There I said it, so far the Samurai is terrible, if anything it should be a cavalier archtype.
Miss the memo on that one?
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Except orders don't work that way. They offer class skills, modify the challenge mechanic and offer couple of unique abilities on set class levels. The problem is the system they've set in place. If cavalier orders were like alternate classes, that they'd replace the vanilla class abilities and give new ones on top, making samurai an order might work.
I agree that the samurai should probably have been an order. And they instead introduced an unmounted variant class for those kensai enthusiasts among us that would be entirely distanced from the choice order itself(Kensai of the Order of the Cockatrice, etc), we could avoid a lot of conflicts in these fora. People seem to have widely different expections on what constitutes a proper samurai, heh.
Ok time for Constructive Criticism. It is without a doubt better then the 3.5 version of the Samurai, I think it could be made better if the challenge was dropped. Replace it with some kind of personal buff whenever the samurai's honour (or his lords honour) is challenged in a certain way.
I am glad it is a caviler archetype. The challenge was made for this type of thing. I think it is a great feat and though of samurai when I first saw the caviler.
Over all it does not change all that many things, and needs more orders, but I like it.
I want to clarify, it's an actual archetype or is it an alternative to the Cavalier, like the Ninja is an alternative to the Rogue?
Alternate to the Cavalier as Ninja is an alternate to the Rogue, as Anti-Paladin is an alternate to the Paladin.
The major reason I've not done much posting about the samurai is because I feel it is just about where it needs to be. I have a few personal points I don't like about it currently, but over all I feel it is a solid offering.
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I tend to also think the Samurai (and the Ninja, to be honest) is pretty darn good and more or less right where the class should be. Obviously feedback and playtest results will no doubt result in slightly tweaked and even better final versions.
I don't feel the same way about the gunslinger, but that's a different thread entirely! :)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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On reviewing the Samurai, I think it is a good archtype for the Cavalier. I don't think it needs to be an 'alternate class' It does what an Archtype should, and, if you move the samurai orders to a generic Cavalier order section and remove the reprinted class abilties it shares with its base class, it is 'only' 962 words. The Sandman, by comparison, is 819, Monk of the four winds is 885 words, zen archer's 814. The Skirmisher, counting all their tricks is 1186 words.
Am I missing something?
Isn't an Alternate Class just an archetype with its own table and illustration?
I think perhaps people are overreacting.
Yeah, paizo kinda dropped the ball a bit on both how they showed these and what they called em. Calling them something other then an archetype and then showing a whole class write up makes it looks like something they are not.
They should have been clear "These are archetypes"{ well two are and one could be an alt class}.
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I agree that the alternate class vs archtype issue is pretty confusing, even though both are very cool and interesting concepts.
For the record, these three playtest 'classes' are NOT archetypes - they are alternate classes. Take a look at the actual text for each of them for proof.
Under the Role section for the Gunslinger, for instance, it says
"The gunslinger is an alternate class for the fighter core class."
As for the differences, here are the main differences as I understand them:
Archetypes are much closer to the base class in theory, with only a few changes in specific elements. They are designed to still be a variation of the same class, just with a different slant, so to speak. Characters may take more than one archetype if they meet the requirements.
An Alternate class, on the other hand alters many more espects of the class it is based on, to the point that it almost becomes an entirely new class, needing a full write up etc. although it can't really be considered a new character class in its own right. The details and tone of the class are shifted in a completely new or even opposite direction and captures an entirely different fantasy theme, without needlessly designing an entire new class. While still a redesign of sorts, an alternate class can be used just as any of the other base class.
FYI, these definitions are paraprased from the actual text.
I know what it says, but the Ninja and samurai change 6 ablites, just six. That is less then many AGP archetypes. The ninja just muddies the water by renaming rogue talents and reprints loads of em and introducing better rogue talents rouges can't take, Sloopy.
What is an Alt class? And what is an Arch type? Paizo muddied that water well with two of these classes which do not even modify the parent class as much as some AGP archetypes. As far as I can tell two of these get the name "alt class" based off the name they use, not the content of the swapped ablites
Only one of the "classes" even approaches being more then an archetype, the gunslinger.
Not a hard rule, but I think archetypes have some (less than half) of base class's features replaced with alternate abilities. While alternate classes have most of its class features replaced, working as sort of a template for the alternate class.
Just guessing here, but I believe Paizo chose to make Samurai an alternate class to preclude the requirement of owning the Advanced Players Guide, so much of the features have been moved from the APG to this.
I agree that Samurai should be a Cavalier archetype, that is why my version of this for Kaidan is Cavalier (hatamoto). Though the Ultimate Combat Samurai is very close. In my archetype, the Charge is replaced by Iaijutsu which consist of the Vital Strike feat chain, otherwise much the same to the Ultimate Combat Samurai, and more similar to Cavalier itself.
I too am making an alternate class for Samurai called Yojimbo, that is an alternate class for Ranger, with ancestral focus abilities, Ki pool and powers, combat style feat, mount's bond. Ancestral foci are abilities gained through bonding with an ancestor gaining bonus feats, bonus powers.
For a brief update of all classes of Kaidan and a brief background on the setting, I have a thread in the Conversions Forum (though it should have gone into the Suggestions Forum): Kaidan Classes Update