Ok guys, I am a new DM (DMing for 5 months now) and last night I ran my game. I was SOOO EXCITED for the last encounter of the night. I had a 9th lvl cleric and some undead minions (just to protect the boss of course). And needless to say, it did not turn out the way I had hoped, I am want your guys opinion on a matter.
First round: Everyone is fighting and The good cleric (lvl 6) casts Summons Ancestral Guardian.
Fighting goes on; everything is going well as I had hoped...
Second round: The good cleric casts Silence on the Ancestral Guardians weapon (supposedly it is an actual tangible item, not spirit like the guardian) and sends the Ancestral Guardians to my bad guy!
Fighting goes on; and now im screwed...
Since the bad guy had P from E, the Ancestral Guardians couldnt attack, but all they had to do was stay around my cleric and I couldnt cast ANYTHING! Because of the silence on the weapon. I try to move away and the cleric tells me, "if you move they follow you, even on your turn because it acts like a spiritual weapon…” Though I didn’t know spiritual weapon stayed with the character, I thought the caster had to direct it on his turn???
So here I am with this bad @$$ 9th lvl cleric and I cant do ANYTHING! I cant cast any Verbal component spells (which is like all of them), I am told if I grab the weapon from the spirit and throw it away, the weapon will just come right back to the spirit next round and continune with the silence. If I sunder the weapons it will just re appear. I cant run away because the weapons/guardians will just follow!!! What the hell!
What should I have done??? What would you guys have done??? I KNOW this would not have happend to a more experience and well rounded DM.
As a new DM, I am not as schooled on the rules and I sometime rely on my players to help me out, though I cant help but feel slighted in this situation and I just dont know better.
All in all, my cleric just sat there and channeled negative energy until he died... REALLY SUCKS!!!
Here are the two spells used:
Summon Ancestral Guardian
School conjuration (summoning); Level bard 3, cleric 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F/DF (stone metal image of your ancestor)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect two summoned ancestor spirits
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
You call the spirits of two ancestors to manifest in the mortal world and attack your enemies. Each appears as a transparent image of a powerful, wise dwarf armed with a traditional dwarven weapon of your choice. These spirits move and attack at your direction, each having the abilities of a spiritual weapon, except they can attack different targets and deal physical damage (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing, according to the weapon the spirit wields) instead of force damage. Like creatures conjured with a summon monster spell, your ancestors are not harmed if these manifestations are destroyed.
--------------------------------------------------
Silence
School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object); Spell Resistance: yes; see text or no (object)
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.
I would have broken line of sight with the good cleric, as spiritual weapon states that if the weapon goes out of your sight, goes beyond it's range or if you are not directing it, it returns to the caster and hovers.
Ok guys, I am a new DM (DMing for 5 months now) and last night I ran my game. I was SOOO EXCITED for the last encounter of the night. I had a 9th lvl cleric and some undead minions (just to protect the boss of course). And needless to say, it did not turn out the way I had hoped, I am want your guys opinion on a matter.
First round: Everyone is fighting and The good cleric (lvl 6) casts Summons Ancestral Guardian.
Fighting goes on; everything is going well as I had hoped...Second round: The good cleric casts Silence on the Ancestral Guardians weapon (supposedly it is an actual tangible item, not spirit like the guardian) and sends the Ancestral Guardians to my bad guy!
Fighting goes on; and now im screwed...Since the bad guy had P from E, the Ancestral Guardians couldnt attack, but all they had to do was stay around my cleric and I couldnt cast ANYTHING! Because of the silence on the weapon. I try to move away and the cleric tells me, "if you move they follow you, even on your turn because it acts like a spiritual weapon…” Though I didn’t know spiritual weapon stayed with the character, I thought the caster had to direct it on his turn???
So here I am with this bad @$$ 9th lvl cleric and I cant do ANYTHING! I cant cast any Verbal component spells (which is like all of them), I am told if I grab the weapon from the spirit and throw it away, the weapon will just come right back to the spirit next round and continune with the silence. If I sunder the weapons it will just re appear. I cant run away because the weapons/guardians will just follow!!! What the hell!
What should I have done??? What would you guys have done??? I KNOW this would not have happend to a more experience and well rounded DM.
As a new DM, I am not as schooled on the rules and I sometime rely on my players to help me out, though I cant help but feel slighted in this situation and I just dont know better.All in all, my cleric just sat there and channeled negative energy until he died... REALLY SUCKS!!!
Here are the...
Did you have dispel magic?
In any event there are certain low level spells that you always have to be ready for. Invisibility, Slow, and Fly can own encounters if the other side does not have a counter.The below post is right about there being nothing about the weapon reforming. In the future if the player can not show you something in the book assume it is not true. The rules are normally well written with regard to how things work.
edited: me not paying attention.
You got hosed by the other player. No where in the description does it say the weapon is separate from the spirit, it just manifests with a weapon shaped in its preferred style still part of the spiritual manifestation.
Otherwise I would make sure on his character sheet he actually had the casting component listed for this on his/her character sheet (statues of ancestor), and remember you can always run. Like spiritual weapon this is the most important line to remember for what happened to you
"If the weapon goes beyond the spell range, if it goes out of your sight, or if you are not directing it, the weapon returns to you and hovers." because the spell says it is similar to Spiritual weapon this line applies.
Sometimes the players get one up on the DM, then the next time you see them cast that spell, wait to counterspell the silence spell with dispel magic the next round. Also silence has a casting time of 1 round which means he starts casting it round 2 and it does not go into effect until the beginning of his turn round three, so with a successful spellcraft your cleric could have known s/he was casting silence and countered it.
just a few suggestions.
Yar.
I would also like to point out that nowhere does it say (in ancestral guardian or in spiritual weapon) that the effect/summons stays adjacent to the target at all times, moving even on the targets turn.
They will follow if not directed to do otherwise, but that movement still happens on the casters turn unless the summons stop attacking in order to ready an action to follow.
Moving out of turn or remaining adjacent to a target at all times regardless of the targets movement is an exception to the normal rules, and if an effect is supposed to do that, it will be explicitly stated in the description. If it is not, the normal rules (for movement, initiative, and acting out of turn) are the default and should be followed.
Everything else mentioned by the other posters is also correct.
~P
|
Otherwise I would make sure on his character sheet he actually had the casting component listed for this on his/her character sheet (statues of ancestor)
This is outside the rules for dealing with foci; he needs to have a spell component pouch, but items less than 1gp in value (such items are specified in the spell description), are assumed to be in the pouch.
That said, I find it odd that the item doesn't, in fact, have a cost. I would be comfortable houseruling it in.
Yar.
Apparently you posted this in a different section as well. Below are the posts from there, just so that we have all of the relevant conversation in the same place.
I would have ruled that the weapon in question wasn't tangible, since it's treated the same as a spiritual weapon, and that stops the silence from being able to target it since it's not really... real.
Alternatively, take your move action to move backwards four squares (assuming 20 ft move). Since it's only a 20 foot radius, it extends four squares from him. Four squares directly away from him would put you one square out of the range, meaning 'I cast a spell.'
Otherwise, consider a Metamagic Rod of Silent Spell, for casting in just such an occasion.
Yes, but the cleric was telling me, "If you move back, they follow" On my turn, not his. I move, they are attached to my hip??? Does that sound right??? Or I move and they move on his turn???
Summoned creatures and the like have a specific spot in initiative, which defaults to the same time as the caster of the spell (When the creature was making its attack rolls, I'm guessing). The only way he could have moved during your cleric's turn would be if you triggered an ability like Step Up or No Escape. Seeing as how this isn't a barbarian and has no feats... I'd say your players pulled one over on you.
EDIT: Unless they had the summoned creature ready an action to follow you if you moved. Then it's legit... but if they were attacking they couldn't have done that.
|
|
I would not allow ancestral guardian to be targeted with a Silence spell. I do not think a non-creature should be a valid target; it can target a point, a creature, or an object. Ancestral guardian isn't any of those. Neither is his ghostly, intangible weapon. If the player insists that they are creatures, ask for a stat block. Once they have a stat block, you can kill them, destroy their weapons, etc. If they were creatures, your negative energy would have done them in pretty quickly.
That said, a 9th-level cleric can definitely cast Silent Dispel Magic. Which is an awesome trick.
Even if they had gotten sundered weapons back, or new weapons when the others were thrown away, that doesn't mean Silence is re-cast on them automatically.
Such a high-level cleric could probably also just wade into melee along with the mooks. The PC's can no longer cast spells, either, because they're in the radius of the same spell! Won't work if the PC's can run away, but maybe you could back them into a corner.
Sometimes, even an experienced DM gets caught off-guard. And sometimes, you can't think of anything to come back with. That's okay, the PC's need their victories. Just make sure the same trick doesn't work twice, and that the next fight is a little harder.
Yes, but the cleric was telling me, "If you move back, they follow" On my turn, not his. I move, they are attached to my hip??? Does that sound right??? Or I move and they move on his turn???
Summoned creatures and the like have a specific spot in initiative, which defaults to the same time as the caster of the spell (When the creature was making its attack rolls, I'm guessing). The only way he could have moved during your cleric's turn would be if you triggered an ability like Step Up or No Escape. Seeing as how this isn't a barbarian and has no feats... I'd say your players pulled one over on you.
EDIT: Unless they had the summoned creature ready an action to follow you if you moved. Then it's legit... but if they were attacking they couldn't have done that.
Short answer is you have some clever players, but they so hosed you.
First, the summons can't follow you immediately. They act directly after the caster that summoned them. If you felt like being a total lawyer you could ask him how he's directing, seeing as they can't hear a word he says.
Since they can't attack the cleric, they don't threaten him. Cleric can take a move action, get out of the silence and use a standard to cast.
Summoned creatures can be killed, and the weapons they have can be destroyed as well. In this case, their weapons are magical so they're a little harder to break- but it can be done.
As DM strategies- a level 9 cleric, heck any level 9 caster should have some tricks. Boots of jump, or better yet since he's a creepy cleric, spider climb. Run up the ceiling out of the area of effect!
Or if we're going for the undead feel- something that gives him burrow. That might be the most amusing one. Evil cleric falls backwards and sinks into the ground. Proceed to summon nonsense from below out of range of the silence or after it wears off.
|
Personally I think you got yoinked by your players.
Being a new DM, not as familiar with the rules as some others (maybe), probably still nervous running the game.
Now whether this is because they were just trying to get a fast one on you, or thought they were in trouble so were bending the rules to save themselves is up to debate.
I think the right interpretation is that the Silence spell should not have been on the Guardians. They are transparent force effects acting in many ways like a spiritual hammer spell, except they deal physical damage.
Notice the SR entry. For this Summon spell you check against the target's SR, while for a Summon Monster spell you do not. The Guardians are not physical creatures, while other summoned monsters are.
Allowing the Silence to work still leaves the idea that the Guardians act on the same initiative as the caster that called them into existence. They would not get free movement if your BBEG moved, and being in a silence spell would affect the ability to direct them.
All in all it is no big deal, this once. As you get more experienced you will see through shenanigans like this and get to make a better ruling.
Good Luck.
|
There's a lot of loaded language here, about the players 'getting one over' the GM, or 'cheating the GM', which I think needs toning down.
There's no evidence the players have acted in anything but good faith.
The real problem is the vague wording of the spell.
I thought there had been a conscious decision to do away with spells referencing other spells, "A is like B, except when it isn't" just causes confusion.
It would appear that the ancestors follow the target, like spiritual weapon, the attack bonus, damage bonus are the same, they don't flank, they're still made of force, but deal normal damage.
I would say they aren't a viable target for a silence spell.
But that doesn't mean the players did anything other than think outside the box. Unless you overhear them chuckling about how they pulled off a fast one, it's best not to go in heavy-handed.
All that will achieve is to start an argument.
Just tell them they did well, but you've thought it over, taken some advice, and it won't be a valid target for silence in the future.
That doesn't stop you looking for ways to avoid silence, since they could still have done the same thing in other ways.
An invisible, silenced familiar hiding next to him.
A silenced pebble tossed on the floor once they corner him in a dead end. Good luck finding that, unless the floor is clean.
It still remains a valid tactic for the PCs, even if they don't attach it to that particular combo.
|
|
Another thing - I don't remember exactly where I saw that definition, but in order to prevent complication with rules and too many spells and options - as a DM you're allowed to define 'special non-specific' powers for your NPC - about 1 power for each 3 levels I think.
I usually use this option, and keep 1-2 powers undefined - to be dynamically used in combat when needed (mostly for bosses - where I don't want the fight to be too easy) - in a situation like yours - I would tell them something like: "The evil cleric raises his hands and clap them with a tremendous force - vibration of power emanates from that clap and you can clearly feel the very earth vibrate beneath your feet - an instant later the silence spell is broken and the clap is thundering through the room..."
I'd steer clear of inventing things on the fly to counter player tactics, at least until you get a better feel for what the actual rules allow. If you come up with something way out of synch with the power level of other abilities of that CR, you can wreck the encounter the other way. And if the players know the game better than you, they'll know you're making it up. Best to stick to effects that actually already exist.
If the NPC is a supergenius (18+ in mental stats) you could simulate the fact this person is way, way, out of your experience by leaving some spell slots blank, and fill them in as you go. "Well, that's what he expected you to do!". Be wary of this, as it drastically helps prepared casters, by giving them some spontaneous casting. It doesn't help a sorcerer at all. They'd have to retroactively 'find' a scroll in their pocket.
These are things you should really avoid if possible.
Better to get a feel for what PCs of that level are capable of, and design your NPCs to take those common tactics into account.
1) The Player Character beating an NPC is what's supposed to happen. The PLAYERS are not supposed to be in conflict with the DM. Keep in mind things the Non player CHARACTERS can do, not things as a DM you have to do.
2) There is nothing in spiritual weapon that indicates to me that the weapon moves when it isn't the priests turn, or that it can do anything BUT attack. So holding an action to follow is 1) A little iffy 2) the only thing that the ancestors can do.
3) this is the problem with non core material (where's it from anyway?) The spell is half summon monster half spiritual weapon and all mess.
4) If the dwarves can hold an action, they can only hold a partial action. They cannot make a full move with a held action, the priest can, and should duck out of line of sight with it.
This is a duplicate thread. Please discuss over here. Thread locked.