Dear wonderful people at Paizo Publishing,
Please consider (if you haven't already) making a downloadable PC/Monster Stat Block Generator program for us. It doesn't even need to be free.
Thank you for your time.
Dear wonderful people at Paizo Publishing,
Please consider (if you haven't already) making a downloadable PC/Monster Stat Block Generator program for us. It doesn't even need to be free.
Thank you for your time.
Check out Hero Lab!
No thanks. I'm willing to spend as much as $49.98 on a program but when I have to pay that for the program and then at least that much for EACH AND EVERY manual and book that I want to include in the program then no thanks. On top of that when I tried the free version I could not find a stat block generator. I could only seem to create character sheets and that's NOT WHAT I'm looking for.
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No thanks. I'm willing to spend as much as $49.98 on a program but when I have to pay that for the program and then at least that much for EACH AND EVERY manual and book that I want to include in the program then no thanks. On top of that when I tried the free version I could not find a stat block generator. I could only seem to create character sheets and that's NOT WHAT I'm looking for.
As for stat block you simply go in the top left hand corner and click file/Output active hero statblock and choose the output format you want and you get something that looks like.
Male Gnome Witch 1
CN Small Humanoid (Gnome)
Init +3; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +2
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DEFENSE
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AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 11 (+3 Dex, +1 size)
hp 7 (1d6+1)
Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +1
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Special Attacks Evil Eye (DC 14)
Spell-Like Abilities Dancing Lights (1/day), Flare (1/day), Prestidigitation (1/day), Produce Flame (1/day)
Witch Spells Known (CL 1, 0 melee touch, 4 ranged touch):
1 (2/day) Mage Armor, Cure Light Wounds (DC 15)
0 (at will) Touch of Fatigue (DC 14), Guidance, Resistance
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STATISTICS
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Str 8, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 12
Base Atk +0; CMB -2; CMD 11
Feats Extra Hex
Traits Collector: Craft: Alchemy, Hedge Magician
Skills Craft: Alchemy +10, Fly +5, Knowledge: Arcana +8, Knowledge: Nature +8, Perception +2, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +7, Survival +0, Use Magic Device +5
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan
SQ +3 to Acrobatics checks, Cackle, Empathic Link with Familiar (Su), Eternal Hope (1/day), Share Spells with Familiar
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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+3 to Acrobatics checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Cackle Extend the duration of other hexes.
Collector: Craft: Alchemy If have collection within 5 ft gain +2 trait bon to selected skill.
Dancing Lights (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Dancing Lights once per day.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Eternal Hope (1/day) +2 save vs. fear and despair. 1/day, reroll a 1 rolled on 1d20.
Evil Eye -2 (7 round(s)) (DC 14) (Su) Inflict penalties with a glance.
Flare (Pyromaniac) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Flare once per day.
Hedge Magician Magic item gp costs -5%.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Prestidigitation (Pyromaniac) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Prestidigitation once per day.
Produce Flame (Pyromaniac) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Produce Flame once per day.
Share Spells with Familiar The wizard may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
Created With Hero Lab® - try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com!
And trust me, from someone who has all of the Pathfinder materials for Herolab. The prices are no where near as exaggerated as you seem to believe.
Your initial Hero Lab license purchase is $29.99. This includes access to the core data package for one game system of your choice, which you select when you first install Hero Lab and activate your license.
Core Packages
The Advanced Player's Guide contains the new classes, alternate racial traits, archetypes, feats, spells, and more from the Advanced Player's Guide. ($9.99)
Pathfinder Bestiary 1 includes over 275 new races from the Pathfinder Bestiary, ready to be incorporated into your games. Perfect for GMs, this package includes all the races from the Bestiary, allowing you to quickly create customized monster NPCs. ($14.99)
Player Companion Packages
The Player Companion Bundle combines the "Adventurer's Armory", "Player Companion Races #1", "Player Companion Races #2", "Player Companion Regions #1", and "Player Companion Regions #2" packages into one bundle for a discounted cost. Get 5 for the price of 4! ($19.99)
Adventurer's Armory incorporates all of the material from the Adventurer's Armory supplement for Pathfinder. ($4.99)
Player Companion Races #1 incorporates all of the material from the first three Player Companion supplements focused on races: Elves of Golarion, Dwarves of
Golarion, and Gnomes of Golarion. ($4.99)
Player Companion Races #2 provides the content from the following three Player Companion supplements focused on races: Orcs of Golarion, Halflings of Golarion, and Humans of Golarion. ($4.99)
NOTE: This package currently only includes content from the Orcs of Golarion book. When the Halflings and Humans books are released, they will be added as a free update.
Player Companion Regions #1 includes all material from the first three Player Companion books focused on regions: Osirion, Land of the Pharaohs; Taldor, Echoes of Glory; and Qadira, Gateway to the East. ($4.99)
Player Companion Regions #2 spans the content from the second three Player Companion books focused on regions: Cheliax, Empire of Devils; Andoran, Spirit of Liberty; and Sargava, the Lost Colony. ($4.99)
Golarion #1 contains material from the Inner Sea Primer, and will include at least 1-2 other books in the future (to be determined as they're released, and added as free updates to anyone who already owns the package). ($4.99)
Campaign Setting Packages
The Campaign Setting Bundle combines the "Campaign Setting #1-5" packages into one bundle for a discounted cost. Get 5 for the price of 4! ($19.99)
Campaign Setting #1 includes Classic Monsters Revisited, Guide to Darkmoon Vale, Into the Darklands, and Dark Markets: A Guide to Katapesh. ($4.99)
NOTE: Material from Gods & Magic and some monsters from Into the Darklands will be added as a free update in early 2011.
Campaign Setting #2 contains Dungeon Denizens Revisited, and Seekers of Secrets: A Guide to the Pathfinder Society. ($4.99)
NOTE: Material from Dragons Revisited and The Great Beyond will be added as a free update in early 2011.
Campaign Setting #3 holds content from Book of the Damned Volume 1: Princes of Darkness, Cities of Golarion, Classic Horrors Revisited, Guide to the River Kingdoms, and Classic Treasures Revisted. ($4.99)
Campaign Setting #4 includes material from the Faction Guide, Heart of the Jungle, City of Strangers, and Misfit Monsters Redeemed. ($4.99)
Campaign Setting #5 will include material from Book of the Damned Volume 2: Lords of Chaos, Lost Cities of Golarion, and at least 1-2 other books (after release). ($4.99)
NOTE: This package is not available yet - as soon as we release it, anyone who previously purchased the Campaign Setting Bundle will be given it as a free update.
Pathfinder Bestiary 2 adds over 300 new races, abilities and templates from the Pathfinder Bestiary 2, fully integrated with Hero Lab. ($9.99)
Campaign Setting #5 will include material from Book of the Damned Volume 2: Lords of Chaos, Lost Cities of Golarion, and at least 1-2 other books. ($4.99)
More supplements will be announced as details become available.
There is also PCGen
Not as flash an interface and its slower for the datasets to come out but its free.
Yes HeroLab is not cheap. I think the problem stems from the idea that, since I already own the rights to do what I wish with this knowledge (purchased the core rulebook) I should have the electronic means to do the same. Part and parcel. This is not so.
Furthermore I think the misconception that all electrons should be free and charging a fee for them, however eleborately organized, is in some way unseemly. My feeling, however ill founded, is this: since it costs them absolutely nothing to send the right electrons my way, it should in essence be free. People feel this way, horrible people with no morals, and will do what they can to TAKE that which they feel should be free, by unsavory means. So since it is only electrons, and people take them, but required untold man-hours of toil in the hot sun to produce and those that produced it must recoup if not profit by its distribution, the price point is increased thricefold or more. And thereby ironically encouraging more people to steal their electrons. It is a vicious cycle.
In short: HeroLab is a really awesome program, but I would never pay what they ask for it. Since I'm a (relatively) honest feller that means I don't have the full program. If the pricepoint were more like 10 for the base program and 2-3 for addons I could almost guarantee every gamer friend I play with (10+) would buy a copy. As it stands no one has.
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In short: HeroLab is a really awesome program, but I would never pay what they ask for it. Since I'm a (relatively) honest feller that means I don't have the full program. If the pricepoint were more like 10 for the base program and 2-3 for addons I could almost guarantee every gamer friend I play with (10+) would buy a copy. As it stands no one has.
Although I found the remainder of this post (the part I didn't quote) meandering and somewhat confusing, I agree wholeheartedly with this last paragraph.
Everything Bigkilla mentioned totals $165, at least by my quick total. That's a lot of money - baby needs new shoes. I'm not saying that there's not a significant amount of work going into HeroLab on the development side, but... $165 for everything seems rather severe. If it were more on the order of $100 for everything, I'd go for it full bore.
Oh well, that's capitalism for you - I don't agree with the value of the product as proposed by the manufacturer of the product. As with all other times that happens, the end result is that I have no product, and they have none of my money nor my recommendation. :-(
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Add another vote for "would be interested in herolabs if it was cheaper." I'm all for paying people for their work but when I think about what it takes me to type in the stats manually and what it would take to pay the amount they are asking for the shortcut, I pull out the rulebooks and go the manual route.
In short: HeroLab is a really awesome program, but I would never pay what they ask for it. Since I'm a (relatively) honest feller that means I don't have the full program. If the pricepoint were more like 10 for the base program and 2-3 for addons I could almost guarantee every gamer friend I play with (10+) would buy a copy. As it stands no one has.
My sentiments exactly.
RPGs in general are an expensive enough hobby.For those can afford to support their work though, more power to ya.
Add another vote for "would be interested in herolabs if it was cheaper." I'm all for paying people for their work but when I think about what it takes me to type in the stats manually and what it would take to pay the amount they are asking for the shortcut, I pull out the rulebooks and go the manual route.
As some one who created datasets for Code Monkey for E-tools, I will say that I know how much time it actually takes to get a book working as completely as you can with in an application. And thus have no problem paying for the add on content.
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Nobody is arguing that they don't want to spend money, or that the product should be free, though. The arguement is that the cost is too much. The time is spent (essentially) once; once you code the stuff then it's coded. Assuming a decent release, you might invest 1/8th of the time you spent putting out a release in fixing the release, and even then, once it's fixed, it's fixed. Money keeps rolling in, though.
My interest in all of this is really to help the people who make Herolab make more money. I'm saying (and others have agreed) - make it more cost-effective, and I'll buy it, and recommend it to others. If they sell a $100 package including everything to me and the two friends at my table who would almost certainly buy it if I recommended it, they've made $300. If they don't sell it to me or my two friends, they've made $0. The economics there are pretty obvious, really.
But, you know, it's their product, and they're welcome to do with it as they please. I can only provide my perspective on their pricing structure in an effort to give them additional market research. That's all.
I'd like to add that I've previewed the product (my roomate owns a license, I've seen him use it) and it's amazing. No matter how nice it is, I can't justify such a limited use program for that price. We're talking with all up to date PF stuff, the price is comparable to what Microsoft charges for Office. I would pay that for Office, as it can be used for various things, not just gaming. I can, however, use Office to generate character sheets, stat blocks, etc. Hell, learning how to use Office well is even a job skill that can aid in finding a job or aid you in your current job.
This may sound overly frugal, but this is where I'm coming from. Value for the dollars spent, not that it should be free.
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... $165 for everything seems rather severe. If it were more on the order of $100 for everything, I'd go for it full bore.
I think you're mistaken about the cost of the data packages currently available. Bigkilla's included all the Pathfinder available for purchase right now, but some of those products are roll-ups of multiple products. For example, the Player Companion Bundle ($19.99) includes Adventurer's Armory, Player Companion Races 1 & 2, and Player Companion Regions 1 & 2 (each of which is $4.99). Buying the package saves you a few dollars, but more important to the price you quoted, you don't buy them twice.
Thus the total cost of everything available for sale right now (as of this morning) is: $29.99 (Hero Lab) + $9.99 (APG) + $14.99 (Bestiary 1) + $9.99 (Bestiary 2) + $19.99 (Player Companion Bundle) + $19.99 (Campaign Setting Bundle) = $104.94. As things currently stand, that's pretty close to the $100 you said you are willing to spend.
-Skeld
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And thus have no problem paying for the add on content.
I have no problem paying for add on content. I just can't afford to pay as much as they are asking. The value to cost ratio is too low for my budget. If they were about half of what they were now I would likely go for it.
I would also suggest that if they are going to use the model of add-on content as supplements are released, they should greatly reduce the initial buy-in. As it is, the program is pricey as a standalone (for a single use product) but far too expensive as a base product which I am expected to expand upon.
Having said that, I recognize its a niche product and they have to cover their expenses. I just suspect changing their price structure will lead to an increase in sales. I would suggest they try a half price sale for a month and see if it works to boost sale volume.
I found this website quite a while ago, and if I remember correctly there is a link in another thread on these forums somewhere, but this seemed like an appropriate place to put it: Monster Advancer
Just click the quickened monster advancer and make sure to select the Pathfinder version. It creates monsters lickety-split.
And thus have no problem paying for the add on content.I have no problem paying for add on content. I just can't afford to pay as much as they are asking. The value to cost ratio is too low for my budget. If they were about half of what they were now I would likely go for it.
I would also suggest that if they are going to use the model of add-on content as supplements are released, they should greatly reduce the initial buy-in. As it is, the program is pricey as a standalone (for a single use product) but far too expensive as a base product which I am expected to expand upon.
Having said that, I recognize its a niche product and they have to cover their expenses. I just suspect changing their price structure will lead to an increase in sales. I would suggest they try a half price sale for a month and see if it works to boost sale volume.
The problem is that Hero Labs needs to charge enough to cover their initial investment, preferably rather quickly. And since it is licensed I assume Paizo gets a cut off of every dataset as well (cuz Paizo is a well run company. ;)) For me it is a real simple equation, how much time would I have to put in, to enter in all of the Player's Companions data available, and is that worth $25.
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I've considered buying it as well, however it does seem too expensive for me as well. The kicker is when I look at the fact that the expansions cost nearly as much, and in some cases more, than the PDFs of the books that they cover. Personally I don't know if lowering the price would increase demand enough to keep revenue even or increase revenue. But I do know that at it's current price point I couldn't consider buying it either.
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Yes HeroLab is not cheap. I think the problem stems from the idea that, since I already own the rights to do what I wish with this knowledge (purchased the core rulebook) I should have the electronic means to do the same. Part and parcel. This is not so.
100% false. Hero Lab comes with an editor with an excellent set of documentation. Almost everything you own (or create independantly) can be manually entered into the program at no cost to you but time. If you buy a print copy of the Adventurer's Armory, you can manually enter all of the items if you wish. In fact, some message boards have done this for several books and freely share the code to allow you to do so yourself.
Frankly, $5 is worth less to me than the hours it would take to do that. And further, the ability to add templates and class levels to monsters saves me a ton of time, and to me is worth every penny.
Finally, the prices also include 2 licenses up front, and a 3rd for $10. You can get a couple of buddies to split the cost and everyone comes out a winner.
Everything Bigkilla mentioned totals $165, at least by my quick total. That's a lot of money - baby needs new shoes. I'm not saying that there's not a significant amount of work going into HeroLab on the development side, but... $165 for everything seems rather severe. If it were more on the order of $100 for everything, I'd go for it full bore.
As Skeld pointed out above, the actual cost is just a tad over $100.
Since the question of cost versus benefit has been raised by multiple posters, let's stop and assess what's actually included in the "every addon" list above. For that $105, you get the core rules, the APG, both Bestiary books, all the AP player content, and OVER FORTY additional Pathfinder books. Once you break it all down, it actually ends up averaging around $2 per book for the entire Pathfinder RPG library. That's definitely NOT more than the cost of all the books, even in PDF format.
Depending on how often you play and how extensively you use Hero Lab, the benefits of Hero Lab can be significant. You can quickly save many hours of number crunching and wading through books. You can also eliminate a large number of errors that tend to occur when doing things by hand. How many of you have tried to build an Eidelon by hand?
Even if you only value your time at minimum wage, all Hero Lab needs to save you is 13 hours over all the years you play the game and you've made your investment back. If you make $20/hour (that's a $40K/year salary), Hero Lab has paid for itself after roughly 5 hours of saved time. And that ignores the added value that you can do other activities with all the time you've saved. :-)
Those numbers also assume that you've purchased everything available (for $105). A large number of gaming groups only play with a few "core" books. For those players, the cost of using Hero Lab is significantly reduced and the product pays for itself after just a few short hours of use.
Everyone needs to make their own cost/benefit assessment regarding Hero Lab, and there will be some who find the benefits don't justify the cost. For those who elect not to use Hero Lab, pencil and paper work just as well today as they did when I first started playing RPGs 30+ years ago. :-) Hero Lab simply represents a convenience that saves time and eliminates errors, and the actual dollar value of that convenience will be different for everyone.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Does Hero Lab contain the ability to manually enter homebrew or amended houseruled content?
It does.
Realistically, I would consider the cost to be something more akin to $40 for a player ($30 for the program with the Pathfinder core rules, and $10 for the APG content). Someone who was planning to use the program as a DM would want to buy the Bestiary package(s) as well ($15 for Bestiary 1, and $10 for Bestiary 2). That's a total of about $65. Not exactly cheap, but well within the realm of what I think is reasonable for a product like this.
If you decide you really want to take a particular feat or trait or piece of equipment from some supplement (or something that's houseruled or homebrew), you can add it yourself. That process is not as easy as just writing it on a paper character sheet, but it's not exactly brain surgery, either.
Remember that you are paying for a company to hire full-time developers to create this program and keep it updated with all the new content that Paizo is putting out. That takes a lot of effort. To me, the price seems perfectly reasonable, especially given the size of the target market. You don't balk at paying $7 for a PDF of a Player Companion; why should paying $5 for a dataset for that content be any worse?
Does Hero Lab contain the ability to manually enter homebrew or amended houseruled content?
Absolutely. All of the add-on content is constructed using the same tools that are included with the product. So you could purchase the base product and add everything from every supplement yourself if you wanted to. The included tools make it possible to add whatever custom content you want for your game. You can also change core material if you wish (e.g. the damage of longsword), replacing the core content with your own version to reflect house-rules.
Its hard for me to comment as having read through this thread I thought I'd check it out first only to find it's not multi platform. Considering they have licenses for Pathfinder, 4E and World of Darkness the fact that they haven't taken the time to create OS X and open source versions is a bit weak. As for price having checked the current exchange rate it seemed fairly reasonable until I noticed I'd have to pay for the base program multiple times (once for each game system). At the end of the day if this was there before any of us started our massive collection of books it wouldn't seem so expensive as we'd be paying over a period of time in small chunks. Also I'm guessing it only has the crunch and dosn't actually contain electronic copies of the books? If so it loses value.
The MAC version is under development.
And how the hell would they provide electronic copies of the books for less then the cost of the book?
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And how the hell would they provide electronic copies of the books for less then the cost of the book?Because printing and shipping cost more than keeping a server up and running.
Are you suggesting that they (Lonewolf) should provide you the ability to download the PF Bestiary if you buy the PF Bestiary data set?
...the fact that they haven't taken the time to create OS X and open source versions is a bit weak.
Justin Franklin answered the OS X question, but I don't understand what you mean by "open source." Are you asking why a company that develops and sells a software tool for profit doesn't also provide a version of the tool as a free/open source download? If so, they do provide a trial version as a free download that is level- and output-limited.
-Skeld
I read it as a *nix version of the code, not open source code for Herolab.
-- david
Papa.DRB
...the fact that they haven't taken the time to create OS X and open source versions is a bit weak.Justin Franklin answered the OS X question, but I don't understand what you mean by "open source." Are you asking why a company that develops and sells a software tool for profit doesn't also provide a version of the tool as a free/open source download? If so, they do provide a trial version as a free download that is level- and output-limited.
-Skeld
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The only Data Add-on I think they over charged on is the First Bestiary, all others I think are a reasonable price.
Same here. I remember seeing a comment from one of the Hero Lab folks saying something to the effect that the Bestiary 1 price was high and they intend to do $9.99 data sets for the RPG line going forward because that price matches Paizo's PDF prices on those books.
I'll see if i can find that comment.
-Skeld
EDIT: I haven't been able to find the comments I mentioned above, so take what I've said in this post with a grain of salt. Actually, take the while slat lick, just in case.
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No I'm suggesting that cost breakdowns in earlier posts where they compared the cost of buying the complete set of pathfinder material available for hero lab when compared to the price of the books is misleading as the books contain a lot of material that you won't get from the data add-ons. This is far more evident with books like the inner sea primer than the bestiary. Although I may be wrong about this as my copy is currently in the post from Amazon I imagine most of what is in the hero lab package is OGL content (namely traits and archetypes). So to get back to the OP, they are willing to pay up to $50 for the core program from Paizo. With that done if they have a subscription from Paizo they get the update to the program just like the free PDF. For those without subscription I saw a link someone posted on this forum to a system where you get a free PDF in your FLGS when you buy books. I'm sorry I can't remember the name but hopefully someone here will point it out. I'm not saying Paizo should cut out lone wolf as obviously they will need somebody to set this up but I believe this was at the heart of the OP and this thread got bogged down in some misunderstandings.
Right, the data files only contain the game mechanics. They don't contain any fluff because the fluff is inconsequential to the function of the character generator (which is to adjudicate character creation and up-keep rules automatically). As Rob pointed out, using the core software, you can enter all the mechanics yourself, but it takes time. Since an hour of my time is vastly more valuable than $5 (or $10, $15, or $20 for that matter), I find the data files to be very reasonably priced. Also, since Hero Lab is the officially licensed tool, they can include things like proper names and other Paizo IP that other tools can't include without breaking copyright.
Paizo has (as far as I can tell) basically nothing to do with how HL data sets are distributed or what they charge for them, so I guess I don't really understand what your getting at with the last half of your paragraph beyond it being some hypothetical system Paizo could put in place if they sold an in-house generator. As of right now, it simply isn't an option and it would be very uncool of Paizo to set up HL as the official tool then kick it to the curb and release their own tool. Afterall, they know what it feels like to have a license jerked out from under you and I doubt they'd do that without some serious justification.
I mean people using popular open source operating systems should be able to use the program. If an OS X version is in the works it shouldn't be too hard to move on from there as it shares the same source code with other operating systems.
Yes. Papa-DRB cleared that up for me. I understand now your talking about open source OS, not an open source character generator.
-Skeld
Chief Technical Officer
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Paizo has (as far as I can tell) basically nothing to do with how HL data sets are distributed or what they charge for them...
Correct. We assume that Lone Wolf can make better business decisions about their products than we can.
...it would be very uncool of Paizo to set up HL as the official tool then kick it to the curb and release their own tool.
To be clear, Lone Wolf is *an* officially licensed tool—their license is non-exclusive.
Yes HeroLab is not cheap. I think the problem stems from the idea that, since I already own the rights to do what I wish with this knowledge (purchased the core rulebook) I should have the electronic means to do the same. Part and parcel. This is not so.100% false. Hero Lab comes with an editor with an excellent set of documentation. Almost everything you own (or create independantly) can be manually entered into the program at no cost to you but time. If you buy a print copy of the Adventurer's Armory, you can manually enter all of the items if you wish. In fact, some message boards have done this for several books and freely share the code to allow you to do so yourself.
Frankly, $5 is worth less to me than the hours it would take to do that. And further, the ability to add templates and class levels to monsters saves me a ton of time, and to me is worth every penny.
Finally, the prices also include 2 licenses up front, and a 3rd for $10. You can get a couple of buddies to split the cost and everyone comes out a winner.
Basically?
WHAT HE SAID.
All the griping about how expensive the add-ons are is easily rectified by you paying the initial cost ($30) and then entering everything else YOURSELF.
I know as a DM it's a priceless tool that's well worth the money that I pay for it AND the add-ons.
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In short: HeroLab is a really awesome program, but I would never pay what they ask for it. Since I'm a (relatively) honest feller that means I don't have the full program. If the pricepoint were more like 10 for the base program and 2-3 for addons I could almost guarantee every gamer friend I play with (10+) would buy a copy. As it stands no one has.Although I found the remainder of this post (the part I didn't quote) meandering and somewhat confusing, I agree wholeheartedly with this last paragraph.
Everything Bigkilla mentioned totals $165, at least by my quick total. That's a lot of money - baby needs new shoes. I'm not saying that there's not a significant amount of work going into HeroLab on the development side, but... $165 for everything seems rather severe. If it were more on the order of $100 for everything, I'd go for it full bore.
Oh well, that's capitalism for you - I don't agree with the value of the product as proposed by the manufacturer of the product. As with all other times that happens, the end result is that I have no product, and they have none of my money nor my recommendation. :-(
Actually you are incorrect. The 4.99 costs do not count if you take the packages. You add in the 4.99 costs AND the package cost. so essentially adding them in twice. So the total cost comes to 94.95.
But as mentioned before, you do NOT HAVE TO buy anything but the original core system which is 29.99. The res you can add in yourself.
Also the core system for Pathfinder INCLUDES, the Game Mastery guide, ALL the Pathfinder RPG Adventure Path information too as WELL as the Core rule book.
So basically all you HAVE to buy if you buy it.. is the Core System.. and then the rest would take time to add it in if you did not want to pay for it. That is COMPLETELY up to you though. Hero Labs actually does provide the means to do so should you choose to do it!! :)
Purchasing the books on top of Hero Lab and all the datasets as well is just too much for my pocket book. On top of that, the license only lasts so long. Hopefully Paizo Publishing will consider making it's own stat block generator program.
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Purchasing the books on top of Hero Lab and all the datasets as well is just too much for my pocket book. On top of that, the license only lasts so long. Hopefully Paizo Publishing will consider making it's own stat block generator program.
Even they made their own, the price would be similar. I am not sure why you think it would be cheaper.
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Purchasing the books on top of Hero Lab and all the datasets as well is just too much for my pocket book. On top of that, the license only lasts so long. Hopefully Paizo Publishing will consider making it's own stat block generator program.
When considering Hero labs I am seeing a TON of mistakes being made and assumptions being made too about what Hero Labs can or can't do and also what and or how much it costs.
I can see where it might cost you to much on top of the books and such but as has been mentioned in this thread alone many times as well as almost every thread I have seen that mentions Hero Labs, is that You CAN buy the Initial system with Pathfinder as the core rules system. Then you can add the rest yourself, you do NOT have to buy anything further. The license is permanent.
If you DM a game this software is INVALUABLE!!! It has an initiative tracker, Dice roller (if you like electronic dice), Battle (Tactical) Console that brings in to the battle any creature that is engaged in the current fight. You can If you have the bestiary either as an Add on or something YOU added yourself) bring in any monster, even as a Random encounter and you do not need to enter anything unless you want to give them character levels on the fly.. which is easy to do in and of itself.
As a Player it is invaluable too. It allows you to create a mistake free character in about 5 minutes total. Including the Eidelon (Which again CAN be added on your own and you do NOT have to buy the APG add on for this).
Before you add to rumors and the like in the future. Go to Lone Wolfs web site and check the software out. It is free to try as long as you want. the only things you can't do is print a character sheet or stat block out or save a character. They do not tell you that you HAVE to buy the add on's as they are something that they bring to the software as a bonus if you should choose to buy them. But they also GIVE you the tools that THEY use to add them yourself should you choose to do so as well. I do not know of many companies that do that at all.
Not to mention there are tons of user/community add-ons too that are free that you can download on your own.
So one might want to actually check things out before really truly making assumptions again :)
Good luck.
I can see where it might cost you to much on top of the books and such but as has been mentioned in this thread alone many times as well as almost every thread I have seen that mentions Hero Labs, is that You CAN buy the Initial system with Pathfinder as the core rules system. Then you can add the rest yourself, you do NOT have to buy anything further.This is I think, essentially what is at the heart of this thread. Many people consider SOME of the data packs to be, using the computing terms, patches rather than expansions and should be released in order to keep the program you paid for functioning as the game changes.
This is where I think we may need to agree to disagree to me fixing or adding information from the Core book would be a patch. Anything beyond that is added content and thus an expansion. The one thing that does amaze me is what seems to be a lack of understanding that Hero Labs is a business and needs to make money to continue. Which means that if they are going to offer new datasets that dataset needs to make enough money to pay for itself and generate income almost immediately (since the programmer has already been paid and that money is out of your pocket).
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Some mistakes have been made but that's the point of forums. They offer the chance to discuss things and get some clarification.
Well thanks for letting me know this. I was not aware of that. But I will say this just because they are forums does not give a free pass to disseminate rumors just because you can.
I can see where it might cost you to much on top of the books and such but as has been mentioned in this thread alone many times as well as almost every thread I have seen that mentions Hero Labs, is that You CAN buy the Initial system with Pathfinder as the core rules system. Then you can add the rest yourself, you do NOT have to buy anything further.
This is I think, essentially what is at the heart of this thread. Many people consider SOME of the data packs to be, using the computing terms, patches rather than expansions and should be released in order to keep the program you paid for functioning as the game changes.
Did you see where I mentioned you do not HAVE to buy them... you can add them yourself. This will take time just like it takes The developers time to add them and test them too. Why you seem to think this should be done for free once you buy the software I am unsure. This is NOT a game but a tool for us to use for gaming. While you might not like the software because for you it is not what you want, that is fine. For my game and my group it is amazing to see used and to use on a regular basis.
This is of course perceived value. If you are prepared to pay that price then that's fine but those that don't shouldn't be made to feel bad when attempting to get a better deal for themselves.
Why feel bad for something that the developers worked hard for? They have to support families and themselves too. This is a product that they put out. But on the same token once again. If YOU want to take the time to enter the data from those books yourself instead of buying them. Then feeling bad is on you, not the developers. If you want to pay for the core system, that is all you have to pay for this awesome software. The rest can be done completely by yourself. If you feel bad for doing that, then so be it.
But they also GIVE you the tools that THEY use to add them yourself should you choose to do so as well. I do not know of many companies that do that at all.
There is a long history of this in computer games going back to the likes of Doom. I'd say the best modern example would be The Sims. Paizo offers it in the form of their free conversion guide PDF.
This is not a game though as your analogy implies, so nicely. This is a tool and something most developers would not supply because they want to keep it proprietary. The developers choose not to do this though so that we as players of Pathfinder and or other core system, can add our own unique rules or even data from books so that we do not HAVE to pay for the add-ons. They give us the tools for that particular reason. So another words they are taking money out of their mouths to provides with the means to be able to do what they have done for us for fairly cheap for a lot of crunch.
I am sorry you do not agree with me, but this is mostly because you are mistaken on what can or can't be done or should be done with software that you both did not develop nor have control over. You also base this on other software and because of that seem to think that the developers of Hero Labs should do what other companies have done.
Providing the tools to input the books that they charge for, if we do not want to buy them, to me is MORE then fair. They even explain in detail on how to add the data as well as our own house rules should we choose to do so.
This is not complicated. I am not going to change your mind. All I am trying to do is to clear up misconceptions and rumors that are spread about this great product.
Beleive it or not I once felt this way too. I am all for trying to be as cheap as I can and not spend the money I have. But in using this product and seeing what it can do and knowing what is coming out in the future. I will buy every single piece of data and or add-on that comes out for this because of what it can do.
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What the OP was asking right at the start was could this be done better and cheaper by Paizo becoming more involved and the answer is yes.
Yes?... Why would it be yes? If Paizo did it themselves, they would still charge for the program and the data they add to it, it would not be free. Why do you think it would be cheaper? I don't see how the pricing would be any different if Paizo did they work, they would still expect to be paid for the work they did.
What the OP was asking right at the start was could this be done better and cheaper by Paizo becoming more involved and the answer is yes.Yes?... Why would it be yes? If Paizo did it themselves, they would still charge for the program and the data they add to it, it would not be free. Why do you think it would be cheaper? I don't see how the pricing would be any different if Paizo did they work, they would still expect to be paid for the work they did.
Not to mention they would have to hire people to write and maintain the code and data. That would be a constant expense so I don't see a Paizo Character Generator costing any or that much less then Hero Labs.