Shingle Runner is a feat that is designed for this concept, plus there are chase rules in the Gamemastery Guide and PRD.
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I played a traceur in a d20 Modern game. To reflect the skills required, I maxed out Balance, Climb, Jump, Spot and Tumble; obviously with several of these skills combined into Acrobatics in Pathfinder it becomes somewhat less skill point intensive. I took the Acrobatic and Run feats (Nimble Moves for Pathfinder as you suggest is also a good one).
Based on the GM’s description of the terrain, I would describe the sort of route I wanted my character to take to get somewhere, adding in extra embellishments such as window ledges, railings, downpipes and terrain features that my character might be able to use to find the most efficient route. The GM would then either rule that I could Take 10 on any required skill checks and get to where I wanted, or else, for difficult routes or in combat situations, he might call for one or more skill checks, with DCs based on the skill descriptions for Balance, Jump, Tumble (now Acrobatics) or Climb in the rule books. Climb wasn’t used that often (parkour typically doesn’t involve a lot of long climbs) but was the skill used to reflect things like hoisting one’s self up a wall, or reaching a distant hand hold (where it didn’t actually involve jumping).
I sometimes also used Spot (Perception) to try to assess the most efficient or easiest route from one point to another. Sometimes the GM would rule, based on the result of this check, that no further skill checks were necessary to undertake this movement.
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I guess I'm not sure what the issue here is, are you a GM looking to introduce these sort of ideas into a game? Is there some specific challenge you want to model?
Acrobatics and climb can model a lot but things like running up walls and slow fall are kind of reserved for monks.
In general I would just assign circumstantial modifiers to everything, my suggestion is you sit down and think about all the various tasks you want your characters to do and assign a DC to each basic task then add circumstantial modifiers on the fly.
I would set a lot of basic checks to be difficult for untrained characters but a cakewalk for trained characters. So jumping through an open window might be DC 10, if it's a glass window maybe DC 20 and take 1d6 points of damage from breaking glass.
A lot of this is already possible but you need to extrapolate it out a bit.
So a character cannot run up a wall but maybe if there is a merchants cart next to the building he can jump make a series of jumps to get on the roof.
To catch a window ledge I would probably assign a DC based on the wall's climb DC plus a modifier based on how hard I think the ledge would be to grab. "Catch Yourself When Falling" is +20, if you are shooting for a ledge I would guess the walls climb DC + 5 or +10 depending on how big the ledge is.
I like the idea of just setting acrobatics DCs for those sorts of things. I seriously dislike 'feat taxes' to do cool stuff that should be achievable with nothing more than skill (that is, skill ranks).
You only get so many feats, and the more feats it costs to do neat stuff, the less interesting and more restricted characters get.
When I GM, I typically let my players come up with cinematic ideas of what they do, and then if they are a little more off the wall or need something a bit extra, I assign a DC skill check to pass to allow it.
I had one player playing a dagger rogue who wanted to dive behind a tavern bar while simultaneously throwing both her daggers, each at a different target.
I asked for an Acrobatics check to not land on her face, and a Sleight of Hand check to allow two attacks with the movement.
I think the DCs were just the jump distance for Acrobatics (which has built in landing DCs), and I think 15 for the Sleight of Hand.
The way I look at setting DCs:
10 - Anyone can pull this off. Unskilled people can do it 50% of the time, while someone skilled can likely pull it off reliably.
15 - Semi-difficult to pull off, but still within realistic norms for the average person (hence, throwing with your other hand while in midair... landing the hit is of course another matter, but that's what TWF is for).
20 - The average person will likely fail at doing this, almost all the time.
25 - The average person will find this impossible to accomplish, but someone who's focused on doing this kind of task will be able to pull it off at least 50% of the time, if not better.
30 - Difficult even for those focused on this kind of task (+20 modifier only gives a 50% chance of success).
35 to 40+ - It would take someone with superhuman talent to consider this task easy. Any normal person, even those heavily trained in the task, can expect to fail on a regular basis.
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These are assuming the levels divided below (assuming a trained individual):
Levels 1-5: Mundane, modifier ~7-13
Levels 6-10: Heroic, modifier ~14-20
Levels 11-15: Mythical, modifier ~21-28
Levels 16-20: Epic, modifier ~29-40+
Not sure it helps, but there is a traceur PrC on one of the brazilian magazines on my collection. If you want I can dig it out and pathfinderize it.
Do you have a copy of 3.5 complete scoundrel? Skill tricks my friend, what you are looking for is skill tricks. I am pretty sure there are examples of everything you can do in parkour already in there, or at least enough to build your own homebrew ones.
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Do you have a copy of 3.5 complete scoundrel? Skill tricks my friend, what you are looking for is skill tricks. I am pretty sure there are examples of everything you can do in parkour already in there, or at least enough to build your own homebrew ones.
I built a monk traceur using Complete Scoundrel, actually. He was fantastic at mobility; so-so at everything else.
Now what about doing more than one of those in a round? Would the DCs change he I were to have a character vault over a table, jump through a window and run up a wall to grab a ledge in the same round?
Roll a check for each one, depending on difficulty. Movement stops when and where they failed the check, of course.
One check for the whole thing would make it difficult to tell where the movement stops, otherwise.
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Now what about doing more than one of those in a round? Would the DCs change he I were to have a character vault over a table, jump through a window and run up a wall to grab a ledge in the same round?
As Kaisoku suggests individual checks, though I'd say not more than a couple in a round. I suspect anyone doing this sort of character is going to be able to do some of these things without a check at all. Leap a 6' table? ~DC 16 even a low level character who is focused on acrobatics is going to be able to nail that.
Just an FYI, but the updated Elocater PrC in Dreamscarred Press' Psionics Unleashed is designed with Free Running in mind.
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This is more or less what I was looking for. Did your GM have a list of DCs, or did he just assign values on the fly? I would rather make a list of DCs because I am terrible about remembering numbers.
I think he assigned DCs on the fly, but used the DCs given in the tables for jumping, climbing, balancing, tumbling etc under skills in the Players Handbook (Core Rules for PF obviously) as a basis for those.
As Kaisoku suggests individual checks, though I'd say not more than a couple in a round. I suspect anyone doing this sort of character is going to be able to do some of these things without a check at all. Leap a 6' table? ~DC 16 even a low level character who is focused on acrobatics is going to be able to nail that.
Well yeah, if it's easy enough to beat the DC without trying (read: rolling a 1 passes), then no need to even ask for the roll.
A first level character really focused on doing this, with an 18 starting stat, could have a modifier as high as +13 (4 Stat, 1 rank, 3 class skill, 3 focus feat, 2 skilled feat), not counting any class specific benefits.By 2nd level, they are clearing DCs of 15 by rolling a 1. And that's not counting any equipment or circumstantial bonus that might be appropriate.
The fact that you can only move so much in a single round fairly limits the number of checks necessary already, unless you are a monk of course. Though if you are moving 50+ feet with a single
What I'd probably do for a game where I wanted to emphasize parkour would be to nail down what kind of minor bonuses I'd be willing to give for being successful.
Things like:
- Adding additional movement for the round (conservation of energy).
- Lifting restrictions (charge without a straight line, etc)
- Granting a +1 bonus to attack (higher ground, attacking at strange angles)
- Granting a +1 bonus to AC (erratic, unpredictable movement)
Then I'd probably add a feat that opened up more options, built like those tactical feats from Complete Adventurer. Basically, the feat grants more than one benefit, depending on some additional conditions.
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I had a character who wanted to standing long jump off a 20 ft ledge and flip over an Ankheg in melee with the rest of the party. In the middle of the flip he wanted to shoot the enemy with his hand crossbow. The enemy was large and occupied 10ft. By RAW this is not allowed without the Shot on the Run feat. I warned him he would not be able to pull it off. He was new to Pathfinder but had alot of 3.5 experience.
Here is how I handled it:
1) Acrobatics (Jump) check to clear the enemy, DC 30 (no running start)
2) Acrobatics check for the flip, DC 10 (made-up)
3) Ranged attack,-10 attack (-4 hit for no Shot on the Run feat, -4 for no Precise Shot feat, -2 for the disorienting flip)
4) Acrobatics check to move through the threatened area, DC 17 = enemy CMD
5) Acrobatics check to reduce the falling damage, DC 15
His second level rogue had a +8 to his Acrobatics check and +4 ranged attack (-6 with the above penalties). Here is how it turned out:
1) Failed
2) Passed
3) Missed
4) Failed
5) Failed
ME - "You take your leap off the edge and you soon realize you are only going to clear 5 ft, but you are able to successfully flip and get a shot off. Unfortunately for [rolled a d4 to see which party member he hit] (barbarian) you hit him instead. I need an attack roll to see if it bypasses (barbarian's) AC... (Barbarian) takes 3 damage. You land on the ground taking 3 points of damage and 5 points of nonlethal. The Ankheg hits you for 9 points of damage and grapples you."
HIM - "I'm unconscious, (lots of swearing and accusing me of cheating). F this I am going back to 4th edition." And he left minutes later.
Rest of party thought I did a good job on the ruling except the rules lawyer. She wanted me to roll a d8 to see which square the bolt would of actually hit.
Seriously, that was awesome. If I were the 2nd level rogue, I would have been just as happy with the spectacular failure as I would have with a success.
Around my table, that would have been fuel for a great gaming story to repeat to our friends.
It's like those shows where someone is gearing up to do something really awesome and immediately falls flat on their face instead... I'm sure I'm thinking of many a Family Guy or Robot Chicken episode here.
Agreed, that was awesome. And I don't think he could have done it in 3.5 either...
These acrobatics are the kind of thing I would expect to be able to do at say... level 14 or 15, with 2 or 3 feats to increase my acrobatics score. Not at level 2.
This thread has given me some food for thought. I like the idea of individual acrobatics and climb checks, so you know where in the sequence the fail happens. But I don't like how this almost guarantees a fail the longer the sequence. Bad rolls will happen. Also, Parkour is more than just physical moves: it's also vision. Parkour requires training to be able to visualize the possibilities. Being an expert acrobat and climber isn't good enough.
I think the way I would run it is as a feat: gain +2 to each individual acrobatics and climb check when used together as part of a single movement sequence, and ignore difficult terrain. Improved Parkour gets you +4 to those checks and no attacks of opportunity.
Not sure how to bake in perception before the move, though.
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I think the way I would run it is as a feat: gain +2 to each individual acrobatics and climb check when used together as part of a single movement sequence, and ignore difficult terrain. Improved Parkour gets you +4 to those checks and no attacks of opportunity.
Not sure how to bake in perception before the move, though.
Why not a feat?
Parkour:
You can move efficiently and jump safely.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Acrobatics or Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
Benefit: As a swift action, you can efficiently plan your route, gaining a +2 to all acrobatics checks for one round. When you attempt to move at full speed through a threatened square, the acrobatics check DC is not increased by 10. You also ignore the first 10 feet of a fall, the next 10ft of the fall can be ignored with a DC 15 acrobatics check.
Normal: You can move at full speed by increasing the acrobatics DC of the check by 10 to prevent an attack of opportunity. You need to make a DC 15 Acrobatics skill to allow you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen.
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My change in bold. The DC would be something like 10 + 2 for every obstacle and +2 for every square of difficult terrain you intend on passing through.Parkour:
You can move efficiently and jump safely.Prerequisite: Dex 13, Acrobatics or Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
Benefit: As a swift action, you can make a Perception check (DC 10 + 2 per obstacle, square of difficult terrain, and threatened space) to efficiently plan your route, gaining a +2 to all acrobatics checks for one round. When you attempt to move at full speed through a threatened square, the acrobatics check DC is not increased by 10. You also ignore the first 10 feet of a fall, the next 10 feet of the fall can be ignored with a DC 15 acrobatics check.
Normal: You can move at full speed by increasing the acrobatics DC of the check by 10 to prevent an attack of opportunity. You need to make a DC 15 Acrobatics skill to allow you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen.
Excellent! Changed.
Excellent! Changed.My change in bold. The DC would be something like 10 + 2 for every obstacle and +2 for every square of difficult terrain you intend on passing through.Parkour:
You can move efficiently and jump safely.Prerequisite: Dex 13, Acrobatics or Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
Benefit: As a swift action, you can make a Perception check (DC 10 + 2 per obstacle, square of difficult terrain, and threatened space) to efficiently plan your route, gaining a +2 to all acrobatics checks for one round. When you attempt to move at full speed through a threatened square, the acrobatics check DC is not increased by 10. You also ignore the first 10 feet of a fall, the next 10 feet of the fall can be ignored with a DC 15 acrobatics check.
Normal: You can move at full speed by increasing the acrobatics DC of the check by 10 to prevent an attack of opportunity. You need to make a DC 15 Acrobatics skill to allow you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen.
I was talking it over with my group, and the question came up about attacks of opportunity and what effect being hit would have on the sequence of Parkour moves. I'm thinking a concentration check of some sort* to be able to continue, unless it's a critical hit, in which case the move ends on the threatened square.
* Don't have access to the rules from behind the firewall here, or I'd delve deeper into this and come up with a DC.
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I was talking it over with my group, and the question came up about attacks of opportunity and what effect being hit would have on the sequence of Parkour moves. I'm thinking a concentration check of some sort* to be able to continue, unless it's a critical hit, in which case the move ends on the threatened square.
* Don't have access to the rules from behind the firewall here, or I'd delve deeper into this and come up with a DC.
I guess you mean if you are attacked in the middle of the movement. Why not have the character make a acrobatics check DC equal to the surface width DC + damage + all the acrobatics modifiers for the space you are in when attacked. Pass the check and proceed. Fail the check and fall prone.
I guess you mean if you are attacked in the middle of the movement. Why not have the character make a acrobatics check DC equal to the surface width DC + damage + all the acrobatics modifiers for the space you are in when attacked. Pass the check and proceed. Fail the check and fall prone.I was talking it over with my group, and the question came up about attacks of opportunity and what effect being hit would have on the sequence of Parkour moves. I'm thinking a concentration check of some sort* to be able to continue, unless it's a critical hit, in which case the move ends on the threatened square.
* Don't have access to the rules from behind the firewall here, or I'd delve deeper into this and come up with a DC.
That works. I had been thinking concentration check (WIS) vs. the amount of damage taken.
Does the armor check penalty to the acrobatics check suffice to prevent ridiculous situations such as free running in full plate? It would be mathematically possible to do this, which seems wrong. Also, I suppose there should be a penalty to trying Parkour with a weapon in your hand.
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Does the armor check penalty to the acrobatics check suffice to prevent ridiculous situations such as free running in full plate? It would be mathematically possible to do this, which seems wrong. Also, I suppose there should be a penalty to trying Parkour with a weapon in your hand.
Armor movement reductions and armor check penalties would factor in of course. I would only penalize for weapons in hand. I wouldn't put a penalty for a light/one hand weapons, dart, sling or shuriken, and bolas. -4 for a two hand and other ranged weapons. As a note, I allow players with a quaterstaff, polearm, or spear a +2 for long jumps if used to assist.