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Back to kappa... more interesting actually since A) I don't know where I have seen this word before in reference to 'japanese goblins' and my memory of them doesn't seem to be far off.
It is very possible to be exposed to kappa via Japanese media. The creature is still popular in Japan.
In Mario games, the koopa are based off of kappas - turtle humanoids. Anyone who has played Mario has therefore been somewhat exposed to a phonetically similar word used for a similar sort of creature.
There's kappa in a few Japanese movies, including, notably, the first Kibakichi and the newer (slightly goofy) Death Kappa.
Also, InuYasha, Harvest Moon, Animal Crossing all have Kappa.
In TMNT, the boys are confused for Kappa when they time travel back to Japan. They are, I believe, mentioned in one of the Harry Potter books.
Back to kappa... more interesting actually since A) I don't know where I have seen this word before in reference to 'japanese goblins' and my memory of them doesn't seem to be far off.
It is very possible to be exposed to kappa via Japanese media. The creature is still popular in Japan.
In Mario games, the koopa are based off of kappas - turtle humanoids. Anyone who has played Mario has therefore been somewhat exposed to a phonetically similar word used for a similar sort of creature.
There's kappa in a few Japanese movies, including, notably, the first Kibakichi and the newer (slightly goofy) Death Kappa.
Also, InuYasha, Harvest Moon, Animal Crossing all have Kappa.
In TMNT, the boys are confused for Kappa when they time travel back to Japan. They are, I believe, mentioned in one of the Harry Potter books.
Hmm like Ive said, I don't really watch anime, so using it as a reference is lost on me.
The only Japanese movie ( i think) I have ever watched was yojimbo, and I only watched the whole thing because a) it was kind of funny and b) matched man with no name western movie plot to a T. so it ws interesting to see they just copy and pasted the script essentially.
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The only Japanese movie ( i think) I have ever watched was yojimbo, and I only watched the whole thing because a) it was kind of funny and b) matched man with no name western movie plot to a T. so it ws interesting to see they just copy and pasted the script essentially.
So long as you mean the Italians copy and pasted the script from the Japanese I agree with that. :)
Yojimbo was 1961. A Fist Full of Dollars was 1964 and was a remake of Yojimbo (as was Last Man Standing 1996)
All of them were influenced by the American novels of Dashiell Hammett.
The only Japanese movie ( i think) I have ever watched was yojimbo, and I only watched the whole thing because a) it was kind of funny and b) matched man with no name western movie plot to a T. so it ws interesting to see they just copy and pasted the script essentially.
So long as you mean the Italians copy and pasted the script from the Japanese I agree with that. :)
Yojimbo was 1961. A Fist Full of Dollars was 1964 and was a remake of Yojimbo (as was Last Man Standing 1996)
All of them were influenced by the American novels of Dashiell Hammett.
yes thats what i mean the westerns were copy/pasted FROM yojimbo
Ok, I think I've seen some of that, its basically really simple characters?
The Kanji for sword, or 'Ken' is really simple, only three strokes I think, Is it like that?
Yes, that would be kata-kana.
Yes, that would be kata-kana.Ok, I think I've seen some of that, its basically really simple characters?
The Kanji for sword, or 'Ken' is really simple, only three strokes I think, Is it like that?
huh interesting, so does that mean the character for ken, is basic and no longer used a 'regular' japanese, so that then 'childrens' words is more or less more simple japanese that was in use years and years ago, and 'normal' japanese has just become more complex?
And if so, is the writing separate from the spoken living language (i.e does some one still say the word ken, outside of the context of childrens books?)
Kata-kana is a currently used form of writing used along side of Kanji, While due to its greater ease in learning that Japanese children learn this first, it is by no means for children only. Some things are better described and understood in kata-kana than kanji.
So 'ken' or any other word is sometimes better represented in kata-kana.
I don't mean to imply that kata-kana is exclusively a 'children's form of writing'.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I understood katakana to be the script used specifically for foreign words, or onomatopoeia. What you're describing sounds more like hiragana to me. Both are kana scripts (meaning they're symbols that represent sounds or syllables, rather than whole words or ideas like kanji) but stylistically, hiragana is the one used for native Japanese.
So, for example, a loan word like 'konpyuuta' (computer) would be written in katakana. A native Japanese word, like 'ringo' (apple), would be written in hiragana.
At least that's how we learned it when I took Japanese in High School.
It's different than just simplified symbols too. 'Ken' for instance, might be a single simple character in kanji, but in hiragana, it's two symbols, 'ke' and 'n'.
Like gamer-printer says, the two kana scripts aren't just for kids. Some Japanese words don't have kanji, so they get spelled out in hiragana/katakana. Other times if it's an obscure word, they'll add hiragana in above the kanji as a pronunciation guide (called furigana).
I understood katakana to be the script used specifically for foreign words, or onomatopoeia. What you're describing sounds more like hiragana to me. Both are kana scripts (meaning they're symbols that represent sounds or syllables, rather than whole words or ideas like kanji) but stylistically, hiragana is the one used for native Japanese.
So, for example, a loan word like 'konpyuuta' (computer) would be written in katakana. A native Japanese word, like 'ringo' (apple), would be written in hiragana.
At least that's how we learned it when I took Japanese in High School.
It's different than just simplified symbols too. 'Ken' for instance, might be a single simple character in kanji, but in hiragana, it's two symbols, 'ke' and 'n'.
Like gamer-printer says, the two kana scripts aren't just for kids. Some Japanese words don't have kanji, so they get spelled out in hiragana/katakana. Other times if it's an obscure word, they'll add hiragana in above the kanji as a pronunciation guide (called furigana).
there is a reason i never learned japanese.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I found a good example, here:
This is a sign for a Snack Bar named 'Chizuru'
The top string of characters reads as sunakku, meaning snack bar. It's written in katakana because it's a loan word, coming from the english 'snack'. You can see these symbols are very simple, almost angular and boxy.
The larger characters on the bottom are the name of the place, 'Chizuru'. The character on the left is very simple, but still a kanji. It reads as chi and means 'thousand'. The more complex character on the right is tsuru or 'crane'. Together they read as Chizuru.
In the middle, you can see small characters written just above the kanji, those are hiragana. They give a pronunciation guide for the kanji, left to right reading 'chi-zu-ru'. In contrast to the katakana just above them, you can see they're more curvy, squiggly, and just a little bit more complex.
Benchak is right, I got that backwards, it should be hiragana, not kata gana. Writing in Japanese is one thing (or three things really), but the language itself is not that bad. There's much fewer words in Japanese as a totality compared to English.
The next problem is conversation. When two Japanese are speaking in conversation, the subject of the discussion is mentioned once at the start, then no longer referred to in the conversation, until a new subject comes up then its introduced and no longer referred after that. Even to the point that if a third Japanese person walks in the middle of the discussion, since that person didn't hear the subject, either they don't know what the other two are discussing, or they have to figure it out based on context.
Foreigners trying to learn conversational Japanese run into this problem all the time.
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there is a reason i never learned japanese.
My boys are currently studying Japanese via Live-Mocha. The language itself does not appear that bad, though it is very different in structure from western languages.
But their writing system! You know its bad when you have native Japanese who admit they can't read certain forms of their own language*. You have the Kanji script, the Kana script (further broken down into subscripts), and Romaji (which also has variations). Moreover, some words are only written in one script and some words seem to be able to be written in more than one and some are only ever written with romaji.
All I can say is that I am so very thankful for the genius who decided to move away from 1 symbol = 1 word in order to create a phonetic alphabet which allows me to read not only english but spanish, french, etc all using the same alphabet.
*I forget the name of the book but it was written by a Japanese scholar living in France on writing Japanese script. He tells a story at the beginning of the book of recieving letters from His mother and he couldn't read them because he had never learned the subscript in question. Nevertheless he kept them because of the caligraphy and they were from his mother. Letters from his own mother and he couldn't read them (and this is an award winning scholar native to Japan!) It just made me shake my head. He then went on to say that having such a complicated writing system was something of a matter of cultural pride among the Japanese.
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Benchak is right, I got that backwards, it should be hiragana, not kata gana. Writing in Japanese is one thing (or three things really), but the language itself is not that bad. There's much fewer words in Japanese as a totality compared to English.
That's not too surprising considering that English is the largest language in the world. There's much fewer words in every language than there is in English.
Though watching Japanese movies and anime (which I've been doing a little more frequently over the last 6 months for some reason) I'm noticing more and more english words creeping into the language all the time (and some french and recently even a german word) so it seems to me here that the Japanese are borrowing a page from our book and pirating other languages to grow their own.
I've got a question regarding Samurai misconceptions-
Is it true that kenjutsu was only taught right-handed, or were there left-handed Samurai as well? I ask because I've heard that one a lot. In the West it didn't seem to be a big deal- in fact, some Fectbuch have lines like, 'If you're left-handed, then do it this way.'
** spoiler omitted **
EDIT: multiple format errors :P It's 4:30 am here...
Well the further you go back in time, right-handedness was the preferred sword wielding style in Europe. This is confirmed in that most castle/keeps have clockwise spiraling staircases in corner round towers. This is a defensive measure since right-handed defenders from above have the advantage over right handed attackers going up the stairs.
In a clockwise direction going up a spiral staircase. The center stone 'pole' of the staircase is to the right side, forcing the attacker to move closer to the outer wall to effectively strike a defender up the stairs - making himself more open to attack from above. Whereas the defender can shield himself partially with the center, and have a full swing area to his right.
There was a Scottish clan, the Kerrs, known to teach using left-hand for sword wielding just to combat this disadvantage. The English lords at the time considered them, "those damned left-handed Kerrs", for their choice in left-handed fighting techniques.
Yes, its true right handed sword wielding is the preferred stance for kenjutsu (now known as kendo). Even in 2 handed style, the right hand is closer to the hilt, whereas the left is below the right.
GP
Well english is partial latin in origin and collectively latin based languages cover most of the world.Sorry, but that's simply wrong. The origin of English lies in the Germanic branch of the Indo-European languages, seeing as it is a descendant of various Old High Germanic languages (Old Anglish, Old Saxon), mixed with a wee bit of Celtic and a good splash of Old Norse, THEN overlayed with a large vocabulary of Romance words (mostly French from the Normans + a truckload of Latin and other words). Later, Dutch, various American, African and Asian languages have also had an impact on vocabulary, but the root of the language is Germanic.
If you look at the most used words in English, of the 100 most used, 97% are Germanic, only 3% French or Latin. Of the 1.000 most used, 57% are still Germanic, while 36% are French or Latin and the remaining 7% are "other" (of which half are Hellenistic). It is not until you look at the 1001-2000th most used words that French and Latin take over a first place.
My Language History teacher always used to say (and I'm sure she took it from someone else) that "you cannot speak about anything in English without using French, but you cannot speak at all in English without using Germanic".
I dunno why, but I just recalled a scene from "Better off Dead" with John Cusak, We are having a French dinner in honor of our foreign guest, we will be having "Fraunch" bread, "Fraunch" fries and "Fraunch Dressing and to drink...."Peru".
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Trouble with any historical account is the word history, means literally HIS STORY.
So if I babble on about Paul Revere or Musashi and someone says "hey who do you know that" I'll say "his story".
What credibility does one man's story have?
Only when it is supported by lots and lots of other accounts/storys.
Sorry to interject. I don't have anything to add about this, but I do know that you are wrong here. The word "history" comes from the Greek word "historia", meaning "inquiry, knowledge acquired by investigation". I would say that this meaning gives it a much more significant meaning.
Few English words derive their meaning from other english words. A similar misconception comes about the word woman, which many people argue is a lesser form of the word man, but actually just comes from Old English to mean female human.
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Well english is partial latin in origin and collectively latin based languages cover most of the world.Sorry, but that's simply wrong. The origin of English lies in the Germanic branch of the Indo-European languages, seeing as it is a descendant of various Old High Germanic languages (Old Anglish, Old Saxon), mixed with a wee bit of Celtic and a good splash of Old Norse, THEN overlayed with a large vocabulary of Romance words (mostly French from the Normans + a truckload of Latin and other words). Later, Dutch, various American, African and Asian languages have also had an impact on vocabulary, but the root of the language is Germanic.
If you look at the most used words in English, of the 100 most used, 97% are Germanic, only 3% French or Latin. Of the 1.000 most used, 57% are still Germanic, while 36% are French or Latin and the remaining 7% are "other" (of which half are Hellenistic). It is not until you look at the 1001-2000th most used words that French and Latin take over a first place.
My Language History teacher always used to say (and I'm sure she took it from someone else) that "you cannot speak about anything in English without using French, but you cannot speak at all in English without using Germanic".
It is a mix of germanic and latin, with other barrowed words. I said partially latin, not all or even primarily. Just pointing out that latin is in the most common languages.
Well the further you go back in time, right-handedness was the preferred sword wielding style in Europe. This is confirmed in that most castle/keeps have clockwise spiraling staircases in corner round towers. This is a defensive measure since right-handed defenders from above have the advantage over right handed attackers going up the stairs.
In a clockwise direction going up a spiral staircase. The center stone 'pole' of the staircase is to the right side, forcing the attacker to move closer to the outer wall to effectively strike a defender up the stairs - making himself more open to attack from above. Whereas the defender can shield himself partially with the center, and have a full swing area to his right.
There was a Scottish clan, the Kerrs, known to teach using left-hand for sword wielding just to combat this disadvantage. The English lords at the time considered them, "those damned left-handed Kerrs", for their choice in left-handed fighting techniques.
Yes, its true right handed sword wielding is the preferred stance for kenjutsu (now known as kendo). Even in 2 handed style, the right hand is closer to the hilt, whereas the left is below the right.
GP
Just to clarify, what I was referring to is that a number of people have told me that kenjutsu is 'right-hand only', like using a katana left-handed was taboo or something. It seems odd to me that it would be so, since when wielded in two hands, the difference becomes rather minor. (speaking as a left-handed longsword practitioner) Could you clear that up for me? It wasn't quite clear from your response.
I was aware of the whole staircase issue. Also, as far as right-handed being the preferred style as you go farther back is concerned, I believe that has a lot to do with tactics. I.e.- nobody in the shield wall likes the guy who's got his shield on the wrong arm. As large shields went out of style, so to did the handedness bias.
Also ,as an extra aside, the reason all our coats tend to button with the left side over the right comes from medieval armor- specifically brigandine or 'coat-of-plates' armor. The thought goes like this- if two right-handed knights charge each other with lances, the blow is likely to land on the left side. If the coat buttoned right-over-left, then the lance point could catch the seam and possibly bypass the armor entirely. Apparently it was enduring enough of a custom that we still follow it today. :)
Yes, left handedness in Japan is generally taboo, thus sword wielding in kendo is right-handed biased as well. And wielding the katana two handed, while it doesn't seem to matter, the controlling hand is closer to the hilt, the lower second hand, works like the pinkie offering back control, but not primary control. So though it seemingly shouldn't matter in 2 handed style, it actually does. Both hands do not operate equally in 2 handed style, the hand closer to the hilt does most of the sword control.
I do think the right-handed bias in Europe was certainly still in existence until very recently. Its great that you're a left-handed sword practitioner, but that wouldn't have been allowed a century ago, so I think it remained long after the shield fell out of favor.
I began life left handed, I was taught to write with my right hand in 1st grade, so the bias is still around.
Yes, left handedness in Japan is generally taboo, thus sword wielding in kendo is right-handed biased as well. And wielding the katana two handed, while it doesn't seem to matter, the controlling hand is closer to the hilt, the lower second hand, works like the pinkie offering back control, but not primary control. So though it seemingly shouldn't matter in 2 handed style, it actually does. Both hands do not operate equally in 2 handed style, the hand closer to the hilt does most of the sword control.
I do think the right-handed bias in Europe was certainly still in existence until very recently. Its great that you're a left-handed sword practitioner, but that wouldn't have been allowed a century ago, so I think it remained long after the shield fell out of favor.
I began life left handed, I was taught to write with my right hand in 1st grade, so the bias is still around.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I do understand that it still matters for 2-handed use, but it doesn't effect technique as significantly. For example, if the standard method is to counter cut x with cut y, then I just use the off-side version of cut y and it works fine. It gets more awkward with one-handed weapons.
I should have said the bias 'lessened'. I didn't mean to imply I think it disappeared entirely. But as for not being allowed- it was certainly allowed 400 years ago in Germany. As I mentioned in my 1st post on the subject, fighting manuals of the day sometimes give advice for left-handed swordsmen. I doubt they would do that if it was a major taboo.
I think you are correct on this. The fact that the Latin for left is "sinistra" (today associated with "evil", "mysterious" or "unlucky" clearly suggests a bias against left-handedness in Europe in the past.Yes, left handedness in Japan is generally taboo, thus sword wielding in kendo is right-handed biased as well. And wielding the katana two handed, while it doesn't seem to matter, the controlling hand is closer to the hilt, the lower second hand, works like the pinkie offering back control, but not primary control. So though it seemingly shouldn't matter in 2 handed style, it actually does. Both hands do not operate equally in 2 handed style, the hand closer to the hilt does most of the sword control.
I do think the right-handed bias in Europe was certainly still in existence until very recently. Its great that you're a left-handed sword practitioner, but that wouldn't have been allowed a century ago, so I think it remained long after the shield fell out of favor.
I began life left handed, I was taught to write with my right hand in 1st grade, so the bias is still around.
Yeah, like I said- I misspoke and should have said the bias 'lessened' at least as far the fighting arts were concerned.
I was aware of the connection between 'sinistra' and 'sinister' a long time ago. In fact, there is even a bit more of a subtle dig in the word 'ambidextrous' as well. So, yeah, the bias was definitely there- just not severe enough to prevent the existence of left-handed swordsmen. We have strong evidence they existed.
Anyways, enough of that- I feel my question has been answered to my satisfaction. Now on to another question- can someone tell me more about the 'house codes' mentioned earlier? I'm especially keen for examples of how much one code might have differed from another.
From Samurai Archives website...
This is a comparative breakdown of Daimyo House Codes from 6 different Samurai houses - exactly what you asked.
GP
That is a really cool site. I think that one has to remember that D&D is not about historical accuracy, but about having fun with the mythology to the extent that the mythology can have cool stories and adventures built around it. So, in D&D ninja *must* be able to disappear in a cloud of smoke, and samurai should either be bound by a code of honor, or become somehow despicable. I actually like the idea of samurai gunfighters though. That is actually cooler than the 'Last Samurai' myth of them not adapting to guns.
You're missing the point. This thread only serves all the other threads on Samurai and Ninja where people are making points then claiming its authentic by the historical records, where in many cases they aren't correct nor historic at all. Rather they are misconceptions of historical fact. This thread was created to point to the historical record to confirm which facts are true and which are not.
Not everything can be confirmed, nor denied, however you can get some direction to the truth, and this thread touches on that.
This thread was not intended to offer a direction for Pathfinder play and class design, its only to correct historic claims.
I on the other hand am a 3pp creating a Japanese-inspired horror setting for Pathfinder, and while many of my classes and cultural concepts are far more authentic to historic fact and not anime based Asian ideas, it fits better with Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting.
My setting is definitely fantasy crossed with Asian horror and not your typical D&D oriental setting. I heavily rely on Japanese folklore, ghost stories, legends, culture and to some degree history. My setting is historically consistent with Japan from 1200 to 1500. So it is not intended to be a general oriental setting as Tian Xia might be.
Because it is a chain of offshore islands it can easily fit in Golarian or any other campaign world.
Today, we released In the Company of Kappa - a complete 1st - 20th level racial class and archetype for the diminuitive turtle shelled goblin of Japanese folklore. This is a short race that actually excells in physical combat.
Kanji - Kana - Konfusion - snip 'good stuff' snip -
My Japanese expertise lies in history and folklore, not writing, so my points on Kanji and the kana scripts aren't from a point of expertise, just what I am familiar. I am half-Japanese and exposed to all that from family, but my interests lie only with legend, history, ghost stories, that sort of thing. I was not suggesting hiragana was children's script, rather I was just trying to convey the idea that is was easier to learn than Kanji.
GP
My problem, is because I do not read Kanji/Kana, but in Romaji only. So when I use the word "Kaidan" in speaking to a Japanese person, they think "staircase?", in hearing it they aren't seeing the Kanji that normally describe it. Japanese is full of homophones words (of different Kanji) that sound alike.
I mean to use Kaidan, as it applies to "strange discussions" or "ghost stories" (I always have to throw in Koizumi Yagumo's name for a Japanese person to understand what I am talking about.) My use of the word is more archaic to current Japanese language.
GP
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Samurai Misconceptions:
Shigh..The link to samurai archives makes some VERY dubious statements:
"In fact, the Japanese were using guns more effectively than their European counterparts by the sixteenth century, as well as producing more accurate, durable varieties"
Unless presented with prove, I call fanboyism.
"Instead, the ashigaru were simply too disposable to teach them anything more complicated"
I dont know if he means the guns are very easy to use crap.
Samurai Misconceptions:
Shigh..The link to samurai archives makes some VERY dubious statements:
"In fact, the Japanese were using guns more effectively than their European counterparts by the sixteenth century, as well as producing more accurate, durable varieties"
Unless presented with prove, I call fanboyism.
"Instead, the ashigaru were simply too disposable to teach them anything more complicated"
I dont know if he means the guns are very easy to use crap.
I don't have proof to measure that with, but Samurai-Archives is part of the History Channel network of sites and had lots of entries into Wikipedia at one time, until S-A complained that that information was taken without permission and promptly removed from Wikipedia - so many qualified historians consider S-A not a fanboi site.
Nobunaga who was the implementer of the arquebus in Japanese warfare, as introduced by the Portugeuse, made a full effort to field many weapons in large units of both samurai and ashigaru, in addition to cavalry and regular forces. He didn't just experiment, he did wholesale integration right away, almost completely replacing the bow. His opponents did not, and in a very short decade he conquered all of Japan - nearly ending a century of war (his subordinates would fight on for another decade after his death.)
The successes of Toyotomi and Tokugawa after him, were because of the work he did in winning Japan and picking up where he left off.
Whether that is better than his European counterparts, I can't really say, but as soon as he had the technology Nobunaga fully implemented it, whether his samurai approved or not.
Still, S-A has an impeccable reputation in historian circles.
The point about guns and ease of use... it takes weeks to train on the effective use of guns, whereas it takes months or years to be well trained at bow, sword or spear.
Last point, not at you, but I've heard the statement, the samurai would be abhorrent at the 'dishonorable' gun, but that's missing the point, a samurai serves his lord. If his lord says, "Here's a gun, use it." His only other choice is to disembowel himself, so I guess he uses the gun without question, that's what samurai do.
GP