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Hey there. my DM and I had a discussion over whether or not you'd gain the Patron spells when you went Eldritch Knight. I argued that it did, since you gain those spells as part of your spellcasting increased, and he argued that it didn't, because your familiar doesn't advance. Which is the correct interpretation? I figure that sorcerer's don't gain extra spells from their bloodline, so now I'm wondering if you really shouldn't gain the spells from your patron, which would make the transformation patron rather worthless for a multiclass gish.
You don't. Your DM is correct.
Yeah, after waking up fully, I thought that same thing. Derp.
I think Wizard School Specializations are the only thing.... But they are special because their restriction (double slots for opposed schools) is applying to further spell levels gained as well.
Ah, I see where I was getting confused. Abraham Spalding has some posts that deal with builds for a witch EK, and they all assume you get patron spells. Must have gotten it into my head that you do get them as you get spell casting levels. He even mentions Divine Power from the Strength Patron.
I think Wizard School Specializations are the only thing.... But they are special because their restriction (double slots for opposed schools) is applying to further spell levels gained as well.
Also Cleric/Druid domains, although you only get the extra slots, not the domain spells.
Also Cleric/Druid domains, although you only get the extra slots, not the domain spells.
You don't? I always thought you did and I see nothing about it in the domain rules. Have I missed something? :/
Mind you, I'd love to be wrong about it (we even house-ruled it that way), but I think you get them by RAW.
Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot. Domain spells cannot be used to cast spells spontaneously.
In addition, a cleric gains the listed powers from both of her domains, if she is of a high enough level. Unless otherwise noted, using a domain power is a standard action. Cleric domains are listed at the end of this class entry.
Wow, way to stick it to prestige classes Paizo. That's getting houseruled in my games since we actually like PC's, unlike a small loud minority here on the paizo forums.
Also Cleric/Druid domains, although you only get the extra slots, not the domain spells.You don't? I always thought you did and I see nothing about it in the domain rules. Have I missed something? :/
Mind you, I'd love to be wrong about it (we even house-ruled it that way), but I think you get them by RAW.
** spoiler omitted **
Depends on whether you interpret "a cleric gains the listed powers from both of her domains, if she is of a high enough level" as meaning "high enough caster level to cast the domain spell" or "high enough cleric level to cast the domain spell".
The previous paragraph, "Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric" suggests the latter.
Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast,
OK, here´s the break down:
¨Domain Powers¨ are dependent on Cleric Level.¨As well,¨ Domain Spell Slots are gained, dependant on ¨Level of Cleric Spellcasting¨ (which PrC´s advance).
Subtle distinction, but definitely relevant.
I don´t really see a big problem here, all Cleric types (Domains) and Wizard School Benefits are tied to staying in the class, that has been made clear from the start (by Paizo) and is a good design goal IMHO. You started in the (X specialist Caster) Class, and you should stay in that if you like those types of powers. PrCs may be available that grant you other, additional powers, and you can take them if that´s your schtick.
The only problem is that Eldritch Knight is a joke... Not remotely even fulfilling Paizo´s stated standards for PRPG (removing empty levels, etc). But they´ve apparently replaced it with the Magus (NOT a PrC, but since their ElK Iconic would apparently be re-built as a Magus according to JJ, Magus is the new ElK by my book), so you´re free to ignore it (besides warning off new players it´s crap, or at best filler).
Depends on whether you interpret "a cleric gains the listed powers from both of her domains, if she is of a high enough level" as meaning "high enough caster level to cast the domain spell" or "high enough cleric level to cast the domain spell".
The previous paragraph, "Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric" suggests the latter.
Aaah, I see it now. The problem is, I guess, whether you consider domain spells as "domain powers" (depending on cleric level) or just "bonus spells" (depending on caster level).
Re: ElK. Yes, it's disappointing; and now that we have the Magus, it's never going to get fixed. Maybe house-ruling the Eldritch Knight to get (some) magus arcana could be a nice fix, though (it'd help fill empty levels).
I thought my quote was pretty clear. The text makes a distinction between ¨Domain Powers¨ and ¨Domain Spells¨ (i.e. Spells are not a sub-set of Powers, but something discrete), which is expressed thru the usage of ¨as well¨. ¨As well¨ is not appropriate when simply clarifying a member of a set you´ve already mentioned, but is used for conveying an additional, discrete subject.
This is further corroborated by the rest of the Cleric class rules. Domain spells are not described under ¨Domain Powers¨, but under a discrete heading for Domain Spells(of each Domain). Likewise, notice that the Domain Spell Slot is DIRECTLY indicated on the Core CLeric Spellcasting Chart (via the X+1 nomenclature), i.e. NOT via Domain POwers. Literally, Domain Spells can be taken as a Domain (Class) Feature, but that is gained at level 1 and scales WITH SPELLCASTER LEVEL... As if you gained a CLass Ability that scaled with BAB, for example. (PrC´s should advance both) Specialist Wizard School SLots are worded similarly, you make the choice at 1st level, and FOR EACH SPELL LEVEL YOU CAN CAST (which PrC´s advance), you can cast a bonus slot of your school (this doesn´t show up on their spellcasting table because not every Wizard is a Specialist, some are Generalist without bonus slots).
...Yeah, as to ElK, I think the writing is on the wall... I did make clear during the Magus playtest that I think it´s pretty poor design to just abandon it (while continuing to print it in every CRB... at least putting the Magus into every CRB would be decent). I suggested the idea of minor Errata to ElK to make it decent (counting as 1/2 Magus, qualifying for same type of Feats as Magus), but I suspect whatever is done will be a 2nd rate bandage... Worhsip your new Magus overlords, ElK.
Re: Cleric. I see it now. You're right, Quandary and Sizik :-), thanks for the explanation (and sorry for the threadjack!).