I ran a group through AoW and ran a PC throught SCAP, and we were ok with only 8 extra HP across the board.
wizard 6 +2 con +8 extra HP=16
Barbarian 12+3 con + 8=23 HP
That is about the equivalent of a 2nd or 3rd level character which should be more than enough to survive CR 1 fights.
Personally I think combat is less random at 1st level than at 15th. It depends a lot on adventure setup, though.
One solution that doesn't require extra hp or other house rules, is to design the encounters against several weaker opponents instead of one strong. A bunch of CR 1/3 goblins instead of a CR 1 goblin commando.
Sometimes I even use the commoner class for low-level opponents. It's stated in 3.5 that in warfare, most of the soldiers are actually 1st level commoners with a shortspear, so it's not unique really, but if you're facing a goblin raiding party quite a few of the raiders could be new to the military and only 1st level commoners with some simple weapon. Then you can throw quite a bunch on a first level party and have them succeed.
Not really a problem in my experience. Sure people go down (between -Con and 0 HP) easily. But I've found having the "dying" condition is not very spectacular. Usually combat ends soon enough and/or someone gets around to stabilizing you. You just have to make sure that you do not get surrounded, and that the 20/x3 weapon wielders are bosses.
The stabilize spell is range and unlimited. Pathfinder has death at -Con. These things keep people alive fairly well for the first levels.
I've done full HD hitpoints on the first two or three levels before, but that was for a 3 person group and I didn't feel like tweaking every single encounter of an adventure path.
Though I don't see that big a problem with a change to Con score for first level. I'm sure you won't find it to be a gamebreaking jump in power.
I'm running a game soon, and the party will begin at 1st level. However i've always hated how random combat is at lvl 1, so i wanted the party to have a bit more survivability.
So, my rule is that at 1st level, when determiming your HP, use your Constitution SCORE rather than the modifier. from 2nd level onwards things progress as normal though.
So, do you think that works well?
In our campaigns, we found that the extra hp rule as proposed in the PF Beta works quite well:
Frail races (Elf, gnome, halfling): +4 hp
Normal races (Human, Half-Elf): +6 hp
Sturdy races (Half-Orc, Dwarf): +8 hp
And, since my current campaign is in Eberron, I ruled
Kalashtar: +4 hp
Changeling: +6 hp
Shifter: +8 hp
Warforged: +10 hp
So, assuming you get full hp at first level, an Elf wizard (CON 13) would have 11 hp, and a Warforged Barbarian (CON 18) would be at 26 hp.
This allows for a higher Survivability at low levels without being unbalancing at higher levels.
If someone is very worried starting out, have them find the Amulet of impressive scars. It auto stabilizes while turning the wound into a scar that goes into the description.
I would give them full hit points at first level.
I assume you are ignoring any minuses from low con. How much they min max is otherwise a problem.
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Be careful about giving your characters too many hit points at lower levels as they won't have a way to recover them to any useful degree with the resources a lower level party has. They only recover 1 per night of rest at first level after all.
That and it still won't help low AC low level characters survive that much longer. The most you'd probably want to give is 8 or so extra.
I always suggest people use the optional Hero Points system when they are worried about low level death.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/gamemastering/hero-points
There is a cheat death ability that costs 2 hero points. You only get one hero point for sure a level, so I would start 1st level heroes with 2 or maybe even 3 and then they have an out if they were to die.
It is also just a real fun little system that makes players feel they have a bit more control.
As a group we are used to (and like) brutal combats, and we tend not to have a party healer, but we always survive even though by rights we should have been dropped to -20 or more, and i'm kind of fed up with our usual 'ok, your just at -9, and your fully healed after a night's rest' and decided the 'HP safety buffer' seemed better.
What you might want to consider is to give the average person the ability to "catch their breath" mid-combat.
Instead of having a higher hitpoint total, make it so the thresholds mean something different.
Something like (off the top of my head):
Max hitpoints grants +1 to all rolls.
Less than max hitpoints but higher than 0, normal rolls.
Zero or negative hitpoints, -1 to all rolls and staggered.
At -Con score you are unconscious and have to start rolling checks or die (DC increases every round you are like this).
Catch your Breath options:
When you are in the negatives, you can spend a full round action to bring yourself back up to 1 hitpoint.
Spend a full round action while at 1 hitpoint to cure one rolled hit die of hitpoints (if you multiclass, pick your largest hit die).
This would mean you'll have consequences for having damage (somewhat more brutal), but the safety net is at the lower end, where you are staggered and close to death.
Then you can alleviate the need for a healer by having the "catch your breath" option.
I don't claim to have come up with this kind of idea myself. It's something that some FPS games use. More recently, I've played Sniper: Ghost Warrior, where as long as you aren't overwhelmed too quickly, you can wait a few seconds and your hitpoints jump back up to ~30 or so.
Great for a game where you have no healing backup.
If you take the homebrewed feat Surgury, you can make a heal check with dex to sew your own wounds.
Alternately, you can enact Coma rules. The character can wake up in a hospital about a month later.
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Well I do Bonus HP By Size. so far it's working out well enough. As far as the players are concerned, I apply it to NPCs as well though. it's mostly to reduce the chance of a lucky hit taking someone out at low levels. Though for mooks, I often don't bother giving them the extra hit points, or give them the extra hitpoints instead of a regular hit die. the human commoner in the street will have 8+con mod hit points, I'll add his level in commoner if he's plot relevent.
Here's what I use, feel free to use it if you want.
Tiny: +4
Small: +6
Medium: +8
Large: +10
Huge: +12
etc.
And I can never remember the size between tiny and diminutive, but it gets a +2 (frog size).
Well I do Bonus HP By Size. so far it's working out well enough. As far as the players are concerned, I apply it to NPCs as well though. it's mostly to reduce the chance of a lucky hit taking someone out at low levels. Though for mooks, I often don't bother giving them the extra hit points, or give them the extra hitpoints instead of a regular hit die. the human commoner in the street will have 8+con mod hit points, I'll add his level in commoner if he's plot relevent.
Here's what I use, feel free to use it if you want.
Tiny: +4
Small: +6
Medium: +8
Large: +10
Huge: +12
etc.And I can never remember the size between tiny and diminutive, but it gets a +2 (frog size).
Fine.
Another thought is to give them their con bonuses from levels 1-3 at level 1; meaning a 13 con would give them +3 hp at first level, but no con bonus to hp for the next 2 levels, wakadimaska?
All creatures, NPC, and PC = Get there Con score added to them.
So first level is CON + con bonus + Roll 1d# number for class hp. (I do not give max hp at first level).
Found this encourages Melee type pay more attention to there con score.
Found that this also lets wizard survive 3 or 4 hits with a long sword.
Found that this give PC a chance to RUN if things go bad.
Although the fights do last a little longer at low levels, this is usually seen as a plus with most players.
By 6th level the extra Hp becomes a wash, and its back to normal, since everything has +Con.
All creatures, NPC, and PC = Get there Con score added to them.
So first level is CON + con bonus + Roll 1d# number for class hp. (I do not give max hp at first level).
Found this encourages Melee type pay more attention to there con score.
Found that this also lets wizard survive 3 or 4 hits with a long sword.
Found that this give PC a chance to RUN if things go bad.
Although the fights do last a little longer at low levels, this is usually seen as a plus with most players.By 6th level the extra Hp becomes a wash, and its back to normal, since everything has +Con.
That sounds VERY high, and would really destroy the ability of fighters at low levels. You should consider also giving everyone a large save bonus or spell resistance or something, because what you do there is making a goblin survive 3 or 4 turns against the fighter, but still being easily one-shotted by a wizard with color spray.
That sounds VERY high, and would really destroy the ability of fighters at low levels. You should consider also giving everyone a large save bonus or spell resistance or something, because what you do there is making a goblin survive 3 or 4 turns against the fighter, but still being easily one-shotted by a wizard with color spray.All creatures, NPC, and PC = Get there Con score added to them.
So first level is CON + con bonus + Roll 1d# number for class hp. (I do not give max hp at first level).
Found this encourages Melee type pay more attention to there con score.
Found that this also lets wizard survive 3 or 4 hits with a long sword.
Found that this give PC a chance to RUN if things go bad.
Although the fights do last a little longer at low levels, this is usually seen as a plus with most players.By 6th level the extra Hp becomes a wash, and its back to normal, since everything has +Con.
Give just the wizards the con, hit, boost so they can survive an ambush.
Which color spray would have done anyway, if the wizard get the spell off first, before the fighter attacks.
...
And the idea is to let the player enjoy combat a little, not ( i swing your dead, oh sorry you get no turn or action at all ) is not very fun.
PS = I got really tired of throwing snakes, bats, rats, and squarrls at first level players. At least now they can take on a ambush from orc or lizard man, with a Great Sword.
I don't like the "Full HP for this HD" bonus on 1st. Characters get normal HP for all HD (I use average rounded up).
I do grant everyone an extra virtual HD - not good for level-dependant stuff like BAB or how colour spray affects you, but you get bonus HP equal to 1d8 (=5 in my games) plus con bonus.
Frail races (Elf, gnome, halfling): +4 hp
Normal races (Human, Half-Elf): +6 hp
Sturdy races (Half-Orc, Dwarf): +8 hp
I don't like it, it's racist ;-) (It does throw the balance out of balance).
I've had good results with +10 hit points at first level plus max hit points from class hit die modified by CON modifier.
We use average hit points per die after 1st level, instead of rolling.
Let's go with giving PCs the first 3 levels of hit points so they can keep up with the half dragon PCs.
I don't like the "Full HP for this HD" bonus on 1st. Characters get normal HP for all HD (I use average rounded up).
I do grant everyone an extra virtual HD - not good for level-dependant stuff like BAB or how colour spray affects you, but you get bonus HP equal to 1d8 (=5 in my games) plus con bonus.
Frail races (Elf, gnome, halfling): +4 hp
Normal races (Human, Half-Elf): +6 hp
Sturdy races (Half-Orc, Dwarf): +8 hp
I don't like it, it's racist ;-) (It does throw the balance out of balance).
Yeah, but a CON-dependent bonus is elitist...:-)
You're giving those who already have the most hp even more.
Last year I ran a game using the Beta rules alternative, adding +6 HP to all PCs at first level. This worked well for our group giving an extra round or two of HP. The wizard liked it the most, feeling that he was much more capeable of surviving combat.
After about 3rd to 4th level those extra HP are a non-factor due to the higher attack damage of level appropriate encounters.
-Flea
well there is some fun to screaming down the hallways arms flailing in the air, and escaping at full speed because the pugwampi boss has more hit points left than the entire party combined!
that being said, those who feel they dont have enough hit points can always use the toughness feat.
+3 hit points at 1st level.
You CAN make survivable characters at low level, you just can't run the "perfect" character all planned out for all 20 levels, if you have to take an unexpected feat like toughness. It's cause and effect, do i want more HPs or my fancy KABLAM feat!
I odnt like a ton of extra HPs for characters, so a PC fighter gets an extra 6, but the NPC fighter doesnt?
id rather track hero points in that case.
I odnt like a ton of extra HPs for characters, so a PC fighter gets an extra 6, but the NPC fighter doesnt?
Yes. It's like the UA or Eberron action points. Only the heroes get them.
Because they are heroes.
well the extra HP are there to protect them from me, rather than anything else.
You see, this is my first time DMing, but most of the big encounters early on are monsters i've designed myself, which are capable of quite high damage and possess high hp themselves. As a group we are used to (and like) brutal combats, and we tend not to have a party healer, but we always survive even though by rights we should have been dropped to -20 or more, and i'm kind of fed up with our usual 'ok, your just at -9, and your fully healed after a night's rest' and decided the 'HP safety buffer' seemed better.
The goal is to make the important encounters last as long as they deserve to be without half the party dropping in the first turn, and for the avarage encounters to be relatively easy as they should be.
Then look hard at encouter on how make them. What are the CR that they facing? Is it fair CR +or- 3 at best. Or just start the game at level 2 or 3. And if PC want to play with out a heeler that there fault not yours.
Pathfind is death at - CON ie if CON 18 Fighter with favor class Fighter it start with 15 HP and would die at -19 HP.
Sound like real problem is that party need learn to take healing class.
What is the Party make up?
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Yes. It's like the UA or Eberron action points. Only the heroes get them.
Because they are heroes.
Pathfinder has them too.
Here's the system I came up with. wizards gain an average bonus of 3.5 hit points, barbarians gain an average of 15.5. seems to work pretty well.
1st level:
max hit points
2nd level:
instead of d6, roll 1d4+2
instead of d8, roll 1d4+4
instead of d10, roll 1d4+6
instead of d12, roll 1d4+8
3rd level:
d6 rolls normally
instead of d8, roll 1d6+2
instead of d10, roll 1d6+4
instead of d12, roll 1d6+6
4th level:
d6 and d8 rolls normally
instead of d10, roll 1d8+2
instead of d12, roll 1d8+4
5th level:
d6, d8, and d10 roll normally
instead of d12, roll 1d10+2
6th level and up, everyone rolls normally
I really liked those and still use them as well.In our campaigns, we found that the extra hp rule as proposed in the PF Beta works quite well:
Frail races (Elf, gnome, halfling): +4 hp
Normal races (Human, Half-Elf): +6 hp
Sturdy races (Half-Orc, Dwarf): +8 hp
I did that for my new campaign as well, it seems to work well. But indeed, at first level, healing can be scarce, especially if you have a Druid as divine caster in the group. I like the size-dependent bonus as well, even though it makes no difference for most PCs.
Stefan
Sometimes I even use the commoner class for low-level opponents. It's stated in 3.5 that in warfare, most of the soldiers are actually 1st level commoners with a shortspear, so it's not unique really, but if you're facing a goblin raiding party quite a few of the raiders could be new to the military and only 1st level commoners with some simple weapon. Then you can throw quite a bunch on a first level party and have them succeed.
[OT]This is interesting. I have the half-formed idea that commoners would retrain instead of gaining levels in commoner once they have some xp - or even some experience in the common sense of the word. So, a commoner surviving a military campaign could be considered a warrior afterward, somebody gaining some folk wisdom might become a adept, and so on. I think I will revert to the old XD&D usage of a 0-level or normal man for average folks, with the option of having them retrained in a NPC or even PC class.
Stefan
I'm running a game soon, and the party will begin at 1st level. However i've always hated how random combat is at lvl 1, so i wanted the party to have a bit more survivability.
So, my rule is that at 1st level, when determiming your HP, use your Constitution SCORE rather than the modifier. from 2nd level onwards things progress as normal though.
So, do you think that works well?
That's how I started out my Pathfinder PC's with in my game. We've only had one character death, but a few of the PC's have been down to or beneath zero more than a few times. Most of all though it makes me feel better as a DM about not having to pull any punches.
We dont roll for hit points anymore either its average HD + con bonus per level.