I`m going to add my voice on the side advocating CHA...
Although the idea of `two paths` depending on gun style is appealing in a way, I think that would necessitate a stronger separation between gun styles than the class really has (of course, weapon focus/spec/etc applies only to one, but I`m speaking of general class abilities and capabilities).
CHA just feel much more appropriate to me. CHA doesn`t mean everybody likes you. High CHA probably means you COULD make everybody like you if you wanted to, but it also means you could be very `sucessful` at being a sociopath, Intimidating everybody to get your way. Also note: they DON`T have Diplomacy as a Class Skill, i.e. they AREN`T the best at using CHA in a socially acceptable manner.
Fundamentally, I don`t think WIS is the stat for THIS class. I could see a `Firearm Ranger style` + Archetype that used WIS, and I could see a Gunslinger + Monk PrC that allowed using WIS for Grit+Ki (or merged the two pools), but not for the core Gunslinger. I mean, WIS can certainly be useful to the Gunslinger, for Perception/Sense Motive/Will Saves/Survival, but I`d prefer to have `powerful Gunslingers` who don`t have a high WIS. High CHA can just mean they`re able to piss off more people, effectively. And I also feel like the Gunslinger ´wants to´ be more viable a Multi-Class with Sorcerors or Oracles...
Since I brought up a WIS-based Fire-Arm Ranger style, I should say I can also see a further Ranger variant, or maybe PrC requiring both Gunlinger and Ranger levels (up to the point where spells are gained). You PrC out of Ranger juut when you would gain spells, and instead of normal WIS-based Ranger spell, you have a special spell list with a more Arcane focus, that is CHA based... Maybe throwing in a Familiar instead of Animal Companion (same type of Level Adjustment for Familiar that Ranger Companions normally have). This seems like it could work in the wierd-magic areas of Nex, with influence from Alkenstar.
This might be a dumb question.
But if it is called Grit, why not base it on Constitution. It is based off a fighter build after all.
I strongly lean towards wisdom base. These guys have will power. Gunslingers don't relie on personality, they relie on their gun. People skills, bah, I just shoot that slick talking son of a @#$%$. Plus many gunslingers are loners and not leaders. Not all, but many.
Again, I can see others perspective on this.
To repeat, they DON´T have Diplomacy as a Class Skill, but do have Bluff and Intimidate, and changing Grit from WIS to CHA doesn´t imply giving them Diplomacy as a Class Skill. Gunslingers using CHA for Grit seems analagous to odd-ball Aberrant Sorcerors and Oracles with high CHA... Those aren´t necessarily ´social butterflies´, just they tend to have SOME TYPE of impact on people - not necessarily good - when they DO interact with them... Intimidate and Bluff are the Gunslinger CHA Class Skills, not Diplomacy.
I DO think they definitely need Sense Motive and Perception as Class Skills, if not some +1/2 Class Level bonus, which they currently don´t have... That would in some way compensate for de-emphasizing WIS if Grit is switched to CHA.
Grit IS a concept associated with strength of personality, not a physical trait per se.... Though it could be said to have qualities of mind-over-body in certain applications... so CHA or WIS clearly seem more appropriate here than CON, IMHO. Especially when most of the uses tend not to be feats of physical endurance, but ´extraordinary´ feats of gun combat.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
I really hate to get into another "This class should be based on X ability" discussion (I'm having APG playtest flashbacks already!), but put me down in support of Wisdom.
To have 'Grit' is to be fearless and unyielding in the face of hardship or danger. In game terms, that's Wisdom. When you get hit with a fear effect, or someone tries to Intimidate you, you resist that with Wisdom.
If the daring act recharge mechanism is what's throwing people off, here's how I see it; it isn't about being reckless (although that certainly might be a side effect), it's about being courageous. It's not about showing off or doing something flashy, it's about striving against the odds. Courage, stick-with-it-ness, dedication, again, that's Wisdom.
I can see how a Gunslinger class could be Cha based, certainly the staredown, intimidating presence, overawe your opponent type Gunslinger is a common and popular archetype, but that isn't this Gunslinger. This Gunslinger is about having Grit, and Grit is definitely Wisdom.
The thing that keeps coming up is that some people keep equating Cha with attractiveness and smooth-talking. That's only one side of it. Charisma is just your force of personality, your presence. People take you seriously. They respect you even if they don't like you. Or they're scared of you. Maybe they hate you with an unnatural passion. That's all charisma. And it CAN fit some versions of a gun-slinger, but not all of them.
I think I'm definitely unsure of this. Maybe Grit should be based purely on level. After all, you can recharge it all day. None of the other point-based systems can do that. And you can take feats to increase it on top of that. Tough call. I could see several different ways to make a gun-slinger.
Why not "Wisdom OR Charisma mod, whichever is higher"?
I totally agree with this. It has the added benefit of allowing different players' gunslingers to BE different.
Paladins have CHA to Saves.
Fearless and unyielding in the face of hardship or danger, yada yada.
HEROIC Gunslingers are pretty much the early-modern Paladin, after all... Just sayin´.
So what if Ninja´s went to WIS? (since they´re ultra trained in esoteric arts, etc)
Does a 4 level Monk dip (double dipping on Ki Pool) become too obvious then?
Then again, 4 levels is not just a dip, so I don´t EVERYBODY would do that by any means...
That also makes such a heavy multi-class SOMEWHAT viable, which seems reasonable for those 2 classes.
half-elven magus/pistolero.
I was pondering last night a variation of the arcane archer for the gunslinger.
I think this thread highlights how no one can agree what the hell Charisma is.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
Paladins have CHA to Saves.
Fearless and unyielding in the face of hardship or danger, yada yada.
HEROIC Gunslingers are pretty much the early-modern Paladin, after all... Just sayin´.
Paladins have Cha to saves through Divine Grace, which has nothing to do with Grit.
And Paladins are the exception, not the rule. They don't even make saves against fear after 3rd level.
From the Merriam Webster dictionary
Grit: firmness of mind or spirit; unyielding courage in the face of hardship or danger.
Sounds like more of an argument for Wisdom than Charisma.
And we now have classes using both WIS and CHA to power KI... :-)
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
And that's ruffling plenty of feathers on it's own. :D
Besides, Ki is not Grit. Ki is ill-defined mystical hoo-ha, something akin to life-energy. Undead already use Charisma to represent their mystical life-energy, so having the Ninja do it too isn't too far of a stretch.
For what it's worth, add my vote to CHA. And that's because CHA can mean a lot of things (*), but one thing is for sure: gunslingers are BADASS.
And PF's 'slingers are EVEN more badass -- just see the description and the grit mechanic.
Now, I understand that WIS can mean courage, poise and stuff, but c'mon... just say it alound -- "a wise gunslinger". It's just wrong! It's so wrong that if it came from another source I would have bet it was a typo!
So, please, just scratch this WIS silliness and make it CHA-based. CHA is perfect, but even other solutions (DEX, CON, whatever) make much more sense than WIS.
thanks,
Stefano
(*) although definitely NOT comeliness... this is for the guy noting that gunslingers are "fugly" -- huh?
You don't need awesome social skills to be badass. Take the feat that lets you add STR bonus to Intimidate if you want "badass"
I know we can go on forever about this, but CHA is definitely not a measure of "social skills". Those are a consequence of CHA, which is a concept that can be best explained by the original (Polynesian) term "mana".
CHA is pure personal magnetism, an aura that can take an arcane, praeternatural form (sorcerers), or express rock-steady faith (paladins) or religious kerigma (clerics)(*). And yes, it can be sexy too (although, as I said, it's very wrong to associate it with comeliness). And can make for a great orator.This is the reason why it fuels so many different classes: the cleric, for example, calls upon her personal aura, her inner power, to repel/destroy undead.
In this sense, for gunslingers CHA may be taken as a measure of "badass", since (as somebody else noted) it has to fuel the grit, which is the inner reserve.
In other words, badass is the gunslinger's ki :)
later,
S
(*) Kerigma is the greek word from which CHA is derived. It's not by chance that in the New Testament it's used exactly to mean the announcement of the christian message. Even now, the Pope is considered (by dogma) the embodiment of the "apostolic kerigma".
Quite frankly, I'd rather grit be tied to no attribute, unless that attribute does other things for the gunslinger. Right now it's just an attribute tax.
|
Wis = willpower = silent warrior = zen
Stop equating Cha as the "Je ne sais quoi" mental stat.
A mute cowboy with a huge disgusting scar that fires first and asks question later has Wis not Cha.
Low Cha means badass. High Cha means friendly or extremely scary or annoying.
Low Cha high Wis is how I want a gunslinger to go. When he slumps his shoulders and tips his hat down, looking at the ground while riding not to draw attention is the definition of Grit, i'm the best at what i do lonesome cowboy that does his job and doesn't put on a freakin' show.
Plus, high Wis is definitely good for their Will Save, which they need badly...
|
|
The more I look at this class, the more I think the whole class should instead be replaced by a 5-feat chain...
I mean, we have a 5-feat chain to get to the Shield Master feat right? no need for a "Sword'n'Board-slinger" class...
The same should be done in order to make a fighter awesome with guns (or with any other concept centered around the use of some piece of equipment really...)
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
I am throwing in my vote for Wisdom being the stat grit is based on.
For one, the only thing encouraging reckless action is the suggested way to regain grit, which I highly suggest be removed.
All of the abilities and deeds show wisdom, the common sense and self control that a true gunfighter would have. The ability to know when to pull a trigger, when to aim at the heart, and when to place an iron plate under your poncho. The best gunslingers don't shoot their mouth off, they study their opponent instead, looking for that opening that means a quick victory. That doesn't mean there weren't any charismatic gunslingers in history or cinema, but the iconic ones were, well, gritty and stone cold.
I love the idea that there will be archetypes for the gunslinger in the same book it is being released in! I think that is where the charisma based gunslinger should be found.
Low Cha means badass. High Cha means friendly or extremely scary or annoying.
I disagree. I think Low Cha means forgettable or laughable, not badass. A High Cha means badass, as it adds to Intimidate.
I think Grit seems like the flavor is more based on CHA, but I'm not a fan of making this a MAD class so I wouldn't object too much to WIS. Though I think ProfessorCirno has it right and it shouldn't be stat based at all.
|
|
I am throwing in my vote for Wisdom being the stat grit is based on.
For one, the only thing encouraging reckless action is the suggested way to regain grit, which I highly suggest be removed.
All of the abilities and deeds show wisdom, the common sense and self control that a true gunfighter would have. The ability to know when to pull a trigger, when to aim at the heart, and when to place an iron plate under your poncho. The best gunslingers don't shoot their mouth off, they study their opponent instead, looking for that opening that means a quick victory. That doesn't mean there weren't any charismatic gunslingers in history or cinema, but the iconic ones were, well, gritty and stone cold.
I love the idea that there will be archetypes for the gunslinger in the same book it is being released in! I think that is where the charisma based gunslinger should be found.
I respectfully bow to you Sir. Well done.
A resounding +1 !
|
|
Low Cha means badass. High Cha means friendly or extremely scary or annoying.I disagree. I think Low Cha means forgettable or laughable, not badass. A High Cha means badass, as it adds to Intimidate.
I think Grit seems like the flavor is more based on CHA, but I'm not a fan of making this a MAD class so I wouldn't object too much to WIS. Though I think ProfessorCirno has it right and it shouldn't be stat based at all.
Cha adding to Intimidate is one of the great flaws of this wonderful game. Intimidate is in a lot of ways useless unless you take the Dazzling Display feat... and THAT could very well use DEX instead of CHA really!