I thought I'd start a new thread, since I've posted a factoid in one of the Ninja "katana" threads twice of this historic fact, but it keeps getting repeated in contradiction despite what I say.
Below is link to Samurai-Archives.com, probably the definitive source on all things Samurai. I learned most of this data long before reading this site, but with its reputation (better than mine) confirms several things listed below.
Samurai could be Gunslingers, as they too used guns.
Code of Bushido was not something that all samurai followed throughout their history, although called house codes in earlier days, it was only fully adopted during the Tokugawa Era.
Ninja were samurai specialized in covert ops, they weren't criminals, or a secret society of lower caste fighters, they were samurai So trying to say that katana should only be a samurai weapon is confirmed with ninja being samurai as well.
The following is a link posted by the forum admin for that site:
Hm. So Ninja doesn´t need to grant Katana proficiency because that could be gotten from the Samurai class levels needed for their ´day job´ (for those Ninja conforming to that model... as opposed to variant-trope Ninja diverging from that context, e.g. more generic Wu Xia magicky assassins, which seems included in Paizo´s intent since real Japanese Ninja didn´t have magic powers).
I´m not sure about the point of Ninja-are-not-criminals. I mean, if you have noble knights secretly going around poisoning, murdering people, that probably still counts as criminality. Anyhow, I don´t think that´s SO relevant to the Ninja PRPG class... JB´s statements have indicated they´re leaning further away from historicity and more towards pulp with this class than the Samurai.
I have no problems with moving away from historical fact, its only those who argue against history and claim what they say as accurate, I posted this here just to confirm what is fact and what is not.
Fantasy samurai could fit any mold you want and that's fine. But when one tries to corroborate what is true, they are often very wrong.
My Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story is very much a fantasy Japan-inspired horror setting, but in most things, I still rely on historical accuracy vs. not so much, because I am half-Japanese, and part of my goal in creating Kaidan is to inform and educate about Japanese history, religion, folklore and legend. Kaidan is not Japan, but is more accurate compared to most Japanese settings.
However, many historical samurai who were not ninja also murdered, poisoned and performed otherwise despicable acts in the name of their lord. Incidently ninja was not their night job - for samurai ninja it was their job. They were always ninja (day or night).
i have a lot of troubles with the samurais in this game:
first: its feel like plastic one, if the paizo staf took the cavalier from the apg, copy and paste, and only change the name of it
dude, be creative please, i have 1 samurai class made from my self, if u want i can give it to you for feed back.
second: samurai and ninja weapons are diferents, term "katana" means "Sword"
Daito is a samurai sword name (long enough to be used in both hands, light and heavy etc)
ninjato is a ninja sword name (its not a long its not a short, its a daito, can us it wit the rules of sawtooth sabre but 1 dice higer)
both of them uses a wakizashi katana, is "tantó" and the same, the wakizashi was used for samurais to defend themself in theyre Daisho style "means like a weapon and defense style"
conclussion
daito, wakizashi, tantó, kodachi, ninjato are katanas
second: samurai and ninja weapons are diferents, term "katana" means "Sword"
Daito is a samurai sword name (long enough to be used in both hands, light and heavy etc)
ninjato is a ninja sword name (its not a long its not a short, its a daito, can us it wit the rules of sawtooth sabre but 1 dice higer)both of them uses a wakizashi katana, is "tantó" and the same, the wakizashi was used for samurais to defend themself in theyre Daisho style "means like a weapon and defense style"
conclussion
daito, wakizashi, tantó, kodachi, ninjato are katanas
Respectfully, this is horses**t.
I also don't think judas motherf**ker in Spanish is an appropriate forum name.
second: samurai and ninja weapons are diferents, term "katana" means "Sword"
Daito is a samurai sword name (long enough to be used in both hands, light and heavy etc)
ninjato is a ninja sword name (its not a long its not a short, its a daito, can us it wit the rules of sawtooth sabre but 1 dice higer)both of them uses a wakizashi katana, is "tantó" and the same, the wakizashi was used for samurais to defend themself in theyre Daisho style "means like a weapon and defense style"
conclussion
daito, wakizashi, tantó, kodachi, ninjato are katanas
There's a misconception. While "katana" is sometimes used as a wastebasket term for swords, it DOES refer to a specific type of sword style; curved, single edged, and with a certain size to it. To pull from Word IQ:
Classification by length
All Japanese swords are manufactured according to this method and are somewhat similar in appearance. What generally differentiates the different swords is their length. Japanese swords are measured in units of shaku (1 shaku = approximately 30.3 centimeters or 11.93 inches; from 1891 the shaku has been defined as exactly 10/33 metres, but older data may vary slightly from this value). For more precise measurement, "sun", "bu", and "rin" (one-tenth, one-hundredth, and one-thousandth of a shaku respectively) may be used.A blade shorter than 1 shaku (30 cm) is considered a tanto (knife).
A blade longer than 1 shaku but less than 2 (30–61 cm) is considered a shoto (short sword) and included the wakizashi and kodachi.
A blade longer than 2 shaku (61 cm) is considered a daito, or long sword. This is the category 'katana' fall into. However, the term 'katana' is often misapplied: a sword is only a katana if it is worn blade-up through a belt-sash (these averaged 70 cm in blade length). If it is suspended by cords from a belt, it is called 'tachi' (average blade length of 78 cm).
Abnormally long blades (longer than 5 shaku or 1.5 m), worn across the back, are called dachi or nodachi. 'odachi' is also sometimes used as a synonym for katana.
Also, since we're being sticklers for accuracy, any word in the Japanese or Chinese language that is made plural does not recieve a "S" at the end of it. There are several katana, not several katanas. Words are made plural by adding measure words and values to them.
If anything was a Japanese word for sword, it would be "to" or the "-to" suffix.
Nihonto means "Japanese sword".
I don't think there is any one truth behind samurai and ninja historically to prove some of these things true or false.
Samuria Hate Guns: this was true for a brief period of time, possibly longer if you were from the Takeda family ;). So using to justify Samurai hating them in some one's game isn't wrong and it would be historically accurate for an "honorable and traditional" samurai not to use them. Claiming that they never accepted used guns and shouldn't be used in any game based on Japan would be wrong.
For Bushido: it did exist long after the Samurai. Then again the same can be said for chivalry and knights. Still its a convienent way to sum up the codes of honor both were supposed to follow.
Samurai and Ninja: I find it interesting that the link you gave listed Hanzo Hattori as a ninja. Everything I've read has said that that is popular folk lore and that there is no proof that he was anything other then a samurai. It comes from the fact that he had lived in the territory of the Iga and Koga so he knew a lot of people and the territory very well. This allowed him to lead Tokugawa Ieyasu through the territory safetly, successfully throwing off pursuit, after the Tokugawa were forced to retreat from battle. Of course him being a ninja makes for a more interesting story.
Personally I believe saying that a samurai could not be a ninja or a ninja had to be samurai is wrong. Ninja, to me, are a way to deny responsibility for some nasty actions, to save face. Being a successful spy or an assassin depends less on social class then skill and positioning. I am certain that there were peasants and samurai alike carrying out the duties of a ninja. Also I'm a little dubious on what actions people consider ninja-like when it comes to Samurai. Samurai laid ambushes an launched suprise attacks. It wasn't dishonorable, it was part of war. Most of what I've read implies that if you are unprepared for a surprise attack, it's your fault because a Samurai must be prepared at all times. The only thing I've heard that would be dishonorable would be to sneak up on a sleeping opponent and not kicking them awake right before stabbing them. Even then I'm not really sure on that one.
I always enjoyed L5R's take on the popular image of Ninja in "Way of the Scorpian" which was as a distraction for the real assassin. If you survived jumping around from roof to roof in a kabuki outfit and using crappy weapons, they'd start your real training as an assassin and then they'll start trusting you with poisons.
I don't want my samurai using guns (because I don't want to play a game using guns.) However, pointed in the link there were units of samurai who used guns. The idea that only ashigaru used them would suggest that once the Portugeuse introduced the arquebus, they were immediately placed in the hands of ashigaru. Nothing is placed in the hands of the commoner first, ever. So obviously samurai were the first Japanese to use guns. Once they figured out how easy it was to use, they introduced units of ashigaru using guns.
Bushido came from House codes, but not all houses supported there use. Only some houses used such rules. Once Tokugawa came to power, he borrowed the House Codes to create the Bushido. While seemingly 'honorable' its real purpose was to impose control on samurai from the Shogunate, which Tokugawa did readily. But the idea that Bushido was used universally by samurai throughout history is wrong.
Your point about Hanzo Hattori being a samurai is correct. It may also be correct he was a ninja, which was the point of my posting the link. Ninja were samurai, just the covert ops branch of the samurai, whereas standard samurai were the regulars of the military. Both Ninja and Samurai were honorable members of the Japanese Buke class samurai. The point being their was no issues of saving face (until after the rise of the Tokugawa Era and enforcment of Bushido by the Shogun over the samurai) - many famous samurai were ruthless, committing assassinations themselves and were still considered 'great samurai'.
The whole 'loss of face' idea is Tokugawa Era (1600 - 1868), so samurai in many cases committed acts that would be against Bushido after 1600, however before this time, such acts were not considered dishonorable - just a fact of war.
No kabuki outfits worn by ninja in my setting - you won't see it. No sense in proliferating a very wrong idea into a Japan game.
Just to add, despite my links regarding ninja as samurai, in my Kaidan setting, I have origin story mentioning a particular ninja house once being a samurai house, but their escapades get them in trouble with some larger jealous samurai houses who threatened to wipe their house from existence, so the head of the house splits up his sons and daughter to found their own houses among the commoner caste. So ninja of Kaidan are commoners, not samurai.
My point of the thread is for those claiming historical record on samurai and ninja just aren't what they are cooked up to be. There really is a dearth of accurate ninja info online, so nobody can claim anything true about them. All modern ninjutsu schools and tell all books are really guesses, as ninja faded from existence centuries ago - and they never revealed ninja facts. So ninja facts today, don't really exist.
As I said, guns were not something that was accepted by traditionalists for a brief period of time. Generally, when new ideas are introduced any where, you meet a lot of resistance. I admit, it's me being knitpicky but it still means for a time guns weren't proper.
As I said, you're right, Bushido came into being during the Tokugawa Shogunate. Still, how is this different from Chivalry and Knights? All I'm saying is that it is a convinence drawn from a later time yet now applies generally to the modern image as a whole. While it's good to know fact from a game design point going with the popular image helps sell the concept.
For Hanzo Hattori they said he was a ninja, not that he was a samurai that popular folklore says he was a ninja. As far as you saying famous samurai committing assassination, I get a little lery. When I think assassination I think of killing some one so that you can't be implicated. A Samurai who jumps a foe, catching them by surprise, and killing them is perfectly in the right. The opponent should have been prepared and you get to brag about it. Ruthless cunning doesn't make a samurai a ninja. Having an opponent's food poisoned wasn't something you generally bragged about and not only done by samurai "ninja". This is my big problem with your comment. The way you come across is that only samurai could be ninja and that I'm worried that some people think that a crafty samurai equals a ninja.
Some other things: When I said "save face" I wasn't talking about when one rival group assassinates or tries to assassinate a member of another. "We were here the entire time." "We don't condone such acts." "I've never seen this man before in my life." "Those people left our employ three years ago."
As for L5R, they've been implicately stating that Rokugan is not Japan for a while now.
Honestly in all my research, I've never heard of one account where a ninja ever poisoned anyone. They used blinding powder blown from a tube, but that's more for escape. While western assassins aren't beyond poisoning one's food, I'm pretty sure that's a western thing. Most ninja attacks were ambushes, even attacks in one's home, but stabbing one to death, not using poisons. A ninja's primary jobs were spying and scouting, assassination only when absolutely necessary. I think putting ninja in with the same notion as a western assassin is a mistaken point of view. You're drawing tropes of one and applying it to the other. Ninja historicially were not poisoners. The Japanese never used poisoned blades either, that's a western thing too.
So I'm not saying that a samurai would poison someone in honorable duty, because neither samurai nor ninja would do that.
GP
actually, katana does literally mean sword.
Saying sword is like saying blade, edge, cutty thing, they are all pointing to the same object, some more descriptive in your mind than others, but to someone who has never heard the word edge in context to a sword, might think the edge of a cliff and no understand, communication is all relative in that regard.
in 1100 'tachi' was the word for 'sword'. Once the katana became the common sword THAT became the word for 'sword'. Just like modern americans really think of a 'knife' when they hear the word "blade". It's all relative to your understanding if what's being spoken, not what outsiders think is the right terminology.
I once spent time with an elder couple who were both speaking haitian creole (not my native language) they sat there explaining to me that their problem is they have nothing to go with their spoon.
They way they said it, i thought they meant they did not have a full set of utensils (knife fork spoon etc) but in their context, what they meant was they did not have anything to eat, because food goes in their spoon, and the way they said it grammatically was "there is something missing, it should go in the spoon and we don't have it, we need the thing, that goes in the spoon."
Or at least how it translated to my understanding of english.
It took quite some time for me to realize, oh! "you want food"
But the concept of the word 'hungry' (the word being grangou) had not been taught to them as they were not well educated, so they had to use a sentence to define a concept, rather than a word.
those words for hungry, or sword, are developed regionally, so people can stop saying "the thing that goes in my spoon" or "cutty thing that makes people bleed" but people who know what a katana was, might not have a slightest idea of what 'To' means even if it is the same language.
While Bushido Code was one way for the Tokugawa regime to control samurai, it was not the only one. Being that a Shogunate (or Bakufu) is really a military dictatorship, like most dictatorships, the shogun maintained a secret police called the Metsuki, that consisted of both samurai and commoner servants of samurai houses. Any form of sedition and heresy was noted and reported through the Metsuki to the shogun's office.
Kaidan will use this idea with Metsuki being an Inqusitor serving the state. Since Kaidan's state religion is only loosely based on Buddhism only through the Buddhist Hells (Wheel of Life), I've coined the term Zao (read as a conjunction between Zen and Tao). Metsuki are primarily drawn from devout members of the Zao temples/monasteries, thus have access to divine magic.
As always I borrow heavily from Japanese history for my game research, but in the end its a fantasy game, not intended to duplicate everything of old Japan. Just enough to make very authentic, not real.
i think too, dude, i dislike the nickname
but i do not remember when make this account.
sorry by the nickname people, really.
The samurai presented in this playtest, has a bunch of holes
divide the names and functions of the nijatos and samurais swords
other thing you can make is a some like a specializated rangers, but with samurais using a one handed blade, two handed and two blades...
pole arms specializations (not like fighter, but kind of)
etc
Samurai and ninja misconception #1 - the samurai and ninja presented here are historically accurate.
I broadly reject the notion that Paizo should in any way avoid cliché when creating these classes. Historical accuracy matters not one whit here. Although I admire g-p's (and others) depth of knowledge on the topic, the world in which ninja have magic and throwing stars is a more appealing game-world, perhaps because it is cliché and fantastical.
actually, katana does literally mean sword.
Saying sword is like saying blade, edge, cutty thing, they are all pointing to the same object
I'll have to somewhat disagree with this.
Although katana and to use the same Kanji, they are pretty much understood to refer to separate things.
Also, "blade, edge, cutty thing" is a separate kanji that is read as ken. This word (as in boken) is often used to mean "sword" but could also refer to the blade of an axe or knife, in contrast to to, which is specifically a sword or sword-like blade (knife or short-sword, possibly).
Although "katana" can be (and sometimes is) used generically to mean "sword" in the same way that "cannon" can mean "a really big gun", both terms do have very specific definitions and meanings. While the exact early-Renaissance definition of "cannon" has faded to a generalized one, the more precise definition of "katana" is still in common use to a large segment of both the Bugei-literati as well as the main-stream population.
Given this context, I think it is appropriate for the game to define "katana" by its more narrow definition.
FWIW,
Rez
Rex, what im getting at is you are trying to say that everyone that speaks the language is on the same education level.
They are not, especially older generations that did not have the education opportunities.Additionally, younger generations are essentially lazy.
We live in a world were 'IDK' is a phrase people understand, you would believe what texting has done to the the japanese language!
So katana maybe what they use for the word 'sword' in quebec, but new york says 'to' for sword and katana is a kind of 'to'. but anywhere you went and said katana, they would all understand what you meant.
thats what most people mean when they are talking about the 'local dialect'.
Take pathfinder for example, There are TONS of languages, as opposed to other worlds, Galorion has way more than just 'common', for humans.
But lets take something like common for example, which is essentially a mixture of alot of 'common terms' from mulitiple languages used by those who are basically trading or working across cultures.
would the common tounge bother to differentiate between katana and wakizashi for example, or would it just be 'to' for simplicity sake.
there person selling the sword and the person buying the sword both know one is more expensive than the other, and there for do not need a separate word to discuss both swords. so essentially they are just saying sword.
Or IRL, spanish from one country (like mexico) is quite different from spanish in say Peru.
Thats how we played the Drow in second darkness, they both spoke 'elvish' but the drow had developed their language separately over time, so at the point the reconnect, they are essentially speaking different languages using the same alphabet. Like how latin and english are similar but you couldnt understand one with the other, with out quite a bit of time to 'figure it out'
This is essentially how the 'linguistics' skill works.
Try taking 'english' from the 1700s and english from modern america, how much would one person understand the other?
words like 'sword' would stand out, both people know that word to meant he same thing. However a lesser educated person from modern america may have no idea what a 'rapier' is, where as any common joe from 1700 would be aware of the meaning if that, and it's difference from just a 'sword'. but in order for the two of them to communicate, they use the word 'sword', it's easier and gets the job done, and so it isn't 'wrong'.
Like the scene from back to the future, michael j fox walks into the soda shop, and the guy says, "ill have a pepsi free" and the guy says 'hey you have to pay for it', so he tries again "ill take a tab", we dont have tabs here the man says, we only take cash.
If Michael had just said 'coke' or 'pepsi', 'cola' or 'soda' he would have been understood.
In the not too distant past, before electronic communication and a sort of 'standarization' of languages, this was easily the case from region to region in the same country, resulting in multiple regional dialects.
So for example, in japan, it is quite possible certain people just said 'katana' for the entire category of 'swords' where as someone some where else was using 'to', 'tachi' and 'katana'.
Honestly in all my research, I've never heard of one account where a ninja ever poisoned anyone. They used blinding powder blown from a tube, but that's more for escape. While western assassins aren't beyond poisoning one's food, I'm pretty sure that's a western thing. Most ninja attacks were ambushes, even attacks in one's home, but stabbing one to death, not using poisons. A ninja's primary jobs were spying and scouting, assassination only when absolutely necessary. I think putting ninja in with the same notion as a western assassin is a mistaken point of view. You're drawing tropes of one and applying it to the other. Ninja historicially were not poisoners. The Japanese never used poisoned blades either, that's a western thing too.
So I'm not saying that a samurai would poison someone in honorable duty, because neither samurai nor ninja would do that.
GP
wait im missing something, covering one's face with a mask was to disguise one's dishonorable night time occupation, to 'save face' is it were, how is what the ninja did 'honorable'?
that is why the ninja, existed,as to not dishonor the day job samurai, even tho it was the same guy (or guys)
** spoiler omitted **
R.
I was a military specialist in languages. I spent time studying alot of languages, but my experience is in Sino-japanese, which is not spoken on the main land, but mostly the mogolian area.
anyway, my synopsis is based entirely on linguist theory and the study of languages generically, and the history of education in japan. Specifically that alot of people (especially when the tachi was the sword in use by samurai, were not even literate)
during the 1100s, the era of the tachi, that WAS the sword, as the spear, or yari and the yumi were the weapons of choice.
It is a very common technique amongst humans in general in languages to say one thing and mean another, so comming from the outside of a culture, and assuming a knowledge of a foreign language, when in fact, your MORE educated than the general people of the era can lead to alot of asumptions.
Like the weird thing i ran into with the creole people not saying the word hungry or food, and taking an entire breath to use a sentence that could have been said in a word or two.
How the people use their own language, and how someone who is educated (more educated) in it assumes they used it can be quite different.
So hypothetically speaking it is quite possible, people would say katana, when they meant sword, because in their limited experience with swords in general, they have never seen a sword that wasnt a katana, and so to them katana IS sword.
Here is a real world Japanese example: Tiburon. it's a word that means shark right?
Well, it's ALSO the portugese word for shark.
Did the portugese (using a latin/romance language) bring the word to japan? or did they, in their travels learn the word from the japanese??
Difficult to say from a linguist point of view, you would have to go into crypto-liguists and stuff where in writing in which countries history the word appeared first.
However, my educated guess is, although the portugese were a sea faring people, (the japanese stayed coastal) the portugese learned the word from the japanese, and it does indeed mean exactly the same creature, but the portugese had NOT seen one in the atlantic waters (which are deep and cold) until they got to japan (coastal pacific and warm) and were introduced to 'sharks'.
the grammar of the word 'tiburon' also more closely resembles the japanese vernacular (specifically when discussing sea creatures) than it does the portugese verbage and syntax, which is another reason for my assumption.
But I have no proof who the word actually belongs to, other than the fact they literally use the same word with the same pronunciation, even with a protugese accent, the word sounds japanese...
I broadly reject the notion that Paizo should in any way avoid cliché when creating these classes. Historical accuracy matters not one whit here. Although I admire g-p's (and others) depth of knowledge on the topic, the world in which ninja have magic and throwing stars is a more appealing game-world, perhaps because it is cliché and fantastical.
I completely agree, Paizo should stick with the cliches in creating their version of ninja and samurai, as that would be best for the overall Pathfinder fanbase.
I apply a bit more historical authenticity only as it applies to Kaidan, my setting. My class builds are specific for use in Kaidan. While they certainly could be played outside the setting, that is not my intention.
My first adventure features a PC party of gaijin (non-Kaidan) from a typical western setting like Golarian. They are visiting an archipelago of islands, so it shouldn't break the continuity of Paizo's plans for Tian Xia, as my setting might sit offshore. There will be no needs for PCs playing my Kaidan samurai and other class builds, as that will be for a larger AP consisting of Kaidan locals. Something for later in the year.
Again, I have to say, historical notes aside, my setting is not Japan, though heavily inspired by it, much of the setting is not historical at all, as it has been designed as a fantasy horror setting only.
Incidentally, my first Race book, In the Company of Kappa will be released on February 22, 2011.
GP
These are not earth history ninja or samurai so get over it, they need not be any more "accurate" than the worst anime ever.
Do you all gripe about paladins not acting like the "real" knights of Charlemagne? Not all using the right gear?
"knights of Charlemagne were not called paladins however, the word chevalier fits closer."
Alot of folks look at things from the Tokugawa period and think names or stations were cut and dried. They were not. A Daimyo could have retainers that were not Samurai, just as they could ninja. Ninja could be a clan of mercenaries that lived in the Iga or Koga provinces, or they could be retainers of a lord, living with them in the city.
Ieasu Tokugawa himself had a ninaja as a retainer because of his bravery in getting him through the Iga province avoiding capture while evading an enemy force. Was he a Samurai or a Ninja? He was all, according to most sources, retainer, Samurai, ninja and spymaster for the Daimyo himself. He was also a trusted friend. Hittori Hanzo, who is idolized in pop culture as "the" ninja. Two of his sons would also serve the Tokugawas...
Lines of station and title were often blurred. Something to remember.
Musashi was a ronin all his life. He did participate in one battle during the Sengoku Era, but otherwise was only a traveling lord-less samurai. He wrote the Legend of the Five Rings at the end of his life. Really its that book on achieving enlightenment in using the sword that made him famous at all. Thus most of his fame was earned post-mortum, not during his life - since in reality he was not the 'greatest samurai' of them all.
The point of this thread is to mention that ninja are samurai. Not the same cliche, always honorable, armor wearing typical samurai, but a retainer of a lord for covert operations abilities. Ninja were members of the samurai caste. Samurai means retainer, not honorable sword guy - that is just one type of retainer.
As far as castes and stations in Japan, marriage and adoption did much to blur the lines between the defined social system. Sometimes a merchant was particularly wealthy, though was of Hinin caste, so he would marry his daughters to the son of a poor samurai house. Their grandchildren would be samurai and the merchants wealth could enrich the poor samurai house.
In order for Tokugawa Ieyasu to qualify for the title Shogun, he was supposed to be a member of the noble house House Minamoto - he was not. So the emperor himself adopted Ieyasu as a son, thus granting him 'Minamoto' status, and he took the title Shogun.
Toyotomi Hideyoshi, formerly Ieyasu's lord, then eventually they were opponents during the battle of Sekigahara. Hideyoshi however was born a farmers son of the Commoner caste. While still a boy he became a loyal servant to Oda Nobunaga. Eventually Nobunaga elevated him to the samurai caste, then as a General.
There are many cases of Japanese individuals crossing the social lines, based on circumstance.
In my horror setting of Kaidan, social lines are not so blurry. Your caste is based on both your birth family/bloodline as well as your karma score. Even if you marry into the next higher caste, you will always remain your birth caste - due to setting specific mechanics only.
GP
Interesting discussion. My take on Samurai has always come from the Book of Five Rings written by Miamato Musashi. I was taken to understand that he was or is considered the one of the greatest samurai to have ever lived. In his book, which he wrote after 30 years of contemplation and then died shortly after completion, he states that from the time he was a teenager, until he was 30, he fought in numerous duels, with a variety of implements, and always emerged victorious. I say implements, as oars, sticks, or whatever at hand was used. Now, this is my own POV, but the Kaizen concept: from 1 thing no 10 things, from 10 things know a thousand...or whatever way it is passed along, comes from The Book of Five Rings. Hell, in the engineering courses I've taken, most of my instructors described how everything was a "cousin" of everything else, you just need to see how it's related. So, for Samurai to say that they hated guns would be bull, as others have already stated. As a whole, Ninja and Samurai have been too "pop cultured" for anyone today, other than descendents of individuals that were actually Ninja/Samurai to make any kind of accurate claim. And to quote Robert Wuhl, "Pop culture is history."
After all who made the famous ride from Massechuetts to Philadelphia when the Redcoats were coming during the colonial period at the start of the Revolutionary War? Most people will oft quote the poem by Longfellow...and would be wrong. It was a man by the name of Isreal Bissel. Pop culture is history to the undiscerning eye.
although, your information on bissel is not wrong. Neither is the information on Paul Revere. Revere, a real man, a silversmith by trade, did make his ride, although shouting "the british are comming" was very unlikely to be done as his ride was a secret, but we warned garrisons and minute men on his way to Warn John Hancock that "the regulars are coming"
At the time everyone considered them elves british citizens, legally and not "americans".Truth be told it was likely that there was up to 40 riders that night. Paul Revere got a poem because his name rhymes and flows well well with common words of 'action' used at the time.
so both bissel and revere and up to 38 others made rides that night.
A little known fact is Revere was actually captured by british officers that night and later released when they decided to steal his horse, kinda funny.
I actually grew up in New England, and Lived for 30 years in Aaron Burrs Original House on a Farm In Connecitcut. George Washington once slept in what became my bedroom. The Morning after Revere's Ride, That house was set a flame, but was not destroyed when the british landed and marched inland.
In our attic there are still scorched beams used to rebuild the house from the damage of the original....
But back to samurai.
Trouble with any historical account is the word history, means literally HIS STORY.
So if I babble on about Paul Revere or Musashi and someone says "hey who do you know that" I'll say "his story".
What credibility does one man's story have?
Only when it is supported by lots and lots of other accounts/storys.
trouble with that statement is most of those 'accounts' are taken from what someone knew about the subject after having read the FIRST account, so you can't use a copy of the first account to back it up.
Samurai were known to be literate as part of their education (well not the early ones), but people around Revere's time, still not a literate nation.
Literacy in most nations has not become a common thing until the 20th century.
this limits our understanding of history because it comes from the limited point of view of those people who could actually write, or the memory of old timers who then told someone who could write and was interested enough in the subject to publish it, or keep it in a foot locker, written down for someone else to find and publish.
we also have pictures (either photos or drawings depending on the era) but the problem with that is, just because it was drawn doesnt make it true, historical? or fantasy?
If we believed every picture we saw, we would believe that samurai slayed dragons. (wait we do believe that dont we?)
Back then the few who had the power to write had control over those who didnt because if you could write, you automatically had credibility.
As late as the late 1800s, false drugs circulated the world, called 'elixirs' they were wonder drugs that could 'heal you' from any ailment,
people bought them so much it was the worlds single most successful business, the traveling drug salesmen.
99% of the 'elixirs' sold were just liquids containing laudnum/opium. Of course they made you feel better, you were high, and when you didnt have any of this great stuff, you felt bad again (because you were now addicted), so you had to have more!
What did the other 1% have in them? the main ingredient was shoe polish!
Back in those days 'labels' in bottles said 'secret ingredients will guaranteed your health!' well all people needed to hear was guarantee!
It says guarantee, must mean its real!
if we were to read 'secret ingredient today' it might as well say 'poison'
The truths of what were written at the time aren't well very true.
I say this because, alot of what an elderly musashi wrote about himself is more closely related to western figures of the time, depicted by roy rogers and tom mix. Based on truth?
maybe.
Truth?
Unlikely.
Millions of people believed for decades in the exploits of things written in dime novels and later the early movie exploits of hollywood.
We know now it was 90% fiction, but people back then believed it.
The only people you are going to beat up with an ore, is a drunkard that wont get off your porch.
No one fanned pistols and shot all six chambers at anything except a barn 20 steps away to hit it.
And We don't care about any of that stuff because we want our characters to kill bugbears with oars (improvised weapon master, caught off guard) and shoot pistols really fast and kill things with one bullet (pickle method). Oh! and elixirs really do do magic stuff.
These are not earth history ninja or samurai so get over it, they need not be any more "accurate" than the worst anime ever.
Do you all gripe about paladins not acting like the "real" knights of Charlemagne? Not all using the right gear?
Just to understand I posted this thread not as a means to refute any details Paizo is using to create ninja or samurai. The only reason for the existence of this thread is to bring some facts into the discussion. In many other threads "in the historical record" is being thrown around to justify the various opposing points of view in the overall discussion. Often what is being stated as "in the historical record" in fact is not in the historic record.
This post is to correct those mis-stating historical fact, not to tear up Paizo's efforts in creating samurai/ninja for the game - which is something entirely different.
I don't think Paizo should rely on the 'iffy' historical record available, as that would not be condusive to a good game mechanic - use tropes, use modern media renditions, whatever works.
Just don't argue they are wrong, and bring up some obscure fact that cannot be truly verified. Some facts do exist on the subject, and I wanted to point them out.
These are not earth history ninja or samurai so get over it, they need not be any more "accurate" than the worst anime ever.
Do you all gripe about paladins not acting like the "real" knights of Charlemagne? Not all using the right gear?Just to understand I posted this thread not as a means to refute any details Paizo is using to create ninja or samurai. The only reason for the existence of this thread is to bring some facts into the discussion. In many other threads "in the historical record" is being thrown around to justify the various opposing points of view in the overall discussion. Often what is being stated as "in the historical record" in fact is not in the historic record.
This post is to correct those mis-stating historical fact, not to tear up Paizo's efforts in creating samurai/ninja for the game - which is something entirely different.
I don't think Paizo should rely on the 'iffy' historical record available, as that would not be condusive to a good game mechanic - use tropes, use modern media renditions, whatever works.
Just don't argue they are wrong, and bring up some obscure fact that cannot be truly verified. Some facts do exist on the subject, and I wanted to point them out.
what he said. Just because it is written somewhere (even if it comes from the book of five rings) does not make it so.
If I wrote a book about being the best landscaper in the world, and someone found it and read it 100 years from now, would that make me the best landscaper in the world, or the fact that i said the ryobi weed wacker was way better than the shindaiwa (which it isnt) would that make it true?
By the way, I happen to be an unemployed landscaper.
Do you think the credibility of an employed landscaper is better than that of an unemployed one, writing about himself and how great he his?
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R.
Also what we all recognize as part of the shark species in modern marine biology today, were neither considered or called sharks back then, or even in the early 20th century. it was not long ago that gorillas were considered mystical imaginary creatures.
Nice try, but try not using 'today' as the 18th century.
I can't wait for the person who bought a katana for 30.000 dollar to show up here and tell us how it really is.
Till then, I hope that Paizo doesn't listen to anyone who wants it as real as possible. They call the class "ninja" because it sounds better than "mystical asian-golorian sneaky fighter". I still have my doubts that those classes are needed at all, but most of the players who want the ninja, want those that they see in B-movies.
I would for example love to play human-turtle samurai who can travel trough time, so I'm eagerly awaiting that race and artifact :)
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R.
So 'words' that are locally popular (and some times slightly changes from the original) become the vernacular.
And where do you think the populance or arawak a)got their language and b) came from? did they spontaneously combust.
spanish and portugese (along with others) are all romance languages and as such have their root in Latin.
the latin word for shark (pstrix) actually isnt latin, it's greek (lots of borrowing words from each other back on those days, as there is today)
and means more or less, anything big in the ocean. (same word for whale as an example)
but the word wasnt used much, because well the creatures just were not seen much.
So you can't really claim the arawak island invented the word 'tiburon' and the spanish and portugese just up and decided to use that from some natives on an island, when at the time they were the most educated of sea travelers; Anymore than you think 'some guy' at work who hangs out in a country that is well known for a VERSION of an actual language would have more knowledge than a military linguist or the schools/professors he learns what he knows from, or the extensive traveling and time in country he has spent talking with indigenous peoples?
That is mainly where i get my information from, because you see, learning a language at school tells you one thing, until you travel there and speak the language and realize that the people who live there use it a different way and all the school did was give you some vocabulary to play with but grammar and syntax are completely different.
In the same way a crypto linguist learns a language and then tries to decipher the "slang" if the time on some written parchment or tablet.
which explains why there are so many 'interpretations' of the bible and it's cousins.
I own a 400 year old family katana and paid nothing for it. It was an heirloom of family heritage. My great grandfather on my mother's side was a physician as was his entire family line going back almost 1000 years having served the Matsue daimyo of modern day Shimaneken province, and such physicians were granted the right to bear a katana as a mark of station. I have never used it even for testing, though I have held it in my hands - its a family treasure.
You don't hear me going on and on about the katana, and I possess an authentic original one.
And I really hope that Paizo doesn't create ninja/samurai based on any historical aspect. I want to be the one who does that! ;)
GP
Kind of like the word Avacado, the Spanish word for the New World fruit/vegetable, apparently Avacado is the 'spanicized' version of the Mayan word that means 'testicle' as when you cut the fruit in half it looks like a cut-open testicle... word origins are interesting, but go start your own thread, such discussion doesn't belong here.
GP
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Good example. Creole (not haitian) in Louisiana, is essentially, english, but uses words and terms from spanish and french as 'slang terms'. I my self did not recognize the term "ahn yan" when used to refer to an onion.
for those learning english for the first time the words like, "where" and "wear" are extremely confusing. Where is my shirt, and I wear my shirt, could confuse the heck out of some poor guy from brazil (and has).
another good example is the word salsa, to any english speaker that refers to a specific kind of sauce used on tacos, chips and dip, enchiladas, etc. etc. Most English speakers don't realize that when they speak about salsa, or ask for it from a spanish speaker in a restaurant, when they are saying is..."sauce", not a specific kind of sauce.
Nova, another good one, In english is referring to a celestial phenomenon regarding a star. Also, and older model of a chevrolet car.
If heard by an spanish speaker, they hear No Va. which means loosely, "does not go"
So when the US tried to export the chevy nova to mexico, it's sales did rather poorly, I wonder why?
this all relates back to the word katana.
For those of us who are into swords because largely of the game, we are well aware of all the different kinds and category of swords.
More so than most people.
The typical farmer of japan, hardly had is life focused on swords, and the only one he may be aware of was local lords and their samurai and their 'katanas', if you plucked this guy out of where he was in some kind of time warp and showed him a english naval sabre, what would he call it? probably would use the word katana, wouldnt he?
Would i be wrong if i called the katana a sword? not really.
Would I be wrong if i called it a tulwar? yes. but people use the vocabulary they have.
If I told my wife i saw a guy with a tulwar (and that is the only kind of sword we knew) and she understood tulwar as sword (even though she is from japan so is picturing katana) then there you have it, the word katana suffices for the purpose of that communication.
When people come to accept a word or term, its because everyone understands its use and common terminology to mean exactly the same thing.
Interstingly enough, the Swahili word for shark? It's shark.
Care to argue to origin of that word?
I guess I understand the line of reasoning here, but not so sure it lives through practice.
If you showed a japanese farmer from early 1600's an English saber, I'd think he'd recognize the curve, realize the hilt and pommel were all wrong and ask "Is it supposed to be some kind of katana?" at most. He would not refer to it as "a katana".
Farmers who wished to arm themselves knew what was legal to do so with and what was not. What meant death if they were seen with it, and what would not. They would know a katana from any other sword.
Also, calling any sword a katana is akin to calling any airplane a Piper Cub, or any automobile a Mustang. This just wouldn't happen.
I guess I understand the line of reasoning here, but not so sure it lives through practice.
If you showed a japanese farmer from early 1600's an English saber, I'd think he'd recognize the curve, realize the hilt and pommel were all wrong and ask "Is it supposed to be some kind of katana?" at most. He would not refer to it as "a katana".
Farmers who wished to arm themselves knew what was legal to do so with and what was not. What meant death if they were seen with it, and what would not. They would know a katana from any other sword.Also, calling any sword a katana is a kin to calling any airplane a Piper Cub, or any automobile a Mustang. This just wouldn't happen.
Really? so you've never been anywhere in the United States were people call everything that's soda ,"coke"? other parts of the United States call all soda "Pepsi" especially older generations.
You really must travel more, this sort of thing happens all the time.
You are also assuming these people are educated, like you are. They were not. Currently The japanese are one of the most educated countries in the world so that is not longer true.
But a current example could be given with mexico, where many people are forced to drop from school to help supply for their families.
This comes up commonly, I see this often:
Rake = Rastillo in spanish.
Well we have leaf rake, dirt rake, all sorts of rakes, but in landscaping it's common amoung the hispanics to call them ALL just 'rake', it's very frustrating when you tell them you want them to rake the leaves, and they get to the job site and none of them have a leaf rake.
The same thing happens with gravel and soil and mulch, which they commonly refer to as "tierra" or soil, which is just one thing.
Or they can have sand, gravel or 3/4 trap, which is often referred to as "grava", which really just means gravel.
You can get morena (sand) out of those who do alot of stone work, they have no more education mind you, they just deal with it regularly and therefor have a reason to use it, and therefor use and understand the word 'morena' for sand and grava for trap rock.
This is the same as a japanese farmer or other commoner, they simply don't have use for words pertaining to warfare, combat or the like, so when would the come into contact with something else other than a katana.
The american indians intially referred to guns and "thunder sticks" simply because they never had a word for such a thing.
Rifles in modern era are often called "guns", although that term (as anyone int he military knows) is incorrect as "guns" are anything in the 'heavy' department and are only used when speaking about armor or artillery.
Calling an M-16 a 'gun' is exactly the same thing as calling a tachi or uchigatana a 'katana'.
So there for, trying to assume all people everywhere knew as much about swords, or for that matter knew enough about a language like japanese, that has so many characters and variations of characters for slightly different words, just never bothered to learn them or put in them into useage.
You can't 'sound out' kanji, you can think to yourself, That looks amazingly like 'katana' but it is different. But unless someone who already knows what it is, tells you, you don't learn it.
With that in mind, during certain eras the katana was not only wide spread it was literally the only sword, the wakizashi was there and all, but not typically carried by the armored samurai, it was more typical worn in 'plain clothes' primarily as a close quarters sword and for the purposes of ritual suicide.
So so farmer might have seen, been impressed by and had reason to talk about samurai on the march or in some battle nearby or whatnot, but wouldn't have much use for words or know all the terminology about the types and pieces of armor and all the weapons he carried.
there for they just wouldn't 'have' the word for things like do-maru or wakizashi. And might not have learned standard words like 'to'.
Language is on a very "as needed" basis for the uneducated and something alot of us who have been schooled or well read take for granted. But assumptions that the common man hand command of all the words available to what was essentially a closed profession like samurai
(such as katana, wakizashi, daisho, o-yori) is the same as the expecting the chineese commoner knew the names for all the positions and forms of choy-li-fut. It just didnt happen.
Trying to assume education where there was none is what is leading to the assumptions that everyone else "must" know what you know. That is the first step to ignorance. It is also the primary reason why many foreigners do not like visiting Americans that travel abroad, and thinks of them as borish and rude. It's because of assumptions like this, which end up as unintended (and unrealized) insults.
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From my experience the average well-educated Dane (or German or Dutch person for that matter) under the age of 45 or so often speaks better standard English than the average well-educated American, Australian or other native English speaker. On issues of grammar, spelling and punctuation not being a "native" speaker of English tends not to mean much, though on matters of colloquialisms, dialect etc it does. Level of fluency in a particular language is also not a determinant as to whether you can comment on word origins within that language. Otherwise very few professional linguists would get much done as they would spend all their time learning to be fluent in the languages they are studying before they could apply linguistic analysis.....
Compare Pendgast and Bruno's posts and tell me which ones displays a better standard of English....
As for where "tiburon" came from.... many words have come from obscure languages and made their way into others. If "tiburon" can't go from Arawak to Spanish and Portuguese, what about lasso, siesta and a multitude of other words from Spanish to English (some of which probably came originally from indigenous Mexican languages to boot).
While "tiburon" may well have been Arawak for a particular species of shark, and may originally only been used in Spanish/Portuguese for that same variety, over the years it could have become a more general word for shark.
** spoiler omitted **...** spoiler omitted **...From my experience the average well-educated Dane (or German or Dutch person for that matter) under the age of 45 or so often speaks better standard English than the average well-educated American, Australian or other native English speaker. On issues of grammar, spelling and punctuation not being a "native" speaker of English tends not to mean much, though on matters of colloquialisms, dialect etc it does. Level of fluency in a particular language is also not a determinant as to whether you can comment on word origins within that language. Otherwise very few professional linguists would get much done as they would spend all their time learning to be fluent in the languages they are studying before they could apply linguistic analysis.....
Compare Pendgast and Bruno's posts and tell me which ones displays a better standard of English....
As for where "tiburon" came from.... many words have come from obscure languages and made their way into others. If "tiburon" can't go from Arawak to Spanish and Portuguese, what about lasso, siesta and a multitude of other words from Spanish to English (some of which probably came originally from indigenous Mexican languages to boot).
While "tiburon" may well have been Arawak for a particular species of shark, and may originally only been used in Spanish/Portuguese for that same variety, over the years it could have become a more general word for shark.
vamoose, cowboy slang, meaning get out of here... is actually a really bad pronunciation of vamanos. Spanish for "we go".
Alot of that western slang is a good example of someone coming from outside a language, who is more educated than the person using the language, trying to comment on it's use.
'Vamoose' isn't a word, yet all the locals understand it.
The person using it is speaking 'english' yet a chap from england isn't going to have any idea what he's talking about.
In retrospect, same guy going to england hasn't a clue that the chap from england is referring to a flashlight when he says 'torch'. the cowboy is thinking flame on a stick.
Likewise, as I've been saying ALL along, someone who is educated (and likely MORE educated on the use of the language than the native speaker) knows about words like 'to', 'uchigatana', 'tachi' and 'katana', knows their meanings and how they are all different.
Mr. Farmer is going to look at all those swords and generally have the same opinion of them, they all look the same to him.
Katana, being by far the most common of all those blades, hes just going to say katana. It doesn't matter what the origin of the word is, if the person speaking the language has never, ever heard the word before, or heard it used in a sentence, he/she is not going to use the word, even though it exists in the language.
Also do to the isolationism of japan during most of the samurai era, it's highly unlikely the general commoner of japan ever saw a sword that was NOT being carried by a samurai, so would never have had a need to refer to anything BUT a katana.
I just had a vision in my head of guy getting cut down in the street for wearing daisho, and not being a samurai, and the officals walking up to him and looking down and going "my bad, it was just an uchigatana and a tanto!"
Likewise, the katana it's self was not limited to the samurai. It was the sword in japan. the daisho was typically the symbol of the warrior cast/samurai and what was forbidden to be used by others.
Although it was highly unlikely other warriors used katanas, because of their price.
But as Gamer-printer pointed out stations above samurai could wear them, and were wealthy enough to afford them.
I'm curious however, maybe Gamer can answer this one, where there samurai who never used katanas, due to not being able to afford/acquire one? I know early samurai didnt use them and that yari, and yumi were weapons, but after the period when things changed and sword combat was more common was in like a jedi and his lightsaber (ie every samurai had one) or did some samurai go without?
stuff
Calling soda a "coke" is a branding issue, much like people refering to facial tissues as kleenex. Not even remotely the same thing.
I travel enough, thanks.Your example of calling an M-16 a gun is a bit off too.
It'd be more akin to calling all firearms a SPAS-12. Hey cool SPAS-12! Uhh its not even a rifle dude, let alone a high powered shotgun. It's a automatic pistol.
A katana is a specific name for a specific weapon. Like the SPAS-12 is a specific name for a specific weapon. No japanese peseant guy, I don't care how uneducated he is, is going to see a scimitar, rapier or or a flamberege, etc. and refer to it as a katana.
Sometimes linguistic studies have to pass the common sense smell test.
stuffCalling soda a "coke" is a branding issue, much like people refering to facial tissues as kleenex. Not even remotely the same thing.
I travel enough, thanks.
Your example of calling an M-16 a gun is a bit off too.
It'd be more akin to calling all firearms a SPAS-12. Hey cool SPAS-12! Uhh its not even a rifle dude, let alone a high powered shotgun. It's a automatic pistol.A katana is a specific name for a specific weapon. Like the SPAS-12 is a specific name for a specific weapon. No japanese peseant guy, I don't care how uneducated he is, is going to see a scimitar, rapier or or a flamberege, etc. and refer to it as a katana.
Sometimes linguistic studies have to pass the common sense smell test.
Kryz, you obviously are out of your element. Nuff said.