Can a Tiny Rogue really work?

[Banatine]

i have a player in a gestalt game (only a 3 man party) im going to be starting in about a week, and he was set of playing a ferret, and i agreed and we worked out his abilities as a tiny character.

However, he's built himself as a rogue/ranger, and i'm worried that the disadvantages of being tiny will make him almost unplayable. as i see it, he can't flank, he can't use sneak attack more than once per turn, he can't even attack without provoking AoO's.

So my question is, is there a way that this character can work outside of being a skill-ferret? because i don't want him to be useless outside of skill checks, and on the other hand i don't really want to make him rebuild his character if he doesn't want to.

[Dragonborn3]

The Lunge feat can get him a 5ft reach, the Natural Weapon Fighting style from the APG can give him two claw attacks, and Shadow Dancer can let him hide in the enemies pant leg before he starts Sneak Attacking!

[IkeDoe]

A weapon with "reach" for his size will give him 5' reach. It isn't clear in the rules, but a creature in the Bestiary 2 does this, makes sense and doesn't seem unbalanced.
As a Tiny rogue he could use a long spear (two handed) made for Tiny people, which will be prolly as long as a standard shortspear. Note that he can't use the Tiny long spear to attack characters in his square or grappling him.
Edit: note that he can't use weapon finesse with tiny long spears, so high Dex builds won't be specially good.

[DeathQuaker]

Since people are talking about ferrets wielding weapons, and reach weapons at that, I am going to assume it is therefore no more ridiculous for the ferret to be able to wield a tiny bow than it is for it to be wielding a ranseur or something.

With this in mind: a tiny rogue is going to have tremendously good stealth and dex. I would build him as a ranged character and build him as a sniper. He should be easily stealthy enough to get within 30 feet of a target (sneak attack range) and sneak-attack a bad guy that way. APG has a number of complimentary abilities to go with this.

[Benicio Del Espada]

You might consider a chattur from Spelljammer. I had a friend who played one as an arcane trickster, and it was quite effective.

Converting from 3.5 to PF should be easy.

[Banatine]

hmm, the chattur seems like a better PC race option than what i had cooked up. Here's the race i made, i based it off the bestiary rules.

Stats: -8 str, +4 dex, -2 con
Tiny: +2 to AC,attack, +8 to stealth
Natural attacks: 2 claws (1d2) 1 bite (1d3)
Darkvision

maybe the str penalty is too extreme, and the natural weapons can probably go too, i've never been an expert when it comes to balance.

[brassbaboon]

Weapon damage will be a problem for a tiny character unless you house rule some sort of damage increase. Spell casters don't suffer from that, so perhaps he could play a sorcerer and still do full damage.

Perhaps you can get him "flaming" or "shock" weapons which add a d6 to the damage die, and then he might work as a tiny spiked chain wielder...

Why not play a giant (small size) ferret like the giant mouse in Narnia?

[Caineach]

Those stat adjustments seem fine, though I would consider giving him something else as well. You just gave him standard size modifiers. As a ferret, consider what other stat he might have and give him annother +2.

He will be needing a way to get sneak attack on every hit, like every other rogue, but he wont be able to rely on flanking. Ranged attack rogues work well. There are also some skirmish varients floating arround, like the scout alternate class, which gives up uncanny dodge to get sneak attack on charges and moving 10 feet. Add in spring attack and you have an interesting build. The +4 racial AC bonus you can combine with dodge and mobility nicely. The +4 to hit is a huge advantage for a rogue.

Overall, the character may have some issues, but he should deal enough damage reliably that he can be fun to play.

The idea of an archtype that allows you to get sneak attack while on the creature you are attacking sounds like it could be very amusing.

[Dragonborn3]

Caineach wrote:

The idea of an archtype that allows you to get sneak attack while on the creature you are attacking sounds like it could be very amusing.

Again, Shadow Dancer. Go up the pant leg and starting biting then hiding!

[Bomanz]

Squirrels In My Pants?

[Benicio Del Espada]

Banatine wrote:

hmm, the chattur seems like a better PC race option than what i had cooked up. Here's the race i made, i based it off the bestiary rules.

Stats: -8 str, +4 dex, -2 con
Tiny: +2 to AC,attack, +8 to stealth
Natural attacks: 2 claws (1d2) 1 bite (1d3)
Darkvision

maybe the str penalty is too extreme, and the natural weapons can probably go too, i've never been an expert when it comes to balance.

I'll post the 3.X Chattur from the site:

Chattur characters possess the following racial traits.

-4 Strength, +4 Dexterity, -4 Intelligence.
Tiny Size: +2 bonus to Armor Class, +2 bonus on attack rolls, +8 bonus on Hide checks, -8 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 1/2 those of Medium characters.
A chattur's base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-light vision.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
+2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
Use Dexterity instead of Strength to modify Climb checks.
Automatic Languages: Chattur. Bonus Languages: Common, Sylvan.
Favored Class: Rogue.

I'd maybe change the stat mods to -4 Str., +6 Dex, -2 Int. In PF, you usually get a total of +2, but weighed against his 30' move, natural attacks and low-light vision, I think it's enough.

This guy will be hard to spot and hard to hit. The one in our game used a modified hand crossbow for sneak attacking (equal to a light crossbow for his size). We're looking at a +8 ranged to hit before any other considerations. He was an arcane trickster, so his sneak attack spells usually hit for good damage. He carried no melee weapons, and never really needed one. I think he used a wand of shocking grasp or chill touch when he could get in someone's square and attack.

Another race I once played was a cayma from Red Steel, from 1st-21st
level. He was a sorcerer, and contributed very well to the group. I did it as a lark, but learned that tiny characters make great casters and rogues.

A straight rogue or rogue/ranger would be lame in melee, but make up for it with good ranged damage and extra sneakiness.

[Caineach]

Also, I would consider giving him weapon finnesse for free.

[Goth Guru]

For the squirrel build
Move: 20(30 climb)
Attack: Bite 1-2
Gnawing teeth, can do 2D4 to objects not made of metal, bypassing hardness.
Balancing tail +6 acrobatics.