If a character has — for the sake of argument — two iterative attacks, two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting, rapid shot, and quick draw, how many dagger attacks is that?
Does rapid shot augment both hands for an additional attack, granting 6 total attacks? Or does Rapid shot count only once, granting 5 total attacks?
Or do I have the whole thing wrong?
Rapidshot only works once Lincoln, same with haste (one of the things I hate about the Rules as Written to be honest >.>)
Can you get me a reference on that Kyrt?
If it's not in writing, I'm prepared to ignore it. I'm the GM. Rule of Cool in favor of PCs.
Rapid shot only gives oneextra attack:
When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
On a technicality I could see someone saying that if you fight with two ranged weapons that you can't even rapid shot since it says a ranged weapon.
Though I'm very firmly of the belief that nothing prevents you from using rapid shot with haste.
Or darts or shuriken, for the sake of argument.
Rapid Shot (Pag132 Core):
"Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged
weapon, you can fire one additional time this round."
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So, what's the verdict?
4?
So, what's the verdict?Based on the OP's scenario, 5.
2...for BAB (i.e. iterative attacks)
1...for TWF
1...for Imp TWF
1...for rapid shot
Thank you Creepily-Hooded citizen.
5 'eh? That's not too shabby, say for a 6th level fighter.
Pick up a semi-decent str mod and away we go..
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5 'eh? That's not too shabby, say for a 6th level fighter.
Pick up a semi-decent str mod and away we go..
Keep in mind it's a pretty taxing attack penalty. -2 to all attacks from rapid shot. Another -2 to attacks for using TWF, plus the extra attacks are at -5. It might look "good" for flavor, it's not very damage effective unless you tag some other feats on top, like Weapon specialization and Deadly Aim(although that adds more attack penalties). Keep in mind also, that Shuriken/daggers only have a 10ft range increment so you will either have range penalties in most situations or be close enough that provoking attacks of opportunity becomes an issue.
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Keep in mind it's a pretty taxing attack penalty. -2 to all attacks from rapid shot. Another -2 to attacks for using TWF, plus the extra attacks are at -5. It might look "good" for flavor, it's not very damage effective unless you tag some other feats on top, like Weapon specialization and Deadly Aim(although that adds more attack penalties). Keep in mind also, that Shuriken/daggers only have a 10ft range increment so you will either have range penalties in most situations or be close enough that provoking attacks of opportunity becomes an issue.5 'eh? That's not too shabby, say for a 6th level fighter.
Pick up a semi-decent str mod and away we go..
works great for an Alchemist though. -2 is not that bad when making ranged touch attacks. Just more boom per round.. :)
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Since the PC is throwing weapons, the real question is this: How fast can the character draw the <daggers/dart/shuriken>?
If someone is attacking with only the primary hand, they could state that they are using the off hand to hold the extras and thus making it simply a snap of a wrist to throw each one. I would allow that as long as they don't have a shield (though a buckler would be OK, to me.)
Drawing a sheathed weapon with Quickdraw may be a free action, but unless they're sheathed on your wrist or perhaps on a some sort of special designed bandolier, as a GM I'd personally have a hard time allowing anything more than maybe 3 or 4 attacks in a round - 2 attacks each hand at most - and that would be for a high level character, rapid shot or no.
Simply because you have to draw, throw, return to draw the next, etc. Drawing a sheathed weapon slows you down enough that I don't think you could get more attacks than that into a 6 second round.
From the quick draw feat:
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
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It's a question of balance. Are you more afraid of the dagger throwing 6th level fighter with 5 daggers per round or the 6th level ranger archer? The ranger can hurt you from a much further distance and his magic bow bestows enchantments upon the arrows. Assuming similar feat buys, the arrow damage is the same in average damage as the fighter (due to specialization), but the daggers all have to be enchanted individually. That's a hefty resource cost. Also, the ranger gets an extra shot using Manyshot that is not available to the fighter. Quick Draw is only limited to the number of iterative attacks you have per round, plus perhaps, two extra draws after throwing all the daggers you could. This is a good idea for the daggerguy so he'll have melee weapons ready when the enemy closes. After that, who are you more afraid of, the fighter with two daggers (assuming TWF) who got to throw for one, maybe two rounds, or the archer who had to switch to his greatsword (with or without power attack) after firing for perhaps four rounds?
It's a question of balance. Are you more afraid of the dagger throwing 6th level fighter with 5 daggers per round or the 6th level ranger archer? The ranger can hurt you from a much further distance and his magic bow bestows enchantments upon the arrows. Assuming similar feat buys, the arrow damage is the same in average damage as the fighter (due to specialization), but the daggers all have to be enchanted individually. That's a hefty resource cost. Also, the ranger gets an extra shot using Manyshot that is not available to the fighter. Quick Draw is only limited to the number of iterative attacks you have per round, plus perhaps, two extra draws after throwing all the daggers you could. This is a good idea for the daggerguy so he'll have melee weapons ready when the enemy closes. After that, who are you more afraid of, the fighter with two daggers (assuming TWF) who got to throw for one, maybe two rounds, or the archer who had to switch to his greatsword (with or without power attack) after firing for perhaps four rounds?
Hmm..
Am I drunk and is the fighter wearing a dress?
Since the PC is throwing weapons, the real question is this: How fast can the character draw the <daggers/dart/shuriken>?
If someone is attacking with only the primary hand, they could state that they are using the off hand to hold the extras and thus making it simply a snap of a wrist to throw each one. I would allow that as long as they don't have a shield (though a buckler would be OK, to me.)
Drawing a sheathed weapon with Quickdraw may be a free action, but unless they're sheathed on your wrist or perhaps on a some sort of special designed bandolier, as a GM I'd personally have a hard time allowing anything more than maybe 3 or 4 attacks in a round - 2 attacks each hand at most - and that would be for a high level character, rapid shot or no.
Simply because you have to draw, throw, return to draw the next, etc. Drawing a sheathed weapon slows you down enough that I don't think you could get more attacks than that into a 6 second round.
The party's monk can, by RAW, grapple an adult dragon. By this level (10th), we are well into Justice League antics. Why would I want to play realism against balance?
I see where you're coming from, but taking the other PCs into account, even seven or eight knives a round would fit right in. Certainly no worse than a crossbowman with all the reload feats. :/
Many shot does not factor in because, unlike rapid shot which requires a ranged attack, many shot actually requires a full-attack action with a bow.
Throwing two daggers at one time is, in game terms, applicable to two weapon fighting.
On a note of absurdity, by RAW, you could make small bows that you throw as improvised weapons, take the Throw Anything feat, and then you can use Manyshot;-) By the wording of the description, somehow a couple of arrow appear when you throw the bow, but that doesn't matter. *
It is of course easier (though not as beautifully silly) to allow manyshot for thrown weapons.
*Off-topic: Abusing the wording of manyshot, bows might actually become the choice weapon for a monk of the empty hand, as they get to double their normal unarmed strike damage on the first attack in a full attack for 1 ki. **
** No reason to crunch numbers at this not entirely serious build, I realize that many here can make many monk builds, that are better than one with 17 in dex.
I always houseruled that Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting are granting additional attack of the same type and thus do not stack with each other.
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Are you referring to the iterative attack? Honestly, I haven't researched the alchemist much, but it does not appear that they get to throw multiple bombs with a full round action since it states mixing/throwing a bomb is a standard action.
The Fast Bombs discovery allows attacking with multiple attacks as if you were using a thrown weapon. Sean specifically calls out that it works with both TWF and Rapid shot in the FAQ. Doesn't really talk about whether TWF and Rapid Shot would/ should work together though.
TWF+Rapid Shot means 4 bombs per round at 8th level. Add haste for 5...
At 4d6+4 each that's a good bit of damage in a round.
I always houseruled that Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting are granting additional attack of the same type and thus do not stack with each other.
So shooting the extra arrow from a bow uses your off hand? Or attacking with your off hand means swinging really fast with my primary?
Can I just take rapid shot instead of two weapon fighting since the penalties are less?
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In DPR (damage per round) calculations, you see that by far attack bonuses make the most difference in average damage dealt. That's why the penalties for twf or rapid shot are so painful. It's even worse when you stack them for the full -4 penalty.
You can definitely go rapid shot and TWF with daggers, as long as you're willing to accept that you'll hit a lot less often and also do significantly less damage than a standard fighter.
There are a lot of elements which penalize many small hits. Damage reduction is a good example, as DR 5/- could have a significant penalty to four attacks that deal 1d4+str.
Another example is the strength bonus. You get a lower strength bonus applied to each attack when you make multiple attacks. Though you get more attacks, you're also significantly less likely to hit, meaning that when you *do* hit, you'll get less mileage from your str bonus.
More so, is the consideration of magical weapons. Even weapons with returning only come back at the end of your turn. So if you want to enhance your daggers to keep up with, say, a fighter with a greatsword, you're spending a lot more money for the same equivalent bonus.
Dagger throwing is a very flavorful concept, but mechanically speaking it has a few problems. Your best bet to make a dagger build more effective in combat is to talk to your dm about allowing you a couple things.
First thing you'll want to request is a magical bandoleer to enchant like a weapon, to bestow its effects on your daggers like a bow does with arrows fired from it. It's ok if the DM runs this cost as the same as enchanting two weapons. You're using TWF, so it's fair to pay the cost of enchanting two weapons to keep you on par with actual two weapon fighters.
Next, you're going to want to verify that certain feats are usable at range with daggers. One that comes to mind is two-weapon rend. It has a high requirement, but adds significantly to your damage at higher levels. You'll have some issues between maintaining a high enough dex to pick up the feats you need for the twf chain, and maintaining enough str to make each dagger deal enough damage to bypass dr.
And just in case, you'll want to keep a good 2-hander nearby for creatures you can only hit on a 20 :)