I always thought there were supposed to be one way for evil clerics to do damage, keeping in line with their theme, but they seem pretty bad at it.
E.G. Inflict light wounds only does 1d8+5 at level 5, whereas many other spells follow different scaling rules(e.g. wizard's magic missle does 3d4+3 at level 5, and affects undead to boot).
Seems only useful for BBEGs to heal undead.
The inflict spells can be interesting and are a way to spontaneously cause damage. Being a touch attack they can let a bbeg hit the high AC fighter for solid damage or at least better than a weapon. I usually use inflict spells when the BBEGs clerical minions cannot hit the party reliably. I don't mind burning their actions.
Most of the time a BBEG will have better uses for his actions. Once they get harm though the fighters run away. The first time I dropped harm on my group they pratically dropped a brick in their collective pants. Granted it was 3.0 harm but still mostly the same.
Inflict is really just a way to let the bad cleric memorize utility or buff spells and then switch them to damage spontaneously if needed. As far as scaling goes, inflict is just not a great way to do damage, but it is an option that pays off in some situations.
karkon wrote: The inflict spells can be interesting and are a way to spontaneously cause damage. Being a touch attack they can let a bbeg hit the high AC fighter for solid damage or at least better than a weapon. I usually use inflict spells when the BBEGs clerical minions cannot hit the party reliably. I don't mind burning their actions.
Most of the time a BBEG will have better uses for his actions. Once they get harm though the fighters run away. The first time I dropped harm on my group they pratically dropped a brick in their collective pants. Granted it was 3.0 harm but still mostly the same.
Inflict is really just a way to let the bad cleric memorize utility or buff spells and then switch them to damage spontaneously if needed. As far as scaling goes, inflict is just not a great way to do damage, but it is an option that pays off in some situations.
So inflcit is basically useless unless you an spontaneously convert it?
Question wrote:
So inflcit is basically useless unless you an spontaneously convert it?
It's also the spell used for healing undead minions.
The inflicts have always wore the hat of NPCism.
Now and then a Player makes good use of them in a very specialized necromancer/priest build but mainly its for the evils to cure their undead minions and hurt the PC with easy to hit touchies.
The inflict spells really only have one purpose and that is to heal undead. Being touch attacks and also allowing a saving throw for half damage makes them pretty much the worst choice for a cleric trying to inflict damage. A cleric is better off using a 4th level slot on divine power and going melee than doing an inflict critical wounds. They only have situational usefulness.
1) An evil cleric with no other useful spell prepare might want to spontaneous cast an inflict. But generally only if the target has a higher AC than he could hit effectively with a standard melee attack.
2) Target has very high AC but low touch AC and the cleric didnt bother preparing a useful spell in the slot he is using to spontaneously cast the Inflict spell.
Before 3.X The "Inflict Wounds" then called "Cause Wounds" spells allowed no saving throw for half damage. They were a nice way for a cleric to put the smack-down of their god on someone. I do not understand why they changed them to allow "save for half". Their damage when compared to other clerical spell of equal level is not impressive even if the target fails its save. As touch attacks they should not allow saves. I think that one change would bring them back into use for both evil clerics and good clerics looking to put the godly smite on targets.
Even the Mass Inflict spells should allow a save. Really a 5th level spell that inflicts 1d8+10 points of damge (save for half)at 10th level? That is a joke as a 5th level spell. Flamestrike? 10d6(15d6 max).
People have stated they have thei usefulness for healing undead and can be used to inflict damage as a secondary effect. If that is the case then should they be called "Empower Undead Light", "Empower Undead Moderate", Etc... Cause they really suck at "Inflicting Wounds" which by their name I would assume was their primary function.
karkon wrote: Inflict is really just a way to let the bad cleric memorize utility or buff spells and then switch them to damage spontaneously if needed. As far as scaling goes, inflict is just not a great way to do damage, but it is an option that pays off in some situations.
It's actually an option that pays off only if all other better options are unavailible.
Question wrote: I always thought there were supposed to be one way for evil clerics to do damage, keeping in line with their theme, but they seem pretty bad at it.
You could elect to adopt a house rule that we had back in 1E and that's let the inflict line be delivered via weapons (kinda like the magus ability).
They would need more than a touch attack at that point, but would be additional damage rather than a low flat rate that a more martial cleric with a weapon could reasonably deliver.
-James
I checked the math on this.
Magic Missile... 3d4+3. That works to 3*2.5(average rolls on a D4)+ 3 or 10.5 points of damage. We will round down to 10. 6 and 15 for low and high.
Shocking Grasp(a closer representation as it is a touch spell) also works up to also 17.5 points of damage or 17. The low would be 5 points and the high would be 30.
Chill Touch...3.5 pts of damage or 3 per touch(5 touches possible all taking an action. 17.5 possible points or 17(plus 5 points of strength possible). Low and high would 5 and 30 again.
Burning Hands... 12.5 pts of damage or 12. 5 and 20 for low and high.
Then the inflict does 9.5 or 9 pts (4.5 being the average of the D8 plus 5). 6 and 13 for low and high.
Yup... under powered in relation to attack spells that a sorc/wiz gets. Chill touch is the bang for the buck on the list. I think the trade is that by 5th level the Cleric can sponaneously do the Inflict Serious which has an average of 18.5 dmg.
Pound for pound there are better ways for BBEG to inflict damgage I would say.
My 2 cents.
Divine spells do not cause as much damage as arcane spells by design to create balance between the classes.
That being said, the spell should not have a save. Other than that, inflict spells make fine cleric options.
I think the save on inflict spells was largely meant as a break on the power of Harm which in 3.0 was crazy powerful (no save). 3.5 toned down Harm significantly (save, HP limits) in order to make it less of an awesome touch attack.
As such Conjuration (Healing) was changed from a no save effect to a save effect.
Basically the primary advantage to the inflict series is being able to deliver a touch attack to foes with an AC high enough that you'd only rarely hit. In those cases the low Damage result from an inflict spell is going to be higher than your DPR with a melee or ranged attack.
The problem of course is that direct damage spells really don't scale particularly well and cleric spells with their lower damage cap scale even less well than wizard spells. The result is that most PCs will focus on the more reliable SoL spells rather than memorizing a limited applicability inflict spell.
Gothulhu wrote: Divine spells do not cause as much damage as arcane spells by design to create balance between the classes.
That being said, the spell should not have a save. Other than that, inflict spells make fine cleric options.
I agree, remove the save for half and the Inflict spells are fine.
Becket wrote: I checked the math on this.
Magic Missile... 3d4+3. That works to 3*2.5(average rolls on a D4)+ 3 or 10.5 points of damage. We will round down to 10. 6 and 15 for low and high.
Shocking Grasp(a closer representation as it is a touch spell) also works up to also 17.5 points of damage or 17. The low would be 5 points and the high would be 30.
Chill Touch...3.5 pts of damage or 3 per touch(5 touches possible all taking an action. 17.5 possible points or 17(plus 5 points of strength possible). Low and high would 5 and 30 again.
Burning Hands... 12.5 pts of damage or 12. 5 and 20 for low and high.
Then the inflict does 9.5 or 9 pts (4.5 being the average of the D8 plus 5). 6 and 13 for low and high.
Yup... under powered in relation to attack spells that a sorc/wiz gets. Chill touch is the bang for the buck on the list. I think the trade is that by 5th level the Cleric can sponaneously do the Inflict Serious which has an average of 18.5 dmg.
Pound for pound there are better ways for BBEG to inflict damgage I would say.
My 2 cents.
Except that you can only do 1d6 damage by chilltouch in the first round, and subsequent rounds are limited by your BAB(likely to be 1).
Im just dissapointed that its in the witch spell list mainly for flavour when you can get much better damage alternatives.
Oliver McShade wrote: The main advantage to the Reach Spell (metamagic) feat as listed in the APG page 168, is that for +1 spell level, you can turn a Touch spell, into a Close ( 25 + 5 feet per 2 level) spell, or for +2 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Medium ( 100 feet + 10 feet per level), or for +3 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Long (400 feet + 40 feet per level).
Spell for a cleric this helps on:
Bestow Curse = (3rd level Touch), (4th level Close), (5th level medium), (6th level Long).
Contagion = (3rd level touch), (4th level close), (5th level medium), (6th level long).
Slay Living = (5th level touch), (6th level close), (7th level medium), (8th level long).
Harm = (6th level touch), (7th level close), (8th level medium), (9th level long).
All Cure and Inflict spells can be done the same as well.
Reach feat really is a Clerics best Friend.
..........
Note: Harm does 10 points per level (150 max at 15th level). So Harm is still an amazing spell at doing 75 hp damage at 15th level even if the target makes its saving throw.
Oliver McShade wrote: Oliver McShade wrote: The main advantage to the Reach Spell (metamagic) feat as listed in the APG page 168, is that for +1 spell level, you can turn a Touch spell, into a Close ( 25 + 5 feet per 2 level) spell, or for +2 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Medium ( 100 feet + 10 feet per level), or for +3 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Long (400 feet + 40 feet per level).
Spell for a cleric this helps on:
Bestow Curse = (3rd level Touch), (4th level Close), (5th level medium), (6th level Long).
Contagion = (3rd level touch), (4th level close), (5th level medium), (6th level long).
Slay Living = (5th level touch), (6th level close), (7th level medium), (8th level long).
Harm = (6th level touch), (7th level close), (8th level medium), (9th level long).
All Cure and Inflict spells can be done the same as well.
Reach feat really is a Clerics best Friend.
..........
Note: Harm does 10 points per level (150 max at 15th level). So Harm is still an amazing spell at doing 75 hp damage at 15th level even if the target makes its saving throw.
Harm is not part of the inflict line of spells. Similar yes but not and Inflict spell. Its damage level well deserves allowing a save for half damage.
Even when applying Reach Spell to the Inflict spells their damage is pathetic compared to spells of the Adjusted level. Not to mention they still require a randed touch attack and allow a saving throw for half.
Inflict light wounds with reach spell +1 level would be 1d8+5 damage using a second level spells slot, RTA save for half.
Compare a 10th level Inflict Monderate wounds Reach (3rd level slot) to a 10th level Searing Light. Both require a ranged touch attack to hit.
Searing lighe 5d8 (5-40 damage)
Inflict Moderate 2d8+10 (12-26 damge, save for half)
The only time its useful is if the cleric can spontaneously cast it and has no other useful spells prepared.
The inflict spells should be a viable option also for good clerics looking to put the godly smack down on some evil doers. But they are not.
when we went through second darkness I used the inflic spells with spectral hand. for the most part they seemed to work fine I was p,sting a support character and mixed healing touch with inflict spells and there were no problems. while not the norm was even pivotal in a fightbwith a crock as I crit him for over 40 damage then did 20 the following round. maybe monsters wernt making their saves, nit sure but it seemed to work.
To be fair to Inflict, as a melee touch spell you can hold the charge on it - meaning that missing an attack allows you to continue attacking with it. Add to this the fact that clerics are better in melee than many arcane classes, so it is safer for them to get in close with touch spells. And, if you DO miss, you can full attack the next round with your weapon and the spell.
Oliver McShade wrote: Oliver McShade wrote: The main advantage to the Reach Spell (metamagic) feat as listed in the APG page 168, is that for +1 spell level, you can turn a Touch spell, into a Close ( 25 + 5 feet per 2 level) spell, or for +2 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Medium ( 100 feet + 10 feet per level), or for +3 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Long (400 feet + 40 feet per level).
Spell for a cleric this helps on:
Bestow Curse = (3rd level Touch), (4th level Close), (5th level medium), (6th level Long).
Contagion = (3rd level touch), (4th level close), (5th level medium), (6th level long).
Slay Living = (5th level touch), (6th level close), (7th level medium), (8th level long).
Harm = (6th level touch), (7th level close), (8th level medium), (9th level long).
All Cure and Inflict spells can be done the same as well.
Reach feat really is a Clerics best Friend.
..........
Note: Harm does 10 points per level (150 max at 15th level). So Harm is still an amazing spell at doing 75 hp damage at 15th level even if the target makes its saving throw.
So... less than a third their HP, or about 1.5 decent hits?
CoDzilla wrote: Oliver McShade wrote: Oliver McShade wrote: The main advantage to the Reach Spell (metamagic) feat as listed in the APG page 168, is that for +1 spell level, you can turn a Touch spell, into a Close ( 25 + 5 feet per 2 level) spell, or for +2 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Medium ( 100 feet + 10 feet per level), or for +3 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Long (400 feet + 40 feet per level).
Spell for a cleric this helps on:
Bestow Curse = (3rd level Touch), (4th level Close), (5th level medium), (6th level Long).
Contagion = (3rd level touch), (4th level close), (5th level medium), (6th level long).
Slay Living = (5th level touch), (6th level close), (7th level medium), (8th level long).
Harm = (6th level touch), (7th level close), (8th level medium), (9th level long).
All Cure and Inflict spells can be done the same as well.
Reach feat really is a Clerics best Friend.
..........
Note: Harm does 10 points per level (150 max at 15th level). So Harm is still an amazing spell at doing 75 hp damage at 15th level even if the target makes its saving throw.
So... less than a third their HP, or about 1.5 decent hits? That assumes that you are taking on 1 CR 15 enemy at Level 15, but if you are dealing with multiple enemies of lower CR, like four CR 11 creatures, 75hp is more than 1/3 of their hp.
Derek Vande Brake wrote: To be fair to Inflict, as a melee touch spell you can hold the charge on it - meaning that missing an attack allows you to continue attacking with it. Add to this the fact that clerics are better in melee than many arcane classes, so it is safer for them to get in close with touch spells. And, if you DO miss, you can full attack the next round with your weapon and the spell. Witches get inflict too, which seems there purely for flavor.
The inflict spells are there to give us something to discuss on the internet.
Also, to heal the undead.
There's not a lot of other point in memorizing them, and even if you can spontaneously cast them, they're only 'worth it' if you really have absolutely nothing better to do. Even then, you sometimes might be better off saving the original spell for later, and just sitting a round out, or aid anothering an ally, or moving to flank, etcetera.
Derek Vande Brake wrote: CoDzilla wrote: Oliver McShade wrote: Oliver McShade wrote: The main advantage to the Reach Spell (metamagic) feat as listed in the APG page 168, is that for +1 spell level, you can turn a Touch spell, into a Close ( 25 + 5 feet per 2 level) spell, or for +2 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Medium ( 100 feet + 10 feet per level), or for +3 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Long (400 feet + 40 feet per level).
Spell for a cleric this helps on:
Bestow Curse = (3rd level Touch), (4th level Close), (5th level medium), (6th level Long).
Contagion = (3rd level touch), (4th level close), (5th level medium), (6th level long).
Slay Living = (5th level touch), (6th level close), (7th level medium), (8th level long).
Harm = (6th level touch), (7th level close), (8th level medium), (9th level long).
All Cure and Inflict spells can be done the same as well.
Reach feat really is a Clerics best Friend.
..........
Note: Harm does 10 points per level (150 max at 15th level). So Harm is still an amazing spell at doing 75 hp damage at 15th level even if the target makes its saving throw.
So... less than a third their HP, or about 1.5 decent hits? That assumes that you are taking on 1 CR 15 enemy at Level 15, but if you are dealing with multiple enemies of lower CR, like four CR 11 creatures, 75hp is more than 1/3 of their hp. No, if you are taking on multiple lower level enemies you have more HP to chop through, not less. So you take off half of 1... or one eighth the total of the encounter. That is called worse, not better.
Derek Vande Brake wrote: CoDzilla wrote: Oliver McShade wrote: Oliver McShade wrote: The main advantage to the Reach Spell (metamagic) feat as listed in the APG page 168, is that for +1 spell level, you can turn a Touch spell, into a Close ( 25 + 5 feet per 2 level) spell, or for +2 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Medium ( 100 feet + 10 feet per level), or for +3 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Long (400 feet + 40 feet per level).
Spell for a cleric this helps on:
Bestow Curse = (3rd level Touch), (4th level Close), (5th level medium), (6th level Long).
Contagion = (3rd level touch), (4th level close), (5th level medium), (6th level long).
Slay Living = (5th level touch), (6th level close), (7th level medium), (8th level long).
Harm = (6th level touch), (7th level close), (8th level medium), (9th level long).
All Cure and Inflict spells can be done the same as well.
Reach feat really is a Clerics best Friend.
..........
Note: Harm does 10 points per level (150 max at 15th level). So Harm is still an amazing spell at doing 75 hp damage at 15th level even if the target makes its saving throw.
So... less than a third their HP, or about 1.5 decent hits? That assumes that you are taking on 1 CR 15 enemy at Level 15, but if you are dealing with multiple enemies of lower CR, like four CR 11 creatures, 75hp is more than 1/3 of their hp. 75 hp assuming the make there saving throw... otherwise 150 hp damage.
True, some of the fighter can dish that out per hit at 16th level.
But for a Cleric, 75 or 150 hp damage in one attack is not bad damage. Considering a Cleric options.
Derek Vande Brake wrote: CoDzilla wrote: Oliver McShade wrote: Oliver McShade wrote: The main advantage to the Reach Spell (metamagic) feat as listed in the APG page 168, is that for +1 spell level, you can turn a Touch spell, into a Close ( 25 + 5 feet per 2 level) spell, or for +2 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Medium ( 100 feet + 10 feet per level), or for +3 spell level, you can turn a Touch, into a Long (400 feet + 40 feet per level).
Spell for a cleric this helps on:
Bestow Curse = (3rd level Touch), (4th level Close), (5th level medium), (6th level Long).
Contagion = (3rd level touch), (4th level close), (5th level medium), (6th level long).
Slay Living = (5th level touch), (6th level close), (7th level medium), (8th level long).
Harm = (6th level touch), (7th level close), (8th level medium), (9th level long).
All Cure and Inflict spells can be done the same as well.
Reach feat really is a Clerics best Friend.
..........
Note: Harm does 10 points per level (150 max at 15th level). So Harm is still an amazing spell at doing 75 hp damage at 15th level even if the target makes its saving throw.
So... less than a third their HP, or about 1.5 decent hits? That assumes that you are taking on 1 CR 15 enemy at Level 15, but if you are dealing with multiple enemies of lower CR, like four CR 11 creatures, 75hp is more than 1/3 of their hp. If your dealing with multiple lower CR creatures are you really going to waste a spell on Harm?
Regardless, Harm is not an "inflict" and I think most of us will agree that harm is an OK spell and is not in the same boat as the Inflict spells power-wise.
Harm is better than the Inflicts. It's still not good.
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