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Magic Item creation
Please do not move this to the House Rules board. I am not trying to house rule magic item creation, I am attempting to sort out the confusing terminology that uses the word “Requirement” for both something you require from whatever source AND something you can do without AND something you have to have yourself. This is an attempt at rules clarification by changing the vocabulary, not an attempt to change the rules.
Requirement: Something you NEED to make the magic item. Requirements can not be met through items or other casters or items. (its not clear to me whether this category exists for spells)
Coadunation: Something you need to make the magic item, but can be met through other casters or items such as wands or scrolls.
Precursor: A step in making the magic item that you should have, but can work without by adding 5 to the DC. Precursors can be met through other casters to avoid the DC increase.
Magic Armor
Caster level: Three times the bonus equivalent of the armor, or the minimum caster level needed for the highest level spell listed in the armor’s requirements.
Requirement: Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Masterwork armor to be enchanted. Tools (wood, leather, metal) Appropriate for modifying the armor. Sufficient magical materials worth the listed gold amount.
Precursor: Any spells mentioned in the magic items prerequisite description. The creator's caster level should be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor or the DC increases by 5.
Magic Weapons
Caster level: Three times the bonus equivalent of the weapon, or the minimum caster level needed for the highest level spell listed in the armor’s requirements.
Requirement: Feat: Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Masterwork weapon to be enchanted. Tools (wood, leather, metal) Appropriate for modifying the weapon. Sufficient magical materials worth ½ the base cost.
Precursor: Any spells mentioned in the magic items prerequisite description. The creator's caster level should be at least three times the effective enhancement bonus of the armor or the DC increases by 5.
Potions
Now this is half the reason for doing the rewrite. By the RAW, there’s nothing to prevent a wizard from brewing a potion of CLW with or without a clerics help. You also have the oddity of it being easier for a wizard than a druid to create a potion of cure moderate wounds because the wizard is a non caster who adds 5, while the druid apparently has to create the potion as a third level spell. It’s also not that hard, especially for wizards, to brew potions well above their level limit.
Requirement: Feat: Brew potion. Flat working surface. A few vials for pouring. Materials worth ½ the base cost.
Precursor: The spell being brewed into the potion (I admit it is unclear whether this is a precursor or a requirement, especially for the alchemist)
Rings
Requirements: Craft ring. Heat source. The ring (or parts thereof) Materials costing ½ the base cost. 50 doses of expensive material components for rings emulating abilities with costly material components.
Precursors: Any spells listed in the rings prerequisites. Spellcasting level should be 3x the bonus granted by a ring of deflection or similar object or the DC increases by 5.
Rods
Requirements: Craft Rod. The rod (or parts thereof) Materials costing ½ the base cost.
Precursors: Any spells listed in the rings prerequisites.
Scrolls
Requirement: Scribe Scroll. Having the spell memorized or known and an available spell slot capable of casting the spell. Fresh materials worth ½ the cost of the scroll.
Staves
Requirements: Craft Staves. The staff (or parts thereof) Materials costing ½ the base cost. Doses equal to 50/#charges of expensive material components for each prerequistite, Focuses for each spell (not expended)
Precursors:
Coadunation: The spells listed in the prerequistites
Wands
Requirements: Craft Wands. The wand (or parts thereof) Materials costing ½ the base cost. 50 doses of expensive material components for the prerequistite, Focuses for the spell
Precursors:
Coadunation: The spells listed in the prerequistites
I think this is more clear that what exists already, too.
One small thing.
The CL requirement for enhancement bonuses to armor and weapons cannot be bypassed with a +5 CL. It is a 'special requirement' which cannot be bypassed. What that means is, a CL 6 character can create +1 or +2 items, but cannot create a +3, no matter what.
Note that doesn't apply to special properties, which have different requirements. In other words, to make a +1 flaming you have to be level 3+, but to make a +2 you have to be 6+. You use the DC of the bonus or the special property, which ever is higher.
One small thing.
The CL requirement for enhancement bonuses to armor and weapons cannot be bypassed with a +5 CL. It is a 'special requirement' which cannot be bypassed. What that means is, a CL 6 character can create +1 or +2 items, but cannot create a +3, no matter what.
Note that doesn't apply to special properties, which have different requirements. In other words, to make a +1 flaming you have to be level 3+, but to make a +2 you have to be 6+. You use the DC of the bonus or the special property, which ever is higher.
One of the reasons for writing it like this is that the above isn't clear from the rules. Are you getting it from a FAQ, a dev, or your own reading?
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The prerequisite for a caster level on a magic item is apparently no different than any other prerequisite. A bonus is flat out called a prerequisite, the description of prerequisites even uses the same word: "must". The caster level on a magic weapon/armor is a prerequisite and thus can be bypassed.
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This thing comes up every month. The FAQ is utterly useless since nobody ever updates it. I know they say they are going to after UM is off to the printers, but, they said that after GMG and after B2. Until someone gets around to realizing it needs to be done, it's not going to get done.
It's a developers comment, but I can't find it. Do some searches for threads on this, I just spent an hour, but can't find it. Found other people referencing it, but not the dev specifically. (In other words, found people quoting the dev, but not the actual original post that was quoted).
The reason it's so hard to find is there's about 3000 threads on CL and bypassing prerequisites.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
There is something in those rules that some (including me) read differently than others.
Some believe that you can waive requirements entirely by substituting a +5 increase to DC. Who needs to have barkskin to make an amulet of natural armor if you can just concentrate harder instead, right?
I disagree with that notion. I read from the rules that "These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created" - in other words the requirement must at all times be met; barkskin has to be used to make the amulet of natural armor. However, if the creator himself cannot cast barkskin, it is feasable that somebody else helps the creator and casts the spell for him. This is allowed, but meeting the prerequisite in this way increases the DC by +5.
I disagree with that notion. I read from the rules that "These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created" - in other words the requirement must at all times be met; barkskin has to be used to make the amulet of natural armor. However, if the creator himself cannot cast barkskin, it is feasable that somebody else helps the creator and casts the spell for him. This is allowed, but meeting the prerequisite in this way increases the DC by +5.
That is harsh.
That is harsh.
I disagree with that notion. I read from the rules that "These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created" - in other words the requirement must at all times be met; barkskin has to be used to make the amulet of natural armor. However, if the creator himself cannot cast barkskin, it is feasable that somebody else helps the creator and casts the spell for him. This is allowed, but meeting the prerequisite in this way increases the DC by +5.
That is also contradicted by the rules.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
The word must is used specifically on prerequisites that can be skipped over. Must looses all meaning in the description.. that's the problem.
This reading would move anything (that i can think of) that's been defined as a precursor to a coadunation.
Worst part is i can see 5 different way to look at it.
..................................A) Potions, wand, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to Staves)
B) Potions, Wand, Staves, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed.
C) Wands, Staves and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to potions)
D) All magic items can be created with help, and anyone helping can provide the spells.
E) All magic items require the person with the feat to also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (which mean the only help that someone can provide is like blacksmith or carpenter).
...................................
Depending on which rules you consider General, and which you consider Specific. (Which depends on who you ask, see your DM to see how he read it)
...................................
Like i said before, around and around we go, were we stop...is up to your individual Game Master to know.
Unless we hear something official, it looks like it is left up to the individual Game Master to decide which method they want to use. The way the rules are written, and how people have interpreted those said rules, all seem reasonable to me.
Better debated on this tread
RULE ON CREATING SCROLLS AND USING SOMEONE ELSE'S SPELLS
listed as reference.
One common mistake i see reading thro the past post regularly.
If the item is going to be noting more than an item casting a spell x time a day. Standard Action to Use.= Use the Command word ( SL x CL x 1,800)
= Then Charge per day = Divide by (5 divide by charge per day) = To reduce over all cost if less than 5, or increase cost if more than 5 ..............
On the other hand, if you want the spell effect all the time, at use. Then you would use. Standard Action to Use
= Use/continuous ( SL x CL x 2,000)
= If item has duration = If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiple the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1/minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiple the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half. (Instantaneous spell = Create a permanent effect which last greater than 24 hour = Damage/wall spells) (PS) = If you want the spell to be used as many times as you have melee attack to use. Then you need to figure the spell as a Quickened spell, and Quickened feat needs to be added to the items construction list of requirements.
............
On the other hand, If you are not looking to cast a spell, but instead want a permanent bonus to your attack roll and damage roll. Any time you attack, up to your max melee attacks per full-round action.
= Weapon Bonus = Bonus squared x 2,000 gold
= Caster level is 3 times the bonus (( Yes by RAW, there is a loop-hope were this is not listed for wondrous items, but unless you want all your caster to start making Armor out of wonder item, I suggest that this is used.))
= Greater Magic Weapon or Magic Weapon or True Strike spell listed in the creation requirement, is just for fluff. (needs to based off something)
That is harsh.
I disagree with that notion. I read from the rules that "These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created" - in other words the requirement must at all times be met; barkskin has to be used to make the amulet of natural armor. However, if the creator himself cannot cast barkskin, it is feasable that somebody else helps the creator and casts the spell for him. This is allowed, but meeting the prerequisite in this way increases the DC by +5.
That is also contradicted by the rules.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
The word must is used specifically on prerequisites that can be skipped over. Must looses all meaning in the description.. that's the problem.
This reading would move anything (that i can think of) that's been defined as a precursor to a coadunation.
I'm not sure why you state it is contradictory. Though I do agree that the other reading is also a viable interpretation of the words; I don't see anything contradictory in my reading.
From my perspective, given that both readings are legitimate, I prefer my reading as it makes the world a more internally-consistent place for me. I do not like the notion that people can create things that they cannot cast in the first place - simply by concentrating hard enough.
Why should a paladin be able to craft a Darkskull, simply by taking +5 (unhallow) and +5 (creator must be evil)? Why should a 3rd level character be able to craft +8 Bracers of Armor by adding a measly +5 to the DC?
There is nothing wrong with having the requirements met by an NPC that the creator befriends. Heck, you could even intimidate a hapless wizard into preparing the spells you need. Or just pay the daily spell-cast cost.
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Magic Item creation
Please do not move this to the House Rules board. I am not trying to house rule magic item creation, I am attempting to sort out the confusing terminology that uses the word “Requirement” for both something you require from whatever source AND something you can do without AND something you have to have yourself. This is an attempt at rules clarification by changing the vocabulary, not an attempt to change the rules.Requirement: Something you NEED to make the magic item. Requirements can not be met through items or other casters or items. (its not clear to me whether this category exists for spells)
Coadunation: Something you need to make the magic item, but can be met through other casters or items such as wands or scrolls.
Precursor: A step in making the magic item that you should have, but can work without by adding 5 to the DC. Precursors can be met through other casters to avoid the DC increase.
I like BigNorseWolf's attempts to clarify the magic item creation rules. Given the huge number of posts about them - can I do this?, do I need to know the spell myself?, what prerequsites can be avoid with +5 to the DC?, etc etc - and difference of opinion/interpretation, there is a clear need for something to be done.
I think the way the terms "must" and "prerequisite" and "requirement" are currently used adds to the confusion and a change of terminology would go a long way to clearing things up.
BigNorseWolf's terms seem to be a great idea - differentiate between:
a. what the creator themself absolutely must have (specific feat, spells known, level etc). If you don't meet these conditions then tough luck.
b. what is needed to create the item but can be provided by someone or something else (spell known/cast by someone else, spell from scroll read by creator, etc)
c. what is needed to create the item but can be met by a +5 to the DC
(creator needs to be a particular level to create without penalty, but can skip if +5 DC applied, etc)
d. potentially an overlap of b and c - if someone/something else provides then you can do it but take a +5 to the DC
This would clarify some of the common questions such as "can a Wizard with Craft Wands create a Wand of CLW". By themself with a +5 for not knowing CLW? without penalty if a cleric is there to provide the spell? by themself with a Scroll of CLW handy? by themself with a Scroll and a +5? or can't cast CLW then tough luck?
Magic Item creation
Please do not move this to the House Rules board. I am not trying to house rule magic item creation, I am attempting to sort out the confusing terminology that uses the word “Requirement” for both something you require from whatever source AND something you can do without AND something you have to have yourself. This is an attempt at rules clarification by changing the vocabulary, not an attempt to change the rules.Requirement: Something you NEED to make the magic item. Requirements can not be met through items or other casters or items. (its not clear to me whether this category exists for spells)
Coadunation: Something you need to make the magic item, but can be met through other casters or items such as wands or scrolls.
Precursor: A step in making the magic item that you should have, but can work without by adding 5 to the DC. Precursors can be met through other casters to avoid the DC increase.
I like BigNorseWolf's attempts to clarify the magic item creation rules. Given the huge number of posts about them - can I do this?, do I need to know the spell myself?, what prerequsites can be avoid with +5 to the DC?, etc etc - and difference of opinion/interpretation, there is a clear need for something to be done.
I think the way the terms "must" and "prerequisite" and "requirement" are currently used adds to the confusion and a change of terminology would go a long way to clearing things up.
BigNorseWolf's terms seem to be a great idea - differentiate between:
a. what the creator themself absolutely must have (specific feat, spells known, level etc). If you don't meet these conditions then tough luck.
b. what is needed to create the item but can be provided by someone or something else (spell known/cast by someone else, spell from scroll read by creator, etc)
c. what is needed to create the item but can be met by a +5 to the DC(creator needs to be a particular level to create without penalty, but can be a lower level if +5 DC applied, etc)
d. potentially an overlap of b and c - if someone/something else provides then you can do it but take a +5 to the DC
This would clarify some of the common questions such as "can a Wizard with Craft Wands create a Wand of CLW". By themself with a +5 for not knowing CLW? without penalty if a cleric is there to provide the spell? by themself with a Scroll of CLW handy? by themself with a Scroll and a +5? or can't cast CLW then tough luck?
I'm not sure why you state it is contradictory. Though I do agree that the other reading is also a viable interpretation of the words; I don't see anything contradictory in my reading.
DOH! I think i misread what you said to the point of thinking you said that without being able to cast the spell yourself you couldn't make the item at all, forcing the poor druids back into Amulet of natural armor factories. (and was writing a page long rebuttal to that before noticing my mistake)
Yeah.. i see what you're saying. Under your interpretation There would be no precursors and Coadunations would increase the DC by 5. I can see reading it that way.
What makes me think its the wrong interpretation though is that
1) there are non spell prerequisites (such as creator must be an elf or have X ranks in Y skill)
2) Prerequisites can be worked around by adding 5 to the dc(this is stated explicitly)
3) The only way working around such pre reqs is possible is under the interpretation that meeting a pre req (for most items) via a friend or through your own power winds up being the same and that only missing the pre req completely results in the DC increase
I think you are all missing something in the "wizard making a wand of CLW without using the spell by adding 5 to the DC" debate that is critical to wand, staff and scroll creation. From the RAW, at the end of the paragraph describing the +5 DC for missing prerequisites:
"In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
Wands and staves are spell trigger items, so you need the spell prerequisites, or access to someone who is willing to assist.
Scrolls are spell-completion items, and have the same requirement.
I think we actually are all aware of that issue. It's not a question of spell-trigger versus spell-completion, or specific examples such as the Wand of CLW one, it's that the rules are too open to different interpretations. Putting my real life editor's hat on, I think part of the problem is inconsistent use of the term "must". In the general description below, the use of "must" has the optional +5 DC, except for the item creation feat which is "mandatory"
From PRD: (my italics)
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
but in the specific feat description you get (again my italics):
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)
So, when is a must not a must? When is must a synonym for mandatory? The "only exception" suggests that that is the only exception. Hence the suggestion that different - and consistent - wording be used. Perhaps the addition of something along the lines of....
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard). This requirement cannot be avoided through an increase to the DC
I don't think it is a difficult issue to resolve, provided Paizo does some pretty straightforward amendments to aspects of the wording and terminology used in the creating magic items rules.
I think you are all missing something in the "wizard making a wand of CLW without using the spell by adding 5 to the DC" debate that is critical to wand, staff and scroll creation. From the RAW, at the end of the paragraph describing the +5 DC for missing prerequisites:
Not missing a thing.
My rational for treating scrolls like a requirement and wands like a Coadunation is the specific wording in scribe scroll is mostly a hold over from 3.5. By a strict reading of the raw in pathfinder you can get assistance with both of them.
One small thing.
The CL requirement for enhancement bonuses to armor and weapons cannot be bypassed with a +5 CL. It is a 'special requirement' which cannot be bypassed. What that means is, a CL 6 character can create +1 or +2 items, but cannot create a +3, no matter what.
Note that doesn't apply to special properties, which have different requirements. In other words, to make a +1 flaming you have to be level 3+, but to make a +2 you have to be 6+. You use the DC of the bonus or the special property, which ever is higher.
The way I read the rules there are only two exceptions to the "I can bypass this requirement" rule.
1. The item creation feat
2. Creator must cast spells for spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items.
Context matters.
That is harsh.
I read from the rules that "These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created" - in other words the requirement must at all times be met; barkskin has to be used to make the amulet of natural armor. However, if the creator himself cannot cast barkskin, it is feasable that somebody else helps the creator and casts the spell for him. This is allowed, but meeting the prerequisite in this way increases the DC by +5.
Harsh, but a valid interpretation of the rules. I concur with this assessment.
Harsh, but a valid interpretation of the rules. I concur with this assessment.That is harsh.
I read from the rules that "These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created" - in other words the requirement must at all times be met; barkskin has to be used to make the amulet of natural armor. However, if the creator himself cannot cast barkskin, it is feasable that somebody else helps the creator and casts the spell for him. This is allowed, but meeting the prerequisite in this way increases the DC by +5.
So how do you interpret a prerequisite like "Creator must be an elf?"
"The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory" implies that prerequisites can be bypassed entirely, since its stated that they are often, but not always, spells.
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I wish I could find the thread where the devs commented on this.
The gist of it was, the 'bypass prerequisites' only referred to those listed in the 'prerequisites' section of the item description. So, if the item says it takes Dancing Lights to make, then you can add +5 if you don't have dancing lights.
However, anything called out in the item creation section was not a prerequisite, it was a hard requirement. That means the 3xCaster Level for enhancement bonuses are non-avoidable. Because they are not listed in the prereq section of the item, they are listed in the creation notes at the beginning of the chapter.
Harsh, but a valid interpretation of the rules. I concur with this assessment.That is harsh.
I read from the rules that "These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created" - in other words the requirement must at all times be met; barkskin has to be used to make the amulet of natural armor. However, if the creator himself cannot cast barkskin, it is feasable that somebody else helps the creator and casts the spell for him. This is allowed, but meeting the prerequisite in this way increases the DC by +5.
So how do you interpret a prerequisite like "Creator must be an elf?"
"The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory" implies that prerequisites can be bypassed entirely, since its stated that they are often, but not always, spells.
I think I'd take the rules at face value:
If the caster (let's read "creating character - the one with the creation feat" for clarity here, otherwise helpers will make this a very convoluted thought process) - so if the creator does not meet the prerequisites, then the DC goes up by +5. This does not mean that the prerequisites can be skipped entirely - simply that there is a penalty for the creator if he does not meet the prerequisites himself. Because: "These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created" - increasing the DC by +5 is not meeting a prerequisite, that is a penalty for not meeting it yourself. If the intention was that prerequisites could be paid for with DC, then the sentence that prerequisites have to be met is redundant in its entirety and adds nothing to the rules.
By that reading it is perfectly valid for an elf to help the human crafter to make an elven cloak. Also it is valid for a level 16 wizard to help a level 3 crafter to make +8 bracers of armor. Both cases with a +5 increase to DC.
Otherwise you end up with the non-sense notion that a level 3 crafter can create a +2 bracers of armor as easily as a +8 bracers of armor. That, I'd say, is patently absurd.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.There is something in those rules that some (including me) read differently than others.
Some believe that you can waive requirements entirely by substituting a +5 increase to DC. Who needs to have barkskin to make an amulet of natural armor if you can just concentrate harder instead, right?
I disagree with that notion. I read from the rules that "These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created" - in other words the requirement must at all times be met; barkskin has to be used to make the amulet of natural armor. However, if the creator himself cannot cast barkskin, it is feasable that somebody else helps the creator and casts the spell for him. This is allowed, but meeting the prerequisite in this way increases the DC by +5.
i agree with Lorekeeper on this one. it could be interpreted in different ways. and usually people only see what they want to see.
prd-
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their DESCRIPTIONS. These prerequisites MUST be met for the item to be created."
this could easily be interpreted, and possibly even correct, that the requirements MUST be met by the items crafter or a helper. it says MUST it doesn't say might,maybe,may,usually,in most cases, or sometimes but MUST.
"Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."
This reinforces the previous portion that the requirement MUST be met and how to meet it if the items creator cannot.
"The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet."
notice this says CASTER, it does not say the items creator. this implies that the +5 to the DC can only be taken on prerequisites that involve casting something. or why would it say caster and not creator? it could be a wrong word choice but thats how the RULE IS WRITTEN. It even refers to CREATOR and not CASTER further on under magic item creation. SO if you have a caster helping you create a magic item and he's needed to provide the needed spells or provide the CL because the CREATOR can't provide those spells i would interpret it as the creator would have to ADD a +5 for each of the item prerequisites the helping castor does not meet. Afterall you don't simple cast the spell and be done with it. under creating weapons and armor it says this.
"The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)"
to me since its the act of working on the item that triggers the spell, your helper just does not just cast say fireball and leave. this leads me to believe he must be there working on the item for the same 8 hours the creator is and the magic is siphoned away into the item as it's crafted, which takes days and not just 3 seconds for a helper to cast a spell and leave and come back tomorrow. this is why it would make sense the Helper would have to know just as much as the creator or he would get in the way and interrupt the creator as the creator explains how to do everything and makes it harder to create the item, say a +5 to the DC for each prerequisite the helper does not meet!
"The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory."
this could be interpreted as meaning a helping caster must have the same item creation feat as the creator is working on. like i mentioned above the helper is actually...well helping create the magic item he does just knock on the door walk in cast firball and go home for the day.
In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
that part is the only part of creating magic item that is really clear. It says YOU specifically, so a helper is out of the question in this case.
PRD-
"Creating a magic weapon has a SPECIAL prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities."
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their DESCRIPTIONS. These prerequisites MUST be met for the item to be created."
3x the enchantment bonus is a SPECIAL prerequisite it's not a generalized prerequisite nor is it even in the items DESCIPTION as stated above...
@ raging hobbit it seems harsh but is it really? after all you might not be able to create EVERY magic item by yourself but you DO get some at 1/2 the cost! And what makes more sense? A level 15 Arch wizard creating a +5 sword or a 5th level wizards apprentice crafting a +5 magic sword by throwing gold on the table and concentrating harder!!!?
@BigNorseWolf- mine an lorekeepers interpretation is no more contradictory than YOUR interpretation... it doesn't make my way the right way, or the intended way, it could be, but so could yours. Per RAW either ruling could be interpreted either way and could actually be correct. It's only my interpretation on the RULE AS WRITTEN. To each his own. i think the pathfinder rules for magic item creation are broken and confusing, and all the NUMEROUS threads support this. The only true correct way to handle it is for EACH GM to explain to his players how HE is going to handle it and before the campaign begins. problem fixed!
on a side note many people believe you can take +5 to the DC for just about anything. where do you draw the line? with no clear ruling players can get quite absurd about EVERYTHING.
don't meet the CL? no problem take +5
why can't i make a DC check at +5 to cast my spells at 20th cl in combat or even out of combat if im not distracted? but suddenly i can concentrate in a workshop harder and boost my CL by 15?
in order to make magic weapons they have to be masterwork, WAIT i will just take +5 to the DC! its a prerequisite right?
"Creating magic double-headed weapons is treated as creating two weapons when determining cost, time, XP, and special abilities."
NOT IF I TAKE +5!
i dont want to pay 1/2 the cost for the item so i will just take +5
i want a flaming sword but don't want to pay the cost to create a +1 sword first so i will take +5
i know there extreme and absurd but tell me you can't picture any players pushing a GM to go this route...
or even this, and this is a really slippery slope and seems legal by most interpretations-
"In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item."
why would anyone not take +5 even if they had the spell to avoid the costly spell components!?
many will disagree with my interpretation and strictness in creating magic items but at least mine make sense and keeps the flood gates closed....
+1
Thank you mirror-image guy. This illustrates things nicely (even if it is pulled ad absurdum)
I think I'd take the rules at face value:
I'd love to, but they're being patently two faced.
By that reading it is perfectly valid for an elf to help the human crafter to make an elven cloak. Also it is valid for a level 16 wizard to help a level 3...
Now its pretty obvious how a caster with fireball but no item creation feat can help a caster without fireball but with the item creation feat cast a wand of fireball. The pyromancer simply shows up while the wand is being made and casts the spell for the wand maker.
How is an elf supposed to help a crafter make the cloak of elven kind? Does he take the cloak out dancing? Turn his nose up at it? Offer it brie and fruit? Take it to "We're better than all the other races anonymous" or perhaps take it to a war council where they have to save the day but they're going to deliberate on it for 5 years?* Does the elf need to be a caster too, or can the item maker simply grab any elf off the street and wrap him in the cloak?
Otherwise you end up with the non-sense notion that a level 3 crafter can create a +2 bracers of armor as easily as a +8 bracers of armor. That, I'd say, is patently absurd.
Its not as easy.
The spellcraft check for the +2 would be 5 (base) +4 (+2 X caster level) =9.
The spellcraft check for the +8 would be 5 (base) +16 (+8 X2) +5 (for not meeting the caster level pre req) = 26.
The limiting factor on the item creation is a persons cash.
*sarcasm intended for elves and elf lovers, not your argument.
this implies that the +5 to the DC can only be taken on prerequisites that involve casting something
It says pre requisites can be worked around. It doesn’t say only spellcasting pre requisites can be worked around.
to me since its the act of working on the item that triggers the spell, your helper just does not just cast say fireball and leave. this leads me to believe he must be there working on the item for the same 8 hours the creator is and the magic is siphoned away into the item as it's crafted, which takes days and not just 3 seconds for a helper to cast a spell and leave and come back tomorrow.
That’s certainly a valid way of doing it, but 1) you’re supposing a lot of specifics based on very little concrete evidence 2) It would make it much harder to find cooperative casters.
this could be interpreted as meaning a helping caster must have the same item creation feat as the creator is working on. like i mentioned above the helper is actually...well helping create the magic item he does just knock on the door walk in cast firball and go home for the day.
Ok, given that items don’t cost XP to make anymore, if the other caster has the required spell AND the required magic item AND has to stay there the entire time… why isn’t he making it?
In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
that part is the only part of creating magic item that is really clear. It says YOU specifically, so a helper is out of the question in this case.
Its not as clear as you think. It doesn’t say that you specifically have to meet the prerequisites, it just says that they have to be met, and it says elsewhere that you are allowed to meet the pre reqs through another caster.
@BigNorseWolf- mine an lorekeepers interpretation is no more contradictory than YOUR interpretation
I already said that I called it a contradiction based on a misreading of it. The one thing ya’lls hypothesis doesn’t seem to fit is non spell pre requisites and your interpretation specifically is missing is why collaboration would even occur
don't meet the CL? no problem take +5
I remember one of the dev's mentioning doing that, specifically with a pearl of power (level 1) which despite being a 1,000 gp item has a caster level of 17.
why can't i make a DC check at +5 to cast my spells at 20th cl in combat or even out of combat if im not distracted? but suddenly i can concentrate in a workshop harder and boost my CL by 15?
The same reason i can't do differential calculus on a test but if you give me a week in the library i might be able to do something.
in order to make magic weapons they have to be masterwork, WAIT i will just take +5 to the DC! its a prerequisite right?
To the best of my knowledge its not listed anywhere as a pre requisite. The fact that must got thrown around so much is the entire reason for breaking pre requisites into requirements, coadunations and precursors.
"Creating magic double-headed weapons is treated as creating two weapons when determining cost, time, XP, and special abilities."
NOT IF I TAKE +5!
NOW you're being silly.
or even this, and this is a really slippery slope and seems legal by most interpretations-
And this is a slippery slope argument that ignores the fact that not everything you've listed above is called out as a prerequisite, and that only items called out in the description for that specific item or in the general rules AS pre requisites are being considered prerequisites. In the system above i DO have requirements that can't be worked around so obviously I'm not sending item creation pel mel into anarchy.
why would anyone not take +5 even if they had the spell to avoid the costly spell components!?
Because nothing you quoted suggested anything was a prerequisite.
many will disagree with my interpretation and strictness in creating magic items but at least mine make sense and keeps the flood gates closed....
I prefer channel locks to dams myself.
-dammit, you two have the same picture. This is like talking to the wonder twins...
Otherwise you end up with the non-sense notion that a level 3 crafter can create a +2 bracers of armor as easily as a +8 bracers of armor. That, I'd say, is patently absurd.Its not as easy.
The spellcraft check for the +2 would be 5 (base) +4 (+2 X caster level) =9.
The spellcraft check for the +8 would be 5 (base) +16 (+8 X2) +5 (for not meeting the caster level pre req) = 26.
The limiting factor on the item creation is a persons cash.
Ah, I can see that reading. I read the description of "5 + Caster Level of the item"; which is "7" for bracers of armor. Again not particularly clear; as "7" is more than the minimum caster level requirement to make the item - but also much less than the highest variant.
So how do you interpret a prerequisite like "Creator must be an elf?"
Just like any other prerequisite. If the creator can not fill the requirement, another (elf) can help him.
In this case I would rule that the elf would need the requisite item creation feat.
Unless there is a rule that I haven't read, this would be a good interpretation.
So how do you interpret a prerequisite like "Creator must be an elf?"
Just like any other prerequisite. If the creator can not fill the requirement, another (elf) can help him.
In this case I would rule that the elf would need the requisite item creation feat.
Unless there is a rule that I haven't read, this would be a good interpretation.
Again... why not just have the elf make it?
1) The overall design philosophy of pathfinder is to be LESS restrictive than 3.5
2) Only wizards and clerics would be able to make items by themselves under your interpretations. Sorcerers would be left completely out in the cold.
3) I can't find anything that connects having 5 added to the dc with any wording such as "in cooporation with another caster with the magic item creation feat"
4) The master craftsman feat would be completely useless. The master craftsman would have to go running to a wizard with the item creation feat in order to create items because he can never meet the pre reqs. There would be no point to this feat under your interpretation.
5) Statements from the devs about skipping prerequisites in the prerequisites description without any mention of using another caster to do so.
Again... why not just have the elf make it?So how do you interpret a prerequisite like "Creator must be an elf?"
Just like any other prerequisite. If the creator can not fill the requirement, another (elf) can help him.
In this case I would rule that the elf would need the requisite item creation feat.
Unless there is a rule that I haven't read, this would be a good interpretation.
Because you may need to search out an elf with the item creation feat. If he's in your party...sure, but if he's hired help, you are not going to get the item at 1/2 the base price.
Because you may need to search out an elf with the item creation feat.
I don't see an answer to my question there. Why would you have the item creation feat so that you could search out someone else with the item creation feat to make your items? It defeats the entire point of having the feat yourself.
Also, if you're going to read must as must you can't even do that much. The creator MUST be an elf.
This doesn't mesh well with the line that things in the prerequisite line can be avoided by adding 5 to the dc because "Creator must be an elf" is in the prerequisite line.
If he's in your party...sure, but if he's hired help, you are not going to get the item at 1/2 the base price.
Under this interpretation, why would anyone ever take craft wondrous item or anything but scrolls really?
Can you show me one wondrous item that someone with the master craftsman feat could make under your interpretation?
Because you may need to search out an elf with the item creation feat.I don't see an answer to my question there. Why would you have the item creation feat so that you could search out someone else with the item creation feat to make your items? It defeats the entire point of having the feat yourself.
Also, if you're going to read must as must you can't even do that much. The creator MUST be an elf.
This doesn't mesh well with the line that things in the prerequisite line can be avoided by adding 5 to the dc because "Creator must be an elf" is in the prerequisite line.
If he's in your party...sure, but if he's hired help, you are not going to get the item at 1/2 the base price.Under this interpretation, why would anyone ever take craft wondrous item or anything but scrolls really?
Can you show me one wondrous item that someone with the master craftsman feat could make under your interpretation?
Wow...where do I begin. I must not have explained myself well enough earlier.
The creator must have the spell cast or have someone on hand who can fill the prerequisite.
If a cleric wanted to make a necklace of fireballs, he would have to have fireball cast everyday during item creation by an arcane caster that knows fireball. This would add +5 to the DC because "The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster(creator)does not meet."
Therefore, in the case of the racial dependent prerequisite (cloak of elvinkind) the creator (who is not an elf) would need an elf to help him fill that prerequisite. Because the creator himself did not meet the prerequisite, add 5 to the DC. The prereq was still filled (by the assisting elf). That prereq can be overcome by using outside help and adding 5 to the DC. I simply tacked on that the elf assisting would need the item creation feat also (there may not be an elf in the party with the item creation feat, therefore the player may need to seek help outside the party)
Then you asked, Why not make the elf make the cloak?
Then, I responded that if you got outside help (there may not be an elf in the party with the item creation feat) and had someone else (likely not in the party) make the cloak for you, you would not be able to acquire the cloak for 1/2 base price. The outside help, which is now the creator, would charge you full base price for the cloak.
If you're not going to get most (or any really) items at 1/2 the base costs because its hard to meet all of the prerequisites yourself, why invest in the feat? What you have people doing is shopping for help instead of shopping for magical items. There's no functional difference between trying to find an NPC wizard to commission items off of and finding NPC's to assist you in the creation process: either way you need an npc. By your reading you need the NPC there for exactly the same time whether they are helping you make the item or they are making the item for you... which would result in paying them the same.
Then, I responded that if you got outside help
By your reading you CANNOT do this. It says that the CREATOR must be an elf, and there is no mechanism for donating your "elfiness" the same way that one can donate a spell.
Can you show me one wondrous item that someone with the master craftsman feat could make under your interpretation? Your interpretation seems ok under the bark, iffy under the trees, and seems to lead to nonsensical conclusions under the forest.
If you're not going to get most (or any really) items at 1/2 the base costs because its hard to meet all of the prerequisites yourself, why invest in the feat?
If you are the creator, you get 1/2 the base price. If the outside help is the creator you get full base price.
What you have people doing is shopping for help instead of shopping for magical items. There's no functional difference between trying to find an NPC wizard to commission items off of and finding NPC's to assist you in the creation process: either way you need an npc. By your reading you need the NPC there for exactly the same time whether they are helping you make the item or they are making the item for you... which would result in paying them the same.
Yes, see spellcasting services under equipment:
Spellcasting Caster level × spell level × 10 gp3
3 See spell description for additional costs. If the additional costs put the spell's total cost above 3,000 gp, that spell is not generally available. Use a spell level of 1/2 for 0-level spells to calculate the cost.
Then, I responded that if you got outside helpBy your reading you CANNOT do this. It says that the CREATOR must be an elf, and there is no mechanism for donating your "elfiness" the same way that one can donate a spell.
The Magic Item Creation requirements also say, "these prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that MUST be known by the item's creator(although access through another magic item or spellcaster (elf?) is allowed.)"
There are only 2 exceptions to the "this prereq can be circumvented" rule:
1) the item creation feat
2) spell prereqs for spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items.
Also, on this, note what I said before, I have no rule to point to that says the prereq has to be filled this way (with the help of an elf with the same item creation feat). It was just a possible solution to the problem.
Can you show me one wondrous item that someone with the master craftsman feat could make under your interpretation? Your interpretation seems ok under the bark, iffy under the trees, and seems to lead to nonsensical conclusions under the forest.
I can assume this part of your question is ironic and meant to make light of our discussion. Accusing me of being nonsensical, as this fey part of your retort made absolutely no sense. Good show, old chap.
The whole idea of this thread was not to fall into an argument about whether person X can create item Y with or without the help of person Z.
All the posts that do go into those specifics are merely further illustrating the OP's original point, and mine, that the rules are open to interpretation.
I don't care whether a cleric can create a Necklace of Fireballs or not, irrespective of the mechanics of doing so, were he able to do so.
I just want the rules clarified - whether that be a few editiorial tweaks, use of a difference series of words for prerequisite, requirement, must etc, or even a complete rewrite to better express the mechanics the devs want in the game.
If you are the creator, you get 1/2 the base price. If the outside help is the creator you get full base price.
This doesn't make any sense. The WORDS are fine, but the scenario is not.
Yorik is a PC without any item creation feats. An NPC wizard with the craft wondrous item feat needs to sit in his shop for 8 hours on monday and 8 hours on tuesday to make a cloak of elven kind for Yorik. Either he will charge yorik 2,500 gp for a finished cloak, or yorik will have to bring him 1,250 gp worth of raw ingredients and he will charge yorik 1,250 gp for his time resulting in a cost of 2,500gp for the cloak.
OR
Yorik hits 3rd level and gets Craft wondrous item. His previous cloak having been lost in the dire poodle incident of 06, he finds the same elf and puts in for another one. What you're saying is that the same elf needs to work 8 hours on monday and 8 hours on tuesday.. but will not be charging Yorik anything. That doesn't make any sense to me. Or, if he charges yorik, then yorik wasted his feat.
Yes, see spellcasting services under equipment:
There is no spell to transfer intrinsic qualities, skill ranks, or feats. Yet these are items under the heading of prerequisites and are specifically something you can avoid by increasing the DC by 5.
Then, I responded that if you got outside helpThe Magic Item Creation requirements also say, "these prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that MUST be known by the item's creator(although access through another magic item or spellcaster (elf?) is allowed.)"
There are only 2 exceptions to the "this prereq can be circumvented" rule:
1) the item creation feat
2) spell prereqs for spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items.You're making EVERYTHING an uncircumventable prereq. If you meet the pre req through another caster then you meet it.
Also, on this, note what I said before, I have no rule to point to that says the prereq has to be filled this way (with the help of an elf with the same item creation feat). It was just a possible solution to the problem.It's only problematic within the context of your interpretation: that's what i'm trying to point out, that your interpretation is problematic and thus less likely to be correct. I'm not showing dissonance with the rules to mock you, i'm showing dissonance with the rules to show that your interpretation might be wrong.
I can assume this part of your question is ironic and meant to make light of our discussion. Accusing me of being nonsensical, as this fey part of your retort made absolutely no sense. Good show, old chap.Its a pun on seeing forest for the trees.
You read the "prerequisite must be met" = the prerequisite must be met. When you look at that sentence alone and read it that way it makes perfect sense. (the bark)
When you read it with the entire paragraph it gets a little murky (the tree)
When you read it in context of other abilities (the forest) it leads to this particular conundrum:
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
By your reading, this feat effectively won't work. Magic armor and arms craftsmen can only put +X bonuses on weapons, and wondrous item makers can't make anything AT ALL. The oddity of making someone spend 2 feats and maxing out a craft skill JUST so they have to get a caster anyway (like they would have had to do in the first place) doesn't make any sense. If you read it the way i do, adding 5 to the DC makes it HARDER, but certainly DOABLE.
Given 2 equally valid readings I'm inclined to go with an argue for the one that doesn't make a feat completely worthless.
If you are the creator, you get 1/2 the base price. If the outside help is the creator you get full base price.
This doesn't make any sense. The WORDS are fine, but the scenario is not.
Yorik is a PC without any item creation feats. An NPC wizard with the craft wondrous item feat needs to sit in his shop for 8 hours on monday and 8 hours on tuesday to make a cloak of elven kind for Yorik. Either he will charge yorik 2,500 gp for a finished cloak, or yorik will have to bring him 1,250 gp worth of raw ingredients and he will charge yorik 1,250 gp for his time resulting in a cost of 2,500gp for the cloak.
OR
Yorik hits 3rd level and gets Craft wondrous item. His previous cloak having been lost in the dire poodle incident of 06, he finds the same elf and puts in for another one. What you're saying is that the same elf needs to work 8 hours on monday and 8 hours on tuesday.. but will not be charging Yorik anything. That doesn't make any sense to me. Or, if he charges yorik, then yorik wasted his feat.
Yes, see spellcasting services under equipment:
There is no spell to transfer intrinsic qualities, skill ranks, or feats. Yet these are items under the heading of prerequisites and are specifically something you can avoid by increasing the DC by 5.
Then, I responded that if you got outside help
The Magic Item Creation requirements also say, "these prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that MUST be known by the item's creator(although access through another magic item or spellcaster (elf?) is allowed.)"
There are only 2 exceptions to the "this prereq can be circumvented" rule:
1) the item creation feat
2) spell prereqs for spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items.
You're making EVERYTHING an uncircumventable prereq. If you meet the pre req through another caster then you meet it.
Also, on this, note what I said before, I have no rule to point to that says the prereq has to be filled this way (with the help of an elf with the same item creation feat). It was just a possible solution to the problem.
It's only problematic within the context of your interpretation: that's what i'm trying to point out, that your interpretation is problematic and thus less likely to be correct. I'm not showing dissonance with the rules to mock you, i'm showing dissonance with the rules to show that your interpretation might be wrong.
I can assume this part of your question is ironic and meant to make light of our discussion. Accusing me of being nonsensical, as this fey part of your retort made absolutely no sense. Good show, old chap.
Its a pun on seeing forest for the trees.
You read the "prerequisite must be met" = the prerequisite must be met. When you look at that sentence alone and read it that way it makes perfect sense. (the bark)
When you read it with the entire paragraph it gets a little murky (the tree)
When you read it in context of other abilities (the forest) it leads to this particular conundrum:
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
By your reading, this feat effectively won't work. Magic armor and arms craftsmen can only put +X bonuses on weapons, and wondrous item makers can't make anything AT ALL. The oddity of making someone spend 2 feats and maxing out a craft skill JUST so they have to get a caster anyway (like they would have had to do in the first place) doesn't make any sense. If you read it the way i do, adding 5 to the DC makes it HARDER, but certainly DOABLE.
Given 2 equally valid readings I'm inclined to go with an argue for the one that doesn't make a feat completely worthless.
All the posts that do go into those specifics are merely further illustrating the OP's original point, and mine, that the rules are open to interpretation.
OP: I am attempting to sort out the confusing terminology that uses the word “Requirement” for both something you require from whatever source AND something you can do without AND something you have to have yourself.
That's all we've been doing. I FAQ'd it too.
I expressed an opinion and I am defending it against rebuttles.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but that is what we do here in the Rules Section. Discuss rules and the possible interpretations of such.
Yorik is a PC without any item creation feats. An NPC wizard with the craft wondrous item feat needs to sit in his shop for 8 hours on monday and 8 hours on tuesday to make a cloak of elven kind for Yorik. Either he will charge yorik 2,500 gp for a finished cloak, or yorik will have to bring him 1,250 gp worth of raw ingredients and he will charge yorik 1,250 gp for his time resulting in a cost of 2,500gp for the cloak.
OR
Yorik hits 3rd level and gets Craft wondrous item. His previous cloak having been lost in the dire poodle incident of 06, he finds the same elf and puts in for another one. What you're saying is that the same elf needs to work 8 hours on monday and 8 hours on tuesday.. but will not be charging Yorik anything. That doesn't make any sense to me. Or, if he charges yorik, then yorik wasted his feat.
No, Yorik can create the cloak himself now while consulting the NPC Wizard once per day.
Like I said before "I have no rule to point to that says the prereq has to be filled this way (with the help of an elf with the same item creation feat). It was just a possible solution to the problem."
Yorik is a PC without any item creation feats. An NPC wizard with the craft wondrous item feat needs to sit in his shop for 8 hours on monday and 8 hours on tuesday to make a cloak of elven kind for Yorik. Either he will charge yorik 2,500 gp for a finished cloak, or yorik will have to bring him 1,250 gp worth of raw ingredients and he will charge yorik 1,250 gp for his time resulting in a cost of 2,500gp for the cloak.
OR
Yorik hits 3rd level and gets Craft wondrous item. His previous cloak having been lost in the dire poodle incident of 06, he finds the same elf and puts in for another one. What you're saying is that the same elf needs to work 8 hours on monday and 8 hours on tuesday.. but will not be charging Yorik anything. That doesn't make any sense to me. Or, if he charges yorik, then yorik wasted his feat.
No, Yorik can create the cloak himself now while consulting the NPC Wizard once per day.
Like I said before "I have no rule to point to that says the prereq has to be filled this way (with the help of an elf with the same item creation feat). It was just a possible solution to the problem."
The whole idea of this thread was not to fall into an argument about whether person X can create item Y with or without the help of person Z.
Well, raging hobbit doesn't even believe that precursors exist, and that coadunations add 5 to the dc. I think the fact that i can phrase that in one sentence is an improvement... but shows how MUBAR the wording is.
Well, in my interpretation there is no need for the helper to have the item creation feat. The idea is that collectively, as a team, the item is made by all requirements being met in-part by all participants.
How would "need elf" requirement work? That comes down to coloring it in roleplay fluff. Maybe the elf helper adds a fresh drop of his blood. Or meditates in the cloak over night. Or simply aids the crafting process as a whole. The fluff is not relevant. What is relevant is that the requirement "elf" is met by a helper - and the crafter pays +5 to have the teamwork not fudge things too much to break the crafting process.
"Master Craftsman" would be good if the wizard in the party does not feel like spending his rare feats on crafting. So the fighter spends two to get master craftsman and craft weapons&armor. Together the fighter and wizard can now create mostly anything that the wizard would have been able to create.
Nope. The fighter attaches "master craftsman" to craft: weapon or craft: armors. If he wanted to do both he'd have to get a second master craftsman feat. So 3 feats to make up for everything the wizard could be doing with 1, and then by your reading he still has to bum spells off of the wizard.
The same reason i can't do differential calculus on a test but if you give me a week in the library i might be able to do something.
Weak sauce. Try solving Einstein's field equations every once in a while.