|
If a bag of holding is turned inside out, all of its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again.
So step one BBEG fails reflex save for create trap, falls 30 ft. taking 3d6 dmg.
Step two I turn my bag of holding inside out which drops 250 (daggers weighs 1 pound, and bag of holding can hold 250 pounds) 30 feet into the create trap.How much damage does the BBEG take?
There is really no rule for it. I would allows a reflex save for X amount of damage. Many of the daggers will fall beside him, and on top of each other.
X is up to your DM. I am assuming you mean the create pit spell which has sloped sided. Many of them will just slide down the side instead of free fall unless you were flying.
|
Per RAW? 250d6, as determined by table 13-11 on page 443. It comes with at Reflex save of DC 15. It comes with an addendum that mentions it is up to DM discretion depending on the weight of the object so be careful of that.
Personally I would alter it to deal closer to 10d6 but there is your answer.
|
|
Your weight and gold would be better spend on buying up 250 flasks (or flasks worth) of acid and filling your bag of holding with that. Sure it will be 5x as expensive but I don't know a DM would douche his player out of 2500 gp and a creative use of game mechanics. Anything short of a CR 10 would surely die unless it had acid immunity or acid resistance 20+.
250 daggers do 3d6 dmg?
that dosn't seem right.
Your not attacking with a dagger your dropping a dagger like object on someones head, you use size to determine damage not actual attack damage. daggers can make a melee and thrown attack for 1d4 damage, your doing neither of those
+1 to the acid flasks, just awesome
|
|
That or 125 bags worth of caltrops, each round they spend in the caltrops each set of caltrops gets a roll to attack (At an AC minus any armor, shield, or deflection bonuses) that will be dealing 1 piercing damage to them for each bag. There are 4 squares worth of space in the bottom of a pit meaning they will be receiving an average of 31 attacks on them a round and have their speed is halved meaning they will also have a harder time climbing out.
250 daggers do 3d6 dmg?
that dosn't seem right.
It is for balance reasons, the same way that lava caps at 20d6. I am sure nothing can really survive immersion in lava. It also helps prevent TPK's if a DM does something like this. I thought the 1d6 per item had been removed, but it would still depend on every dagger hitting him which is nigh impossible.
|
|
PERSONALLY I would fill the bag with 50 bags of caltrops, 100 flasks of acid, 10 tanglefoot bags, and 10 thunderstones for 3d6 falling object damage, 100d6 acid damage, annoyance damage to the feet(At least 5 a round regardless of where the stand), the inability to move for several rounds, and 10 saves to be deafened. All of these have an individual reflex save of 15.
dagers are re useable tho....
Yes, but do you REALLY think a DM is going to let you get away with this trick more than once for only paying the one time pittance of a sum that is 3000g, less if you crafted the bag yourself?
The answer is no, I would recommend finding a way of making it expensive enough to warrant allowing you to use it more than once.
dagers are re useable tho....
I am not getting the point here. Could you elaborate?
|
250 daggers do 3d6 dmg?
that dosn't seem right.
Why doesn't that seem right? Seems right to me. It's just a heap of daggers. Could be a heap of scrap wood. Or a heap of lead. Or even a heap of cotton. It's a cheap way to get a little more damage out of a trap, but it's not an instakill for Very Powerful Creatures.
Now dumping 250 pounds of acid? THAT could be an instakill. Just a very expensive one.
|
|
I am trying to come up with 'oh frake the party screwed up now! only wizard is left alive...'
Things to do since that happened last time i played.
Which is why i wanted to know the rules of daggers in a bag of holding before I do it.
I am trying to come up with 2-3 all star ideas that I only do once... to awww the enemies.
|
|
Silent Image is your friend, my man. Silent Image, Ghost Sound, and Ventriloquism.
Very much so, and if you have a few higher level spell slots Minor and even Major Image can do HUGE things, such as provide flanking bonuses, lure enemies into traps, and even fool them into believing you disappeared altogether.
|
|
Wouldnt the fact the daggers are shart and pointy help with the dmg?
I would as I said allow it to deal 10d6, 1/3rd each bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing, but beyond that you are asking a bit too much.
If you are looking for a reusable option carefully consider my caltrop suggestion, it works out to be the same price.
|
|
Wouldnt the fact the daggers are shart and pointy help with the dmg?
I don't see why it should. You're not attacking with them. You're just dumping them on somebody's head. They could be a pile of branches, fertilizer, or copper coins, and it wouldn't matter. What's more important is that your foe will be under a pile of daggers and has to dig his way out before suffocating to death.
Now that I think about it, coins might work better.
But if you're only going to use this option once (like you said you probably would), see if any alchemist will give you a discount on 250 pounds of acid. That is 10d6 damage PER ROUND of immersion.
Wouldnt the fact the daggers are shart and pointy help with the dmg?I don't see why it should. You're not attacking with them. You're just dumping them on somebody's head. They could be a pile of branches, fertilizer, or copper coins, and it wouldn't matter. What's more important is that your foe will be under a pile of daggers and has to dig his way out before suffocating to death.
Now that I think about it, coins might work better.
But if you're only going to use this option once (like you said you probably would), see if any alchemist will give you a discount on 250 pounds of acid. That is 10d6 damage PER ROUND of immersion.
The acid may eat through bag though unless he has them all vialed/bottled up, and then not every vial may break.
250 daggers don't constitute a 250 pound object. They are 250 individual one pound objects. In a 10' x 10' x 30' deep pit, most would miss the victim completely. The victim could easily use a shield, backpack, or other object to deflect the rest. Most would be separate impacts occurring in rapid succession, and therefore would be much different from all of them hitting at the same time.
Aside from the damage caused from falling into the pit, I would consider the damage from the dagger barrage to be quite minimal.
The daggers would slide down the side of the pit then, as in my previous example since the sides of the pit are angled, IIRC. He might be buried up to his knees in daggers making it hard for him to move, but not much else.
Our group has always played under the assumption that pointy objects and bags of holding do not mix. I could see maybe 1 or 2 daggers getting by without piercing the bag, but 250? That's considerable force on a considerable number of points, far more than I'd allow for one to hold. For the most part, I think placing pointy objects in a bag of holding is just asking for a ruined magic item, the acid is a nice idea, but again you have 250 lbs of material pressing down on a few vials that would undoubtedly break at some point. And I realize this leads us into all kinds of other questions about the interior of a bag of holding that I don't have answers for. While this is a very creative use for an item, I think its intended by its design to not be a 'turn it over on someone and get free boatloads of damage' type item.
yes the 5 ft surounding the pit is angeld, and u only have to make the reflex save at the endof your turn if your still at it.
Step 1: walk up to edge.
Step 2: open bag emty it.
Step 3: Use your Shift (Su)power to telport away to safety.
So the edge means nothing.
I am not comprehending how you it does not matter. If you are to the edge of the pit and you drop the dagger straight down they will hit the slope and slide down. The only way to avoid the slope is to fly over the victim's head(past the slope, and fly it is not worth the amount of trouble to pay for a fly potion at 4th level for one trick that won't kill the enemy anyway since even in the best case scenario you most likely don't get anymore than 10d6. If he is a BBEG he is probably level 7, and will just fly back out of the pit before the beginning of your next turn. If he fell off a hundred foot cliff it would only be 10d6.
PS:What shift power are you talking about that works as a free action teleport at 4th level?
Would they take the half movement effect from the falling dmg, or does it have to be from the moving dmg?
What is "they" in reference too?
|
|
Teleportation School
Associated School: Conjuration.Replacement Power: The following school power replaces the acid dart power of the conjuration school.
Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
I read it as only the top is sloped, like the 5 feet surrindering it.
Then its striaght down.
Teleportation School
Associated School: Conjuration.Replacement Power: The following school power replaces the acid dart power of the conjuration school.
Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
I read it as only the top is sloped, like the 5 feet surrindering it.
Then its striaght down.
I see what you mean with the slope now, but you still have to remember the edge from the ground to where the spell begins is where the slope begins. To drop anything directly on the victim you have to stand where the slope meets the vertical wall which would most likely mean a difficult climb check to get there.
Standby for attempted artist rendition.
|
|
Teleportation School
Associated School: Conjuration.Replacement Power: The following school power replaces the acid dart power of the conjuration school.
Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
I read it as only the top is sloped, like the 5 feet surrindering it.
Then its striaght down.
Bad people that i need to kill, since they are trying to kill me, and I am Chaotic good, and wouldnt hurt anyone unless they where trying to kill me...
Which is why i choice God wizard, I dont do any dmg directly....I enlarge the Big stupid fighter and he kills them for me.
I already made it so Linky
Your is better but he still has to get to that 5 foot slope with the 25 climb DC.
APG=The pit’s coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25.
edit:fixed broken link, and the pic should read where you have to be to drop daggers on victim's head.
I'd be careful putting loose daggers or caltrops into my bag of holding:
... if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever.
|
Our group has always played under the assumption that pointy objects and bags of holding do not mix. I could see maybe 1 or 2 daggers getting by without piercing the bag, but 250? That's considerable force on a considerable number of points, far more than I'd allow for one to hold. For the most part, I think placing pointy objects in a bag of holding is just asking for a ruined magic item, the acid is a nice idea, but again you have 250 lbs of material pressing down on a few vials that would undoubtedly break at some point. And I realize this leads us into all kinds of other questions about the interior of a bag of holding that I don't have answers for. While this is a very creative use for an item, I think its intended by its design to not be a 'turn it over on someone and get free boatloads of damage' type item.
This. As per the Bag of Holding entry (PF Core book, p.500):
If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and
all contents are lost forever.
So you couldn't have it full of daggers. In fact, I'd be extremely leery of even having one unsheathed dagger.
It says its a reflex at end of turn or fall down...
Where does it say in teh spell about a climb check?
What I quoted was straight out of the book.
APG=Creatures who fall into the pit take falling damage as normal.
The pit’s coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25. When the
duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with
the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over
the course of a single round.
Now the 25 could be to climb up the vertical walls but I am sure that slope has a climb check also.
I'm not really sure I'd allow the acid flask to do great amounts of damage to the target(s).
To me it doesn't seem much different than acid pit, where medium creatures is fully submerged in acid when they fall in.
Those 250 flasks of acid does not really produce much acid compared to that. Trying to calculate it using the best figures for the acid, the amount is 250 lb acid (disregarding the flasks) and saying that acid weights the same as water (62.4 lb pr. ft^3: eventhough it is properly higher). The flasks thus produce enough acid for 4 square feet. Compared to the 500 square feet worth of acid in the acid pit, I fail to see why the effect should be so much greater using flasks.
|
|
I'm not really sure I'd allow the acid flask to do great amounts of damage to the target(s).
To me it doesn't seem much different than acid pit, where medium creatures is fully submerged in acid when they fall in.Those 250 flasks of acid does not really produce much acid compared to that. Trying to calculate it using the best figures for the acid, the amount is 250 lb acid (disregarding the flasks) and saying that acid weights the same as water (62.4 lb pr. ft^3: even though it is properly higher). The flasks thus produce enough acid for 4 square feet. Compared to the 500 square feet worth of acid in the acid pit, I fail to see why the effect should be so much greater using flasks.
Mechanically, because it costs the player more in both resources and gold pieces.
Fluff wise, because it is a more creative and flavorful way of trying to accomplish a similar task than simply "letting the spell do it."
|
|
I'm not really sure I'd allow the acid flask to do great amounts of damage to the target(s).
To me it doesn't seem much different than acid pit, where medium creatures is fully submerged in acid when they fall in.Those 250 flasks of acid does not really produce much acid compared to that. Trying to calculate it using the best figures for the acid, the amount is 250 lb acid (disregarding the flasks) and saying that acid weights the same as water (62.4 lb pr. ft^3: eventhough it is properly higher). The flasks thus produce enough acid for 4 square feet. Compared to the 500 square feet worth of acid in the acid pit, I fail to see why the effect should be so much greater using flasks.
Does anyone else think the slops should have a climb check?
I don't think it does since the spell dosnt say...
I'm not really sure I'd allow the acid flask to do great amounts of damage to the target(s).
To me it doesn't seem much different than acid pit, where medium creatures is fully submerged in acid when they fall in.Those 250 flasks of acid does not really produce much acid compared to that. Trying to calculate it using the best figures for the acid, the amount is 250 lb acid (disregarding the flasks) and saying that acid weights the same as water (62.4 lb pr. ft^3: eventhough it is properly higher). The flasks thus produce enough acid for 4 square feet. Compared to the 500 square feet worth of acid in the acid pit, I fail to see why the effect should be so much greater using flasks.
Does anyone else think the slops should have a climb check?
I don't think it does since the spell dosnt say...
I will admit The slopes don't have a given angle. I guess it was my imagination inserting that much in there, but you still have the issue of daggers poking through the bag.
You also have the issue of the BBEG staying inside the pit after he fails the reflex save. I am sure the spell in question will have been used before the BBEG, and the DM should have a fly potion ready to take care of the issue meaning he flies out before the dagger dump happens, assuming they don't puncture the bag before hand, and he even fails the reflex save in the first place.
Mechanically, because it costs the player more in both resources and gold pieces.Fluff wise, because it is a more creative and flavorful way of trying to accomplish a similar task than simply "letting the spell do it."
Mechanically, because it costs the player more in both resources and gold pieces.Fluff wise, because it is a more creative and flavorful way of trying to accomplish a similar task than simply "letting the spell do it."
I don't really regard it as really creative or flavorful, as it is planned a long time in advance, and the characters lump around on a whole backpack only for doing so.
And while you are carrying around a 2500 gp worth single attack in a different way than others, it is pretty much just a spell in a different package.I do not think this package should have insane consequences. Instant kill (CR<11) as was suggested seem really out of the line. But how much damage should it be allowed to do then?
Looking at other one use attacks there a significant differences. Javelin of the Lightning (1500) is 5d6 and has both an attack roll and a save for half. Necklace of fireballs is in the higher end. For 2500 gp you should have a 16d6 worth of damage (although NoF is capped a 10), and a save for half.
How much is then reasonable for the acid flask, if they don't require an attack roll or grant a save.
This isn't about creative use of existing materials in an unusual situation. This is about deliberatly planning the most effective way to max out damage when the situation arrives.
Lastly if the price of the flask should determine their usefulness, it makes little sense to say that the daggers shouldn't be a viable solution instead (apart from liking acid more than daggers).
This. As per the Bag of Holding entry (PF Core book, p.500):So you couldn't have it full of daggers. In fact, I'd be extremely leery of even having one unsheathed dagger.If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and
all contents are lost forever.
Hmm, given that a Handy Haversack is based on a Bag of Holding, I wonder if the same would apply?
Yet another reason to fear the "sundering" BigBad.