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Dear Paizo Games,
I would like it if you would conceder producing a line of pre-painted plastic non-random miniatures to replace the loss of the D&D miniatures.
WOTC's actions have left a niche in the market that you would be in a great postilion to fill, and Paizo has shown a talent as a company to provide products that are useful to players and GM's alike.
Thank you for your time,
David "Scott" Crosson
Long time fan.
Chief Technical Officer
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Boy, I already posted this once today:
We've said this before, but basically, if Reaper ever decides that it makes financial sense for them to do prepainted plastic in the Pathfinder line, we'll be happy to let them. I wouldn't hold your breath, though—after all, there is a reason Wizards isn't doing them anymore.
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Boy, I already posted this once today:
We've said this before, but basically, if Reaper ever decides that it makes financial sense for them to do prepainted plastic in the Pathfinder line, we'll be happy to let them. I wouldn't hold your breath, though—after all, there is a reason Wizards isn't doing them anymore.
Sorry about that you were posting that the same time I was posting this. :)
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I have this to say about this topic. I LOVE the metal miniatures and the plastic miniatures for the cannon fodder type of creatures. For instance zombies, orcs, goblins, kobolds, gnolls and so on... The type of creatures where they are almost considered common and something you might encounter a TON of during an encounter.
I love the Metallic minis for specials, like the Big Boss type of creature. The unique's in the figure world like Vampire's, Dragons, unique NPC's and the like, even having them for Player characters. This gives perspective and something to be proud of both as a DM and as a player.
The metal minis I could never have enough of because of the common need for the orcs and such that I would love to see in plastic, to make my not having to paint each of them myself not to mention having to buy hundreds of them, at the cost of the metal ones. I just enjoy the overall aspect of being cheap in some cases and going all out in others.
This is where I wish that WotC had gone instead of doing what they did. Doing a run of the more common ones and leaving the special ones out. Then packaging them like a bag of old toy soldiers used to be :)
wotc constantly missed the boat on what fans wanted, packs of iconic enemies.
Ever see the Zombies board game, they sold Bags O Zombies extra, I would have slain for a bag of painted zombies, let alone orcs or goblins
Right.
Another example of WotC being unable to adapt fast enough.
Their try with the heroes pack was too late and too little. Instead of dangerous delve they could have produced non random packs of thematically linked creatures - even ones from existing molds.
But even as the prepainted plastic addict that I am I can see the difficulties in this. Plastic has become a valuable resource even in china and the hordes of nimble chinese painters finally make a move towards some more acceptable working conditions and payment - more power to them I say!
Alas, this also means that prepainted plastic minis are no longer the good and cheapish thing that they were when WotC started the DDM idea.
I'm also a huge fan of prepainted plastic minis (own more than 3k of them).
Since Reaper already had a prepainted mini line which was cancelled I doubt we will see any more of them soon-what a shame.
I'd happily pay about 20$ for a Pathfinder Mini Booster with about 7 Minis I think.
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wotc constantly missed the boat on what fans wanted, packs of iconic enemies.
Ever see the Zombies board game, they sold Bags O Zombies extra, I would have slain for a bag of painted zombies, let alone orcs or goblins
This.
Missing the train of thematic sets for cannon fodder minis to be used in RPG games was a mistake.The lack of useful commons/uncommons in the later sets - at least in useful numbers, compared to the rares frequency - has dealt a critical hit.
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wotc constantly missed the boat on what fans wanted, packs of iconic enemies.
Ever see the Zombies board game, they sold Bags O Zombies extra, I would have slain for a bag of painted zombies, let alone orcs or goblins
This.
Missing the train of thematic sets for cannon fodder minis to be used in RPG games was a mistake.The lack of useful commons/uncommons in the later sets - at least in useful numbers, compared to the rares frequency - has dealt a critical hit.
Yep.
Packs of 8 orcs/kobolds/trogs/goblins/hobgoblins/drow/human-bandit/etc (one chief, one spellcaster, 6 normal - all different) would have had the RPG buyers salivating even though it wouldn't have supported the minis game.
Elfseras does this with some of their pre-painted metals but they are a bit pricey.
Honestly, I generally dislike the "random boosters". What a load of bull. I want thematic sets and cheap sets. Cheap sets typically also means that more figures should be in a set. Seriously I don't want to buy 10 packs to get a workable number of minis. I have a theme in mind, and want to buy one or two packs to cover my needs for that theme.
e.g: "Undead horde", for $30
Containing some 12 guaranteed undead (at least 2 of which are "special"), and 6 randomized undead (at least 2 of which are "special").
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I'm also a huge fan of prepainted plastic minis (own more than 3k of them).
Since Reaper already had a prepainted mini line which was cancelled I doubt we will see any more of them soon-what a shame.
I'd happily pay about 20$ for a Pathfinder Mini Booster with about 7 Minis I think.
Reaper's prepainted mini line was cancelled? Really? I know there are a number of threads talking about Wizards of the Coast canceling THIER prepainted mini line, I haven't heard anything about Reaper doing the same.
Any chance you have a link to such an announcement?
Oh. And a handy "Complete Iconics" containing all the class iconics. For $20.
Cheapness is relevant. I dont want masterwork plastic figurines. I want many cheap ones. The high-end stuff is for the serious collector.
Cheapness is relevant. I dont want masterwork plastic figurines. I want many cheap ones. The high-end stuff is for the serious collector.
+1
However, the high-end stuff is not just for collectors, but 'hobbyist' would be a better word. Ever look at the GW "Golden Demon" stuff? *wow* That is what I think of when you say "high end"
But, all I want from pre-painted-plastics is models I can see the difference between orc and goblin and gnoll and zombie and skeleton and lich. Detailed enough to be good; cheap enough to be plentiful.
GNOME
It's hard to find (affordable) plastic figurines in South Africa. When we play at my place, we make use of these awesome GoGos! Why?? Because I could get 40 of them for $10.
Maybe that statement came from a wholly European view. At least in Germany and France it's impossible to find a retailer for Reaper Legendary Encounters.
It's hard to find (affordable) plastic figurines in South Africa. When we play at my place, we make use of these awesome GoGos! Why?? Because I could get 40 of them for $10.
Hey, that's cute! My son collects them too.
Well, Gogos and Gormitis...
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Maybe that statement came from a wholly European view. At least in Germany and France it's impossible to find a retailer for Reaper Legendary Encounters.
Well, I know a couple of stores in germany (web- and otherwise) that sell Legendary encounters, even if not all are available at a time.
The Webshops I ordered before would be:f-shop.de
tellururian.de
I'd totally buy a "here's a pack of all the even slightly exotic monsters you need for this adventure path" pack of prepainted plastic minis. My mini painting skills are beyond terrible, and if I get one of my players to paint all the minis for an AP it kind of defeats the point.
I've heard that the cost to make per-painteds has risen to the point where it's not profitable, but how does Heroclix, Heroscape, Elfsera and other companies do it?
There's obviously a demand out there. I would personally pay a little extra for pre-painted than have to assemble and paint myself. Themed sets would be a great idea, based on APs or Game Mastery modules.
To be honest the only thing I would like prepainted plastic minis for at this point are gargantuan and larger creatures.
Really, the problem with pre-painted minis in general is the amount of time it takes to paint each one by hand. Say that you sell packs of 6 to 8 minis for $20 a box. That means that each mini costs about $3.34-$2.50 each. Now think about how much the person painting them is getting paid an hour and how long it takes to paint each mini. My friend and I have considered starting up a small homemade mini company for our Pathfinder games using AutoCAD and a small C&C mill. Making the mini's themselves isn't that hard or expensive after a moderate one time cost, but painting them is much more time consuming and expensive.
I've heard that the cost to make per-painteds has risen to the point where it's not profitable, but how does Heroclix, Heroscape, Elfsera and other companies do it?
There's obviously a demand out there. I would personally pay a little extra for pre-painted than have to assemble and paint myself. Themed sets would be a great idea, based on APs or Game Mastery modules.
WOTC killed Heroscape about 3 months ago. This is after a year of them using recycled DD Mini molds to make Heroscape figures.
The sculpting and old molds were apparently a cost cutting savings. The game rules were outsourced to independant contractors (IE. long-time fans). All they had to to do was pay for production, packaging and shipping to the U.S. distributors. Apparently even under this production model the minis didn't make enough $$$.
Remember, for a company like WOTC, a product line may be profitable and still be killed. This is because it may not be profitable ENOUGH.
To be honest the only thing I would like prepainted plastic minis for at this point are gargantuan and larger creatures.
Luckily for you, these are the things you're more likely to find as toys, models, etc, that can be used as minis.
To be honest the only thing I would like prepainted plastic minis for at this point are gargantuan and larger creatures.Luckily for you, these are the things you're more likely to find as toys, models, etc, that can be used as minis.
True, but it is so hard to find something that matches exactly, and they almost never make them in metal. Of course I have a very large quantity of the DDM figures at this point.:)
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I stopped buying the wotc prepainted boosters after Giants of Legend. I ended up with seven feindish T-rexes out of the twelve boxes I opened.
==
AKA 8one6
Reaper doesn't make prepainted plastics anymore, but their new sister company Asylum Miniatures does. Part of the reorg into "Hobby-Q" they announced a few weeks back.
http://www.asylummini.com/
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Chief Technical Officer
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The Reaper/Asylum Legendary Encounters line is available at paizo.com here.
There is another wave of four figures coming sometime soonish.
I'd love inexpensive PATHFNDER Minis.
But until then, I like the PF Paper Minis.
And of course Legos = Plastic Minis
Now think about how much the person painting them is getting paid an hour and how long it takes to paint each mini.
Their manager might be making $1/hr...
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Reaper minis are made in America - employs US workers etc. Pre-painted need to be done O/Sea and specifically China in all likelyhood.
Stick with the current minis and get what you need for plastics off ebay.
All of Reapers mins including the Plastics are made in the good old USA. :)
I think that a "themed pack" (like a icons box, goblin box, etc.) system would be more successful than Wizards way.
Also IF YOU WANT MORE PLASTIC MINS THEN GO AND GRAB YOU SOME OF THE REAPER PLASTICS.
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Hmm, I have to agree. Someone innovative needs to pick up this ball. I do feel that the changing business model was mishandled. I think Paizo would be right to take over this legacy but I know that is just one more step into becoming biggerer and biggerer.
Lisa worked the Stars Wars Miniature line. She knows what it is about. If she feels it could fly I am sure she is wrapping her brain around it as we speak.
You don't here announcements like this and not think if you could have done it better. There is some fundamental shifts going on here.
Lisa worked the Stars Wars Miniature line. She knows what it is about. If she feels it could fly I am sure she is wrapping her brain around it as we speak.
She did? I thought the Paizo folks left WotC well before the D&D and SW minis lines came out.
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The strangest place I've seen selling minis which you could use for gaming is the Bayeux Tapestry Museum.
They sold packs of monsters that looked about the right size but I didn't have any cash left when I was there.
And here's a link to them on amazon
They've got a bunch of sets
mythology: medusa, satyr, two hoplites, centaur, ogre, minotaur, pegasus, cerebus, barbarian
forgotten lands: orc riding lizard, knight on horse, dire boar, evil wizard, orc, two-weapon fighter, dwarf, skeleton on skeletal horse
once upon a time: hero and villain, both on horseback, small green dragon, fairy with wand, unicorn, woman in rags, princess, evil queen, good king, classic wizard
knights: 4 knights on horseback, one human archer, human with halberd, human with sword and standard.
dragons: blue, red, green, two-headed, skeletal, sleeping bronze - all medium/large
gladiators: lion, tiger, emperor, and 8 warriors in a range of different weapon and armour sets
skeleton army: 20 skeletons, 5 in armour, 5 with halberds, 5 with axes, 5 with bows.
silver warriors: 20 warriors in full armour with a range of weapons (4 types)
horror: imp, mad doctor, vampire, werewolf, pumpkinhead, headless man, ghost, skelton clutching spellbook, witch, mummy, flesh golem, man with cleaver in skull
pirates...
lucky luke (cowboys and injuns)
asterix... :D
unfriendly lands: orc barbarian, 4 greatsword skeletons, medium red dragon, dwarf, sorceress, graveknight on nightmare steed.
golden warriors: 20 warriors in full bronze armour
samurai and ninja: one archer, two horseback samurai, 2 armoured samurai, 1 unarmoured, 3 black-pj ninjas.
They also do a load of very big dragons.
I'm going to buy a set, then I'll let people know if they're the right scale. Obviously no dnd-style bases if that's an issue.
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Lisa worked the Stars Wars Miniature line. She knows what it is about. If she feels it could fly I am sure she is wrapping her brain around it as we speak.She did? I thought the Paizo folks left WotC well before the D&D and SW minis lines came out.
Hmm, maybe I am wrong but I thought she worked the brand at least.
The strangest place I've seen selling minis which you could use for gaming is the Bayeux Tapestry Museum.
They sold packs of monsters that looked about the right size but I didn't have any cash left when I was there.
It seems to be a french-based company producing several lines, with their main line producing big "miniatures" about 4 inches high for a human, and a smaller line where the minis are 4.5 cm high average, about 1.8 inches. So, it seems that these minis are a little too big. Still, dragons and similar stuff should be usable, of course.
Stefan
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I also play Hordes (Privateer Minis games...)
Something like this would be awesome. I know that they are right down the way (A friend at PP called you folks 'friendly neighbors'.
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/trollbloods/units/fennblade-unit
Very detailed plastic, not pre-painted, btw... Arms are seperated from the body, in th case of the Fennblades above.
10 Mini, 49.99
Warspear Unit, Ogre sized... 44.99 for 5
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/legion-of-everblight/units/legion- of-everblight-warspears-unit
Not sure of exactly which other units are plastic, but you get the point. For plastic, details are fantastic.
-Uriel
...there is a reason Wizards isn't doing them anymore.
Yeah, but what is the reason, really? If production costs are increasing, fine. But until someone better informed than me (which is pretty much anyone, to be honest) straightens me out, I have to believe that they just weren't selling enough, which in turn I believe to be a direct result of two decisions on their part:
1. Devoting so much of their line to things like "fiendish half-dragon fireborn necromancer beholderkin" instead of far more common creatures more likely to see use in a game; and
2. Random blind packaging of these figures, initially obliging buyers to acquire many useless figures in hopes of obtaining one or two they might want. (This became somewhat less of a comsumer issue once the aftermarket got going and a decent number of individual figures were available through third party resellers.)
In my humble and uninformed opinion, Hasbro/WotC hasn't demonstrated that prepainted plastic minis is an unprofitable venture, they've only demonstrated that they don't know how to do it.
And yes, I'm feeling uncharitable toward them at the moment because I'm abount to run the "Harrowing the Hook" portion of the Runelords AP and I have no annis figures. The D&D plastic minis lines include a "howling hag" in one set and a "night hag" in another, but I can't tell if either is the proper size and in any case can't find a third suitable stand-in.
I thought they already addressed this....
Sigh. Yes, probably so. I don't catch all the threads. Certainly I'm aware that my post included nothing original on the topic. I'm frustrated and I was venting. I want my prepainted plastic minis from someone, doggone it, and I'm not going to get them.
I want my prepainted plastic minis from someone, doggone it, and I'm not going to get them.
Agreed. I'm sure a number of us are inclined to agree with you. I feel there's still market for them. And I can't paint worth a damn. :P
Paizo is in no position to viably make pre-paints -- that I totally get. But there certainly seems to be enough demand. WotC failed* because of grave execution problems (shocker!).
IMO No one has quite figured out how just yet. I sure haven't, or I'd be doing it. But someone will.
* Note that "failed" is relative. The minis could have been profitable, just not provided a high enough ROI.
which in turn I believe to be a direct result of two decisions on their part:
1. Devoting so much of their line to things like "fiendish half-dragon fireborn necromancer beholderkin" instead of far more common creatures more likely to see use in a game; and
2. Random blind packaging of these figures, initially obliging buyers to acquire many useless figures in hopes of obtaining one or two they might want. (This became somewhat less of a comsumer issue once the aftermarket got going and a decent number of individual figures were available through third party resellers.)
In my humble and uninformed opinion, Hasbro/WotC hasn't demonstrated that prepainted plastic minis is an unprofitable venture, they've only demonstrated that they don't know how to do it.
You're half right, in my opinion.
#1, yes. Too much of the line was dedicated to whacked out garbage, and not enough to the catalog they built (5 Monster Manuals for 3E/3.5, however many for 4E).
#2, however, is a necessity, which has been explained several times by those in the know. Non-random visible packs simply wouldn't sell enough to be profitable. Too many sets/monsters/etc wouldn't sell, which would drag down the overall profitability. The random blind packs allowed the rare "chase" monsters (such as the cool dragons, beholders, illithids, etc.) to drive booster sales and subsidize the not-nearly-as-popular monsters.
The construction of the game around the minis was also a necessity, in my view, as it brought another group of buyers to the game. Undoubtedly, there was overlap between the mini-game players and RPG players, but there were a lot of mini-game folks who didn't care about the RPG. The game was a great draw to the RPG hobby, but even if they didn't stay for the game, they were still buying minis, keeping the line profitable.
Completely changing that game during the 3.5E-to-4E RPG transition burnt a lot of the minis players, and then they were eventually all tossed when the game was discontinued (and yes, I know about the whole DDM Guild, and while it's great that they're around, the fact is, they obviously didn't make enough difference to keep minis around).
As with a lot of things WotC has done lately, I think they mismanaged the minis game into it's cancellation, though I have no "proof" to back that up, save my observations.
I want my prepainted plastic minis from someone, doggone it, and I'm not going to get them.Agreed. I'm sure a number of us are inclined to agree with you. I feel there's still market for them. And I can't paint worth a damn. :P
I'm no artist, but I can actually paint minis pretty well. I used to do quite a bit of it, but the problem was that my purchases of unpainted metal minis and paints increasingly outstripped the number I found time to paint, eventually leaving me with many, many figures in various stages of completion (half painted, just primed, not even assembled, or still in their original packaging)...and paints drying out or separating before I used them very much. So kept some but sold probably 80% of the figures I had at the time and divested myself of paint and brushes.
I am clearly a compulsive buyer of minis. My only good option is to compulsively acquire ready-to-use minis -- prepainted, no assembly required.
I do appreciate that Paizo has started to provide paper minis for their adventure paths. I haven't used them myself, and probably won't for the same reason I've never used flat cardboard monster counters: they just don't feel as "real". But that's purely a taste preference on my part; the AP paper minis are a great service for GMs who want accurate visual representations of creatures specific to an AP and don't want to spend $100++ rounding up individual plastic or metal minis for a single campaign.
You're half right, in my opinion.#2, however, is a necessity, which has been explained several times by those in the know. Non-random visible packs simply wouldn't sell enough to be profitable. Too many sets/monsters/etc wouldn't sell, which would drag down the overall profitability. The random blind packs allowed the rare "chase" monsters (such as the cool dragons, beholders, illithids, etc.) to drive booster sales and subsidize the not-nearly-as-popular monsters.
Given the depth of my ignorance regarding marketing economics, being half right is a win.
Random packaging wouldn't have been nearly as much of a problem (for me) if so many of the creatures hadn't been so bizarre. I'm very happy to have Uncommon, Rare and NighUnobtainable creatures hidden in the mix, but I want those creatures to be, as you say, the cool dragons, beholders, illithids, etc. And meanwhile I don't want the "elite giant greenspawn razorfiend templar" to be a Common.
I bought LOTS of blind booster packs of INWO cards from Steve Jackson Games years ago. I got hundreds of Common duplicates in the process of chasing Rares before they eventually released the All The Cards set. But I could use every card I got. There were no cards so bizarre I'd never be likely to include them in a deck.
Board ate my post. Take 2 --
You're half right, in my opinion.#2, however, is a necessity, which has been explained several times by those in the know. Non-random visible packs simply wouldn't sell enough to be profitable. Too many sets/monsters/etc wouldn't sell, which would drag down the overall profitability. The random blind packs allowed the rare "chase" monsters (such as the cool dragons, beholders, illithids, etc.) to drive booster sales and subsidize the not-nearly-as-popular monsters.
Given the depth of my ignorance on marketing economics, being half right is a win.
Random packaging would have been okay with me if the overall product line had included a lot less of that "whacked out garbage." I'm happy to have Uncommon, Rare and NighUnobtainable beholders, illithids, upper level outsiders and cool dragons. But in the meantime I don't want the Commons to include "elite giant greenspawn razorfiend templars".
I gave Steve Jackson Games a lot of money several years ago buying up random booster packs of INWO cards. I got hundreds of Common duplicates while chasing the Rares. But I could use every card I got; there were no cards so bizarre I'd be unlikely to ever use them in a deck.
Board ate my post. Take 2 --
You're half right, in my opinion.#2, however, is a necessity, which has been explained several times by those in the know. Non-random visible packs simply wouldn't sell enough to be profitable. Too many sets/monsters/etc wouldn't sell, which would drag down the overall profitability. The random blind packs allowed the rare "chase" monsters (such as the cool dragons, beholders, illithids, etc.) to drive booster sales and subsidize the not-nearly-as-popular monsters.
Given the depth of my ignorance on marketing economics, being half right is a win.
Random packaging would have been okay with me if the overall product line had included a lot less of that "whacked out garbage." I'm happy to have Uncommon, Rare and NighUnobtainable beholders, illithids, upper level outsiders and cool dragons. But in the meantime I don't want the Commons to include "elite giant greenspawn razorfiend templars".
I gave Steve Jackson Games a lot of money several years ago buying up random booster packs of INWO cards. I got hundreds of Common duplicates while chasing the Rares. But I could use every card I got; there were no cards so bizarre I'd be unlikely to ever use them in a deck.
Another thing to remember with the randomized packs is there is 1 SKU. It is not only easier to track the quantity you have in stock, it is also easier to market one SKU then individual SKU's for each miniature.