Combat Maneuvers target CMD instead of AC.
Combat Maneuvers has the opposite bonuses/penalties regarding size.
That's pretty much it.
Another difference would be that a successful Combat Maneuver usually ends with the opponent having a "condition", not typically damage, but a possibility. (Prone, Grappled, Disarmed, etc.)
Though you could argue regular attacks can leave opponents with the "conditions" of Wounded(less hitpoints), Unconscious and Dead.
As Daniel said: you're pretty much on the money.
An important consideration is also that many maneuvers are activated as standard actions - so cannot be used as part of a full-round attack or an attack of opportunity. But then again, some (disarm, trip and sunder) can be used intermittently with normal attacks.
I believe you are correct as well. In the same vein, CMD is touch AC plus BAB and STR with the size modifier inverted.
You don`t HAVE to get Agile Maneuvers to use DEX with every Maneuver...
Weapon Finesse applies to attacks using Finesse Weapons, meaning Disarm/Trip/Sunder/any maneuver deliverable via weapon CAN use DEX.
You only need Agile Maneuvers for non-(Finesse)weapon-delivered maneuvers, like Grapple/OverRun/Bullrush. Agile Maneuvers also lets you use DEX for Maneuvers delivered via NON Finesse Weapons, such a Polearms with Trip property, Shield Bash Bullrushes, etc.
...Though anybody who takes Agile Maneuvers is 99% likely to already have Weapon Finesse (since it`s kind of wierd to invest a Feat to use DEX instead of STR on CMB, but use a lower STR on melee/touch attacks), so Agile Maneuvers COULD really have been written more clearly to describe the difference / or net benefit.
^
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
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You don`t HAVE to get Agile Maneuvers to use DEX with every Maneuver...
Weapon Finesse applies to attacks using Finesse Weapons, meaning Disarm/Trip/Sunder/any maneuver deliverable via weapon CAN use DEX.
You only need Agile Maneuvers for non-(Finesse)weapon-delivered maneuvers, like Grapple/OverRun/Bullrush. Agile Maneuvers also lets you use DEX for Maneuvers delivered via NON Finesse Weapons, such a Polearms with Trip property, Shield Bash Bullrushes, etc....Though anybody who takes Agile Maneuvers is 99% likely to already have Weapon Finesse (since it`s kind of wierd to invest a Feat to use DEX instead of STR on CMB, but use a lower STR on melee/touch attacks), so Agile Maneuvers COULD really have been written more clearly to describe the difference / or net benefit.
^
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
What?
How do you figure?
Combat Maneuvers are not melee attacks. They are specific maneuvers used during combat to give you or your party an advantage. Just because you have the hand-eye coordination to wield a Rapier with grace and precision as opposed to just brute force doesn't mean you have the grace to put someone in a head lock. That is two very different paths of training and that is why there are two very different feats for you to take. If your GM lets you just take one then good for you, but that isn't RAW by any means.
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
I don´t know how much clearer I can be, I quoted + bolded the part saying it applies to *attack rolls* made with qualifying weapons, you come back with saying it isn´t a melee attack - a phrase that doesn´t appear in Weapon Finesse. I´ve layed out why Agile Maneuvers is further useful (it also isn´t subject to Shield ACP applying, as WF is).
Applying to attack rolls is very clear. Plenty of other Feats restrict themselves to melee attacks, yet this doesn´t. This is confirmed... LONG AGO.
BTW, Grapple doesn´t utilize UAS in any way, it´s ´it´s own thing´. Yes, this is some-what counter-intuitive (esp. given IUS is a pre-req for Imp Grapple), but that´s the dice. Again, confirmed by Paizo staff, and born out by the precedent of Weapon Focus: ¨Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple¨ demonstrating that Grapple is not using UAS as a vector (if it was, one wouldn´t need a separate WFocus:Grapple, because it would just automatically benefit frow WFocus:UAS).
The RAW of Trip IS rather problematic:
Either ANY weapon can deliver Trip, only Trip Weapons can and since UAS is not a Trip weapon normal characters actually can´t Trip, OR only Trip Weapons can BUT there is also a default non-weapon/´it´s own thing´ Trip attack (analagous to Grapple, implying one could take WFocus:Trip) even though that isn´t mentioned and the RAW just says ´in place of attack´ EXACTLY like Disarm is worded.
The RAW here really needs Errata, #1 to clarify that only Trip Quality weapons can deliver a Trip attack (this intent is confirmed by James Jacobs), and #2 clarifying how non-Weapon Trips are delivered, either as their ´own thing´ or via UAS (this aspect isn´t really clarified by JJ, his feedback seems compatable with UAS, but he doesn´t specify... RAW definitely doesn´t support any Trip linkage to UAS) This is relevant if you have Weapon Focus/Training/Enhancements to UAS, or only have Weapon Finesse (applicable to UAS) but not Agile Maneuvers and want to use DEX for ´Unarmed´ Trips (WHICH SEEMS A COMMON ENOUGH USAGE). This is a case where 3.5 was clearer, explicitly using UAS for the Touch Attack portion of Trip UNLESS using a Trip Weapon... Still no Errata on this after about 1.5 years... :-(
But feel free to flag this thread for FAQ, it´s probably a common confusion.
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IMO
Weapon Finesse should work with: Disarm, Grapple, Trip, Dirty Trick and Steal?
Agile Maneuvers modifies: Bull Rush, Overrun, Sunder, Drag and Reposition.
Also, Agile Maneuvers works for the finesse ones without the finesse feat, or the light weapons (and rapier)?
That is basically my take on it.
Grapple might not work with Finesse, but I have been shown what the right grip can do on someone's arm with very little effort.
Question: Can I sunder while using spell strike/power attack?
Right now I'm using Agile Maneuvers and not Weapon Finesse on a Bard. The game's using an unarmored system, so I've invested in a shield for a controllable source of AC. Through Agile Maneuvers, I have avoided the attack penalty, but I also didn't figure at the time that it would apply on maneuvers made with a whip, but rather just attacks.
I admit, overall, Weapon Finesse would be working out better for me at this point, regardless, but particularly if Finesse applies to whip/rapier/dagger/etc maneuvers. I think by RAW Quandary is most likely correct, but I'll wait and see what other insights are shared before pitching a feat swap to my GM.
Question: "...add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus." Does this mean "use" your CMB in place of making a normal attack? And you face off against CMD for success or failure?
Clarification: Why doesn't Agile Maneuvers work with a whip when doing a combat maneuver to trip? I don't see anything in WF or AM that relates either of them to specific weapon systems.
Clarification: "Add any bonuses.....,and other effects" Would that be talking about MW or magic "to hit" bonuses?
1. Yes, when making Combat Manuever checks.
2. Agile Maneuvers lets you apply your DEX instead of STR for all CMB checks. Weapon Finesse lets you apply your DEX instead of STR for attack rolls with finessable weapons, and by extension, CMB rolls made using a qualified weapon. In the case of using a whip to trip, either can apply.
3. Basically yes. However, you have to be using the weapon as a part of the Manuever to get, say, an enhancement bonus. Using the example of a tripping whip again, any bonuses you have with attacking with a whip (masterwork, magic, weapon focus, etc) will also apply to CMB rolls to trip with that whip. You would not get those same bonuses to make a Bull Rush check however, since the whip itself is not involved.
Question: Can I sunder while using spell strike/power attack?
Sunder uses the Attack Action, while I think Spellstrike (from Magus?) is it`s own special Standard Action, so no on that one.
Sunder CAN benefit from Power Attack (just remember to apply the attack penalty), and it is also compatable with Vital Strike (in which case, doubling/tripling the weapon damage dice vs. the target object`s hardness/HPs).A thorough walk-thru of maneuvers (from basics including action economy, to `alternate` action economy ala Knockback, grapple/pin/grabmonsters, and Errata issues like untyped bonuses to AC/CMD and trip/tripweapon/UAS/weaponfinesse... I`m probably forgetting something) REALLY seems to be a needed topic for Paizo`s Rules Exploration in the Blog.
So, reading this right all you have to do to get near automatic success on any combat manouver is to have some way to get a true strike spell landed on you...
From the Combat manouvers text:
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects..."
From True Strike description:
"Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. "
Seems right to you guys?
So, reading this right all you have to do to get near automatic success on any combat manouver is to have some way to get a true strike spell landed on you...
From the Combat manouvers text:
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects..."From True Strike description:
"Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. "Seems right to you guys?
Yup, True Strike will apply here.