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I have a human rogue 3 that I am playing in Pathfinder Society, and am having a difficult time deciding which direction I should take him.
He has Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11, Chr 10. His feats are improved unarmed strike, dodge, two-weapon fighting, and weapon finesse. His faction is Taldor and he has the expert duelist and reactionary traits. I was considering going rogue 4/bard/4 and taking duelist and eventually taking some levels of Lion Blade. I know his Charisma is low for a bard, but if I raise it at 4th and 8th levels he could still cast 2nd spells, and I would avoid spells with saving throws. Is this a decent idea, or should I just stick to rogue, or go fighter/rogue/duelist?
I wouldn't suggest the Bard dip personally. Not that it is a bad choice, but the character just doesn't seem to be set up well to capitalize on the bard abilities. You may want to save that idea for your next character and make a Sandman bard (bard heavily seasoned with rogue)
With your stat array, I would suggest the Fighter Dip and then take a look at Dervish Dance feat to use a scimitar (lets you treat scimitar as a peircing weapon for Duelist and using dex instead of str for scimitar damage)...second time I have suggested that feat today...weird.
If you wanted to take caster...I believe the current Magus playtest is allowable, and that would synergize nicely with your build ... at least better than I believe the bard to synergize with your current build. So you may want to look at that.
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It sounds like you think rogues can contribute meaningfully to party dps. They don't, they are skill-bots. By level 5, you will do about 30 damage less per round.
Rogues are the worst class in pathfinder, especially for dps (they need about 5 higher levels to have comparable dps) and you will gimp your groups by taking levels in it. I'd reroll, but failing that, multiclass into a useful class for sure (like a bard).
It sounds like you think rogues can contribute meaningfully to party dps. They don't, they are skill-bots. By level 5, you will do about 30 damage less per round.
Rogues are the worst class in pathfinder, especially for dps (they need about 5 higher levels to have comparable dps) and you will gimp your groups by taking levels in it. I'd reroll, but failing that, multiclass into a useful class for sure (like a bard).
What? I don't know when this agenda against rogues popped up on these boards but it doesn't make a lot of sense.
The rogue can contribute meaningfully to he party's DPR if it gets support from the rest of the party, probably moreso than most other classes. It's very dependant on getting bonuses to hit and getting into flanking positions, but if it gets those it will rack up some serious damage. A +1 to hit benefits rogue a lot more than say, a fighter. Outside of combat they've got a lot of skills and special abilities to work with. They're a very versatile class.
To answer the OP, I'd personally stick with the rogue to get access to higher sneak attack damage and better talents. What rogue talents have you picked up so far?
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The rogue can contribute meaningfully to he party's DPR if it gets support from the rest of the party, probably moreso than most other classes.
Given that in another thread I posted a level 1 Barbarian who did more dpr than a posted level 5 rogue, you'll have to post a build to prove it. I also have a level 5 build that does over twice the DPR of a 100% (which is totally unrealistic) sneak attacking 5th level rogue.
The rogue can contribute meaningfully to he party's DPR if it gets support from the rest of the party, probably moreso than most other classes.Given that in another thread I posted a level 1 Barbarian who did more dpr than a posted level 5 rogue, you'll have to post a build to prove it. I also have a level 5 build that does over twice the DPR of a 100% (which is totally unrealistic) sneak attacking 5th level rogue.
Why don't you post this level 1 barbarian (within spoilers so we don't clutter up the thread) and I'll compare it to the OP's rogue?
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Why don't you post this level 1 barbarian (within spoilers so we don't clutter up the thread) and I'll compare it to the OP's rogue?
Str 20 (other stats don't matter for these purposes)
Equipment: Masterwork GreatAxe
Feats: Weapon Focus - GreatAxe, Power Attack
In-play effects: Raging, Power Attack
Melee - To Hit: +9
Melee - Damage: 1d12+13
Note: Barbarians who focus on strength sacrifice a LOT less than rogues who must spread their stats all over the place
Now show me a normal well-balanced level 5 rogue. Also note that the Barbarian damage scales a lot better with buffs (such as Enlarge Person or Haste) and that Raging is usable ad-hoc and lasts long whereas sneak attack is often unavailable or risky especially when needed the most (BBEG) and is usable only once per fight.
For example, with Enlarge Person, a GreatAxe does way more than a rogue weapon:
Weapon damage -> Enlarged Damage = average dps gain
1d4 -> 1d6 = +1
1d6 -> 1d8 = +1
1d10 -> 2d8 = +3.5
1d12 -> 3d6 = +4 (GreatAxe)
Okay, so that Barbarian will be dealing around 19-20 damage on every hit with a +9 to attack, pretty impressive. Despite what you said, he's still sacrificing a lot to reach 20 STR at level 1. 17 points is a LOT, and doesn't leave much for the remaining attributes. But, if we're only shooting for pure damage I'll give it a shot.
Here's my take on a 3rd level human rogue:
STR 14
DEX 20
(other stats not important for the purposes of DPR)
Equipment: 2x Masterwork Short Swords
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse (human extra), Power Attack (rogue talent) Weapon Focus (Short Sword)
For a single attack with power attack
Melee - To hit: +8 (+10 when flanking)
Melee - Damage: 1d6+4 (+2d6 if sneak attacking) which gives it an average damage of 7,5 from a single attack or 14,5 when sneak attacking.
For two attacks with power attack
Melee - To hit +6 (+8 when flanking)
Melee - The same as above, but since you're using two weapons you'll come out at about 15 damage if both attacks hit, or 29 damage if sneak attacking.
The barbarian will probably be dealing a lot more damage on average when unassisted since his attack bonus is a lot higher, but if the rogue can get into a flanking position it's actually pretty close between the two, since the rogue's potential damage is higher than that of the barbarian. It will require a lot more thinking in play to use effectively, but the rogue is by no means a slouch, especially considering it'll have a lot more utility outside of combat.
And there's really no way it will be outdamaging a 5th level rogue with this amount of optimization for pure damage.
Conclusion: rogue dps is pathetic for a dps class compared to same leveled barbarian
This isn't an MMORPG, there's no such thing as a DPS class.
The rogue might not be able to match the DPR of that character lump (that barbarian will have no utility outside of combat), but its damage output is by no means pathetic. Add in a lot of skill points and utility abilities, and you've got yourself a pretty solid class.
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I don't know what you have against the rogue. They can do pretty could damage with some help from the rest of the party, and they have more out of combat utility than almost any other class. Skills are very useful in Pathfinder Society, especially to succeed at faction missions. I guess I will stick with rogue and eventually go into duelist.
Conclusion: rogue dps is pathetic for a dps class compared to same leveled barbarian
See here is your problem. Thinking that the only thing the rogue class is, is a DPS class. Rogue is DPS+Utility.
If I wanted to make a pure DPS rogue, I could just exactly duplicate the feats your Barbarian took and his Str and use a greataxe and add the Sneak attack when flanking as well.
If ALL I cared about was DPS I could do:
Level 3 Human Rogue(+2 to str) with 20-point build
Str 20 (other stats don't matter for these purposes)
Equipment: Masterwork GreatAxe
Feats: Weapon Focus - GreatAxe, Power Attack
In-play effects: Sneak Attack, Power Attack
Melee - To Hit: +9 (+11 Flanking)
Melee - Damage: 1d12+2d6+10
Or the same rogue could do this at level one:
Melee - To Hit: +7 (+9 Flanking)
Melee - Damage: 1d12+1d6+7
Which is very close to the barbarians damage while still bringing all the other rogue benefits as well. Plus as the rogue levels he will be able to swith to two weapon fighting easily at level 3 as shown previous examples and be able to dual wield for even more SA damage as levels permit.
Of course with the 20 Str neither the rogue or the barbarian are going to be standing long in a 20 point buy game since the rest of their stats are so poor that they will be killed when someone sneezes.
To the OP- I actually like the monk/rog route you are going. Maybe focus on Comb Exp/Imp Trip/Disarm? Drop TWF, you have IUS and don't need it, IMO. Be the scout/trap finder, climb walls, get some smoke sticks, go all Ninja-ey :)
re: DPR-
I'm not seeing that Barby's attack bonus adding up like that. I see him at BAB +1 +STR (+7)+ MW (+1) - PA (-2)= 7. No?
BAB - (+1)
Raging Str - (+7)Masterwork Weapon (+1)
Weapon Focus Feat(+1)
PA (-1)= 9
Power attack is only -1 at level 1.
I have a human rogue 3 that I am playing in Pathfinder Society, and am having a difficult time deciding which direction I should take him.
He has Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11, Chr 10. His feats are improved unarmed strike, dodge, two-weapon fighting, and weapon finesse. His faction is Taldor and he has the expert duelist and reactionary traits. I was considering going rogue 4/bard/4 and taking duelist and eventually taking some levels of Lion Blade. I know his Charisma is low for a bard, but if I raise it at 4th and 8th levels he could still cast 2nd spells, and I would avoid spells with saving throws. Is this a decent idea, or should I just stick to rogue, or go fighter/rogue/duelist?
Ignoring the treadjack :) i would suggest Urban Ranger as an alternative. Mostly due to at level 2 you could get power attack to add to your damage and at level 3 you now have trapfinding as a lvl 6 rogue anyway :) on top of this you don't lose too many skillpoints and of course get full BAB to bolster your combat
The ability to use ranger spells from wands isn't too bad either.
Power attack is only -1 at level 1.
Ah, forgot about that, thanks!! I so rarely play the bruiser :)
Why don't you post this level 1 barbarian (within spoilers so we don't clutter up the thread) and I'll compare it to the OP's rogue?** spoiler omitted **
Now show me a normal well-balanced level 5 rogue. Also note that the Barbarian damage scales a lot better with buffs (such as Enlarge Person or Haste) and that Raging is usable ad-hoc and lasts long whereas sneak attack is often unavailable or risky especially when needed the most (BBEG) and is usable only once per fight.
For example, with Enlarge Person, a GreatAxe does way more than a rogue weapon:
Weapon damage -> Enlarged Damage = average dps gain
1d4 -> 1d6 = +1
1d6 -> 1d8 = +1
1d10 -> 2d8 = +3.5
1d12 -> 3d6 = +4 (GreatAxe)
DPR(damage per round) requires an entire build. Chance to hit is a great factor in DPR. Post a level 1 to 10 barbarian and then we can talk.
Example:
Rogue did about 50 points of damage per round.
barbarian also did about 50.
Everyones Dps is out shined by the two handed fighter anyway. As for your rogue , since your already going to unarmed route , id just run with it and take utility feats. Imp trip and disarm ,snatch arrow , maybe even stunning fist for easier sneak attacks.
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The problem is there is this stupid concept that class x must be able to do the same damage per round as class y when optimized.
Surprise! D&D isn't a purely combat-based game! By attempting to place D&D into that box, you ignore everything else that a particular class can contribute so that you can point out who has the biggest sword. There will *always* be a class that deals the most damage in a particular situation in a class-based game.
The reality of the situation is that you don't have to make your character deal the same amount of damage as optimized class y.
All you have to do is deal damage within a range of the other PLAYERS at your table. As long as the players and the dm are happy, it really doesn't matter.
This isn't wow with max dps priority based rotations, or diablo where you do nothing but combat. While those are subset options if your group enjoys them, it's basically the same as trying to compare an athlete to an overweight technician at the bowling alley. Doesn't matter which one is fitter, faster, or knocks over more pins. All that matters is who is having more fun.
Keep that in mind when you're thinking about what to do with your character, and ignore anyone who tells you that x class sucks because it doesn't do y thing.
You've got a solid start with your character so far. I would suggest you consider what type of character you want to play. If you like the concept of the bard, go with it.
There are also a couple other interesting choices you have here. If you go rogue/fighter, you can get some bonuses to hit and armor mastery can help you get into some better armor without sacrificing that dex bonus of yours.
You can go rogue/wizard and prestige into arcane archer, though you'd be missing out on some bow feats right off the bat.
You can go rogue/assassin, if you're evil or can get your dm to waive that requirement. Poisons can be fun!
As mentioned earlier, a rogue/monk can be scary too, with sneak attack and flurry of blows. However, you've already invested in the twf feat which doesn't stack with flurry of blows, so I'd probably lean away from this one.
Another interesting option would be the rogue/ranger. You can use the ranger free feats to pick up the archery set and continue stacking up the twf tree with your extra feats. This makes you dangerous at range or in melee, so it adds some combat versatility to the skill versatility you have as a rogue. Your wisdom is low, but due to the delayed nature of ranger casting, you've got plenty of time to shore it up to minimum spell levels.
You've got a lot of interesting options available to you!
