Hey all.
So in the Pathfinder Eberron campaign I am in I play a Level 5 Beguiler and am having a ball with it.
Anywho, My GM has asked us to make and bring a backup character to be used in the event of our PCs death (This is after a near TPK with a Chuul)
This character is to be made the same level as our main PC and as the main levels up we will level up the back-up in case it is needed.
As I enjoy making characters, this sounds like a a lot of fun.
This is a PATHFINDER character NO 3.5
Anyway here is Korgath of the Wolf Tribe, Neutral Half-orc Alchemist.
The GM lets us either use 15pb OR 15,14,13,12,11,10 before racial mods.
I am planning Korgath as a Somewhat Feral witch doctor type alchemist. He is from a tribe of orcs that venerate the wolf spirit and are fairly barbaric.
Korgath's mother from a raid on a human settlement and his father is the tribe witch doctor.
Eventually the tribe is either attacked by, or learns of (not sure witch) a Werewolf. Korgath is curious of what appears to be a halfbreed of man and wolf and starts to experiment on himself with the blood of wolves. (See Feral Mutation below)
I am planning on flavoring the Bombs as Sculls filled with who knows what (Just basic bombs as far as crunch goes).
Korgath is a potion based melee fighter (see below)
here we go.
Str 18 (15 base, +1 level 4, +2 Racial)
Dex 12
Con 13 (will up to 14 at 8th)
Int 14
Wis 11
Cha 10
Feats
Brew Potion (Bonus)
Throw Anything (Bonus)
Toughness (1st) (He is Melee after all)
Power attack (3rd)
Extra discovery, Enhance Potion (5th)
Discoverys
Feral Mutagen (2nd)
Extend Potion (4th)
Enhance Potion (Feat)
For skills I will have 6 to max out, or max a few and drop 1 in all my class skills. Not sure really.
I plan to max out Craft Alch, and Know Nature or Arcane (what covers wearwolves?)
He will mostly fight with a Falchion but once a day can drink a mutagen and go feral (Claw, Claw, Bite)
Here are the questions.
1. What are 2 good potions to take advantage of Enhance/Extend (Remember they will not be used up due to 2nd level elixer)
2. Is it worth taking the extra bomb damage favored class for half-Orc with this build? Or is 1 more HP/lvl better?
3. What other skills are good to take?
4. What other Ideas do you have for me?
5. What traits would be good? I get 2.
Thanks again for reading, and please remember this is pathfinder NOT 3.5.
Also need some ideas for infusions. I do plan to take the one that lets you combine them. so my 3rd level infusions will more then likley be 2 1sts in one. (shield and enlarge for example)
Tentitive Char sheet Here
Wow, nothin?
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You could just, you know, play the character for while and find out how everything fits together. Then stick to options that work, picking the right feats isn't arcane knowledge and you have both a pretty firm build and a nice character concept in mind. Particularly love the skulls.
Conjencture is nice, but since we know nothing about the campaign and you don't yet know what your character will face, it just that, conjencture.
Be organic, take what feels nice and strengthens your character. There's very little trap options since you already have the most important melee feats in place. I'd probably fit some better armor later on in the character's life, since he is frontlining, but otherwise you're set.
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1. What are 2 good potions to take advantage of Enhance/Extend (Remember they will not be used up due to 2nd level elixer)
Heroism, Protection from Evil, greater magic fang (use an amulet of mighty fists to pick up frosty or shocker).
2. Is it worth taking the extra bomb damage favored class for half-Orc with this build? Or is 1 more HP/lvl better?
For a bomber? Probably better taking the HP, depends on how much ranged combat you are going to do.
3. What other skills are good to take?
Spellcraft you need to identify stuff and pick up new formula, perception... for all the good things perception gets you.
What other skills are covered? Alchemists have enough skills they can be the backup rogue or they can be the knowledge guy...
4. What other Ideas do you have for me?
Taking both enhance and extend... not sure it's worth it. You might want to pick up two weapon fighting at 7th level so you can lob an extra bomb/ round when you get fast bombs at 8th. You aren't going to be a dedicated bomber but that gives you a really solid ranged attack.
5. What traits would be good? I get 2.
I like traits that enhance the character concept and build on that. I do like Accelerated Drinker even though you can't drink extracts with it because it lets you do Alchemical Allocation and drink a potion as a full round action (if it's in hand or you use spring loaded wrist sheaths).
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You could just, you know, play the character for while and find out how everything fits together. Then stick to options that work, picking the right feats isn't arcane knowledge and you have both a pretty firm build and a nice character concept in mind. Particularly love the skulls.
Considering it's a back-up character, he can't really do this.
You could just, you know, play the character for while and find out how everything fits together. Then stick to options that work, picking the right feats isn't arcane knowledge and you have both a pretty firm build and a nice character concept in mind. Particularly love the skulls.Considering it's a back-up character, he can't really do this.
Right, thats the issue.
And really it's a fairly heavy RP campaign with 1-2 combats per game.
Again it is Eberron and run fairly by the book.
Thus far my ideas go as such
I'm planning it as more of a combat character with bombs as an extra bonus.
The level breakdown would be Alch 8/MC 10
Feats
1 Toughness (Might change this if I drop the 1/2 orc FC bomb bonus)
3 Extra Discovery [Enhance Potion]
5 Power Attack
7 [[[Open]]] (Iron will???)
9 Extra Discovery [Fast Bombs]
12 [[[Open]]]
15 [[[Open]]]
18 Extra Discovery [Eternal Potion]
Discoverys
2 Feral Mutation
4 Extend Potion
6 [[[Open]]]
8 Combine Extract (Enlarge and Shield will be the goto)
10, MC2 Extended Mutation
12, MC4 Greater Mutagen
14, MC6 Furious Mutagen
16, MC8 Grand Mutagen
18, MC10 [[[Open]]] (perhaps Burly)
Thus far thats what I have.
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You could just, you know, play the character for while and find out how everything fits together. Then stick to options that work, picking the right feats isn't arcane knowledge and you have both a pretty firm build and a nice character concept in mind. Particularly love the skulls.Considering it's a back-up character, he can't really do this.
You mean he can't just pick what looks nice and go with it? Because that just feels silly with such strong stats and a workable build. I mean, he has already built Korgath here, it's not like I'm asking him to blindly rush into alchemist. Obviously he knows what strong options are.
That said, I agree with your choices. I'd add haste to the extend/enhance list. It's also the one I'd make permanent if given the chance. And when it comes to traits, Reactionary is strong and anything which gives you a better will save or bonus against spells and effects will come in handy Though I don't think you can reaööy fit Indomitable Faith(+1 Will) into your character anywhere.
Unfortunetly, As a back up character I really need to map it out all the way as I have no idea the Level I'll be when I need it.
That, and I am kinda anal about planning.
I am glad you like the sculls idea. I plan to toss a lot of stuff like that in for RP.
1. What are 2 good potions to take advantage of Enhance/Extend?(Remember they will not be used up due to 2nd level elixer)
Enlarge Person, Rage, Heroism, Protection from Evil, Magic Fang & Greater
2. Is it worth taking the extra bomb damage favored class for half-Orc with this build? Or is 1 more HP/lvl better?
Since you're planning to be in melee most of the time, I'd stick with the hit point.
3. What other skills are good to take?
Acrobatics, Fly, and UMD are all solid after a certain point.
4. What other Ideas do you have for me?
For a melee alchemist, I'd skip the extra discovery feat and possibly the toughness, and go with combat feats.
5. What traits would be good? I get 2.
Killer is good for a falchion user.
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You mean he can't just pick what looks nice and go with it? Because that just feels silly with such strong stats and a workable build. I mean, he has already built Korgath here, it's not like I'm asking him to blindly rush into alchemist. Obviously he knows what strong options are.You could just, you know, play the character for while and find out how everything fits together. Then stick to options that work, picking the right feats isn't arcane knowledge and you have both a pretty firm build and a nice character concept in mind. Particularly love the skulls.Considering it's a back-up character, he can't really do this.
Ah, I think I misunderstood you. You are right, playing a character gives you the sort of insight that this no amount of planning accounts for.
I've never been a big fan of campaigns that start at higher level for that reason, the characters are generally not organic at all. Something like this where you are building a back-up is better but not ideal.
You could just, you know, play the character for while and find out how everything fits together. Then stick to options that work, picking the right feats isn't arcane knowledge and you have both a pretty firm build and a nice character concept in mind. Particularly love the skulls.Considering it's a back-up character, he can't really do this.Right, thats the issue.
And really it's a fairly heavy RP campaign with 1-2 combats per game.
Again it is Eberron and run fairly by the book.Thus far my ideas go as such
I'm planning it as more of a combat character with bombs as an extra bonus.
The level breakdown would be Alch 8/MC 10
Feats
1 Toughness (Might change this if I drop the 1/2 orc FC bomb bonus)
3 Extra Discovery [Enhance Potion]
5 Power Attack
7 [[[Open]]] (Iron will???)
9 Extra Discovery [Fast Bombs]
12 [[[Open]]]
15 [[[Open]]]
18 Extra Discovery [Eternal Potion]Discoverys
2 Feral Mutation
4 Extend Potion
6 [[[Open]]]
8 Combine Extract (Enlarge and Shield will be the goto)
10, MC2 Extended Mutation
12, MC4 Greater Mutagen
14, MC6 Furious Mutagen
16, MC8 Grand Mutagen
18, MC10 [[[Open]]] (perhaps Burly)Thus far thats what I have.
why not Alch 7/barbarian 2/MC 10?
Rage only when you drink your mutagen, give your later ego some extra special STYLE!
why not Alch 7/barbarian 2/MC 10?
Why two levels of barbarian? I sense a plan . . .
Either class gets you +1 BAB
Alchemist get you two good saves instead of one
Barbarian 2 gets a Rage Power & Uncanny Dodge
Alchemist 8 gets a Discovery & a 3rd level extract
The real issue is that anything I splash puts off all my mutagens by several levels.
so a 2 splash of barbarian and I don't get greater Mutagen till level 14 not 12. sadly this is a much larger loss then the few rounds of rage make up for.
more and more I am thinking Alch 1-7/MC 1/Alch 8/MC 2-10 That way I get the extra 2 mutations/day a level sooner.
oh my you might have to wait two levels for another power and make a machine on paper....
flavor is way better than number crunch characters.
would you build the same alchemist the same way every time you played one, because thats what works out best in the numbers?
why not Alch 7/barbarian 2/MC 10?Why two levels of barbarian? I sense a plan . . .
Either class gets you +1 BAB
Alchemist get you two good saves instead of one
Barbarian 2 gets a Rage Power & Uncanny Dodge
Alchemist 8 gets a Discovery & a 3rd level extract
barb gives you TWO more bab (one form each level) and you get even more STR boost when mutated.
We have someone doing something similar now, except she's going to take a level or two of assassin that only the alternate form knows about (so only an assassin while mutated)
oh my you might have to wait two levels for another power and make a machine on paper....
flavor is way better than number crunch characters.
would you build the same alchemist the same way every time you played one, because thats what works out best in the numbers?
While I can see what your saying, really I can, I have to point out that you seem to be saying that one way of building a character is "Better" then another.
Yes I could take 2 lvls of barb and be slightly better for a few rounds a day, or I could keep like i am planning and be slightly worse for those few rounds but better the rest of the day.
Personaly I like to build out characters from the start. I normally have a plan from lvl 1. could that change? sure it could due to RP or some other reason. but that does not change the fact that I have a plan.
Now it may just be the ol' internet skewing things here, but I have to take issue with your tone. If I am mistaken then I am truly sorry, but you seem to be saying that unless I build a character for flavor only, screw the crunch then I am wrong in some way.
I thank everyone for the input, I have learned a lot.
oh my you might have to wait two levels for another power and make a machine on paper....
flavor is way better than number crunch characters.
would you build the same alchemist the same way every time you played one, because thats what works out best in the numbers?Now it may just be the ol' internet skewing things here, but I have to take issue with your tone. If I am mistaken then I am truly sorry, but you seem to be saying that unless I build a character for flavor only, screw the crunch then I am wrong in some way.
I thank everyone for the input, I have learned a lot.
no it sounded to me like you would only build a character one way, and that way being the bestest the soonest.
which in reality leaves a single build and one youve played that build, then thats it, every alchemist/master chymist would be the same build.and I dont know if you read what I read, but the master chymist is only in his "alter ego" form for a very limited amount of time per day, so the limited rounds of rage arent really that limited to "all day long" when the very nature of that part of the character is limited to begin with.
If you are going to argue fighter vs, barbarian and the fighter is a fighter all day long that makes sense.
But the melee of the master chymist in general is going to be quite limited to minutes per day in the first place.
Stupid post eating boards......
Anyway lets look at 10th lvl.
Mutate lasts 10 min/lvl thats 100 Min
If you read my build that is doubled (extended mutation)
MC can mutate 2x on their own, once forom the actual mutagen
Thats 3 times at 200 min each or a total of 600 min, thats 10 hours.
The barb gets like 10-12 rounds.
To me that is all day vs. a few rounds.
Stupid post eating boards......
Anyway lets look at 10th lvl.
Mutate lasts 10 min/lvl thats 100 Min
If you read my build that is doubled (extended mutation)
MC can mutate 2x on their own, once forom the actual mutagenThats 3 times at 200 min each or a total of 600 min, thats 10 hours.
The barb gets like 10-12 rounds.
To me that is all day vs. a few rounds.
our character hasnt even gotten one level of master chymist yet.
so we havent seen it played out.
but there seems to be something in there that totally abuses the purpose/is broken there.
lets assume you went all the way to 18th level (8 alch/10 mc)
18x20=360x3= 1080 minutes which is 18 hours....we've gone into ridiculous and silly at this point in my opinion as its taken something thats supposed to be temporary boost and turned it into and all the time boost.
in that case the mutagen should have been 1 min/lvl and not 10.
in that period of time, the alter ego could brew another mutagen and extend the time period over 24 hours and effectively stay mutated indefinately, which technically the mutant WOULD do that.
Even the incredible hulk had to go back to being bruce banner at some point...
anyway We havent seen it played out yet, but it seems pretty lame IMHO.
there is no way a barbarian could ever match that much rage, he has a huge draw back once he comes out of it and a draw back when he goes into it...in this case the alchemist gets the boost longer, and not only gets to avoid the negative 2 to armor class, but gains 2... and looses only say 2 intelligence points instead of his ability to do anything else other than fight.
eh it just seems really unbalanced to me.
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I'm no expert, but I remember reading the Alchemist base class, and MC and thinking that the Alchemist would actually be better than the MC at 20th level using the mutated form.
MC will have better bab, but Alchemist base can have the True Mutagen feature, which the MC can't. There were some other reasons I thought this, but I can't remember all the angles now.
Maybe someone else has a different opinion though.
I guess the question is whether you are playing the character or just building it on paper. There are a lot of levels before level 19/20 which the Master Chymst is going to be the better melee thug.
The biggest problem with Chymst at high levels is the loss of access to high level discoveries and the fact that there are only about 3-4 good Advanced Mutagens... you don't start noticing that until 18th level or so.
So do you miss out on the Master Chymst fun so you can have delayed gratification at 18th-20th level? Even then I don't think the gap between the two is big.
What'd be funny is if your alter self looked like an elf, and everyone assumed your ugly 1/2 orc persona was the mutagen ;)
What'd be funny is if your alter self looked like an elf, and everyone assumed your ugly 1/2 orc persona was the mutagen ;)
that IS funny.
I'm no expert, but I remember reading the Alchemist base class, and MC and thinking that the Alchemist would actually be better than the MC at 20th level using the mutated form.
MC will have better bab, but Alchemist base can have the True Mutagen feature, which the MC can't. There were some other reasons I thought this, but I can't remember all the angles now.
Maybe someone else has a different opinion though.
I guess the question is whether you are playing the character or just building it on paper. There are a lot of levels before level 19/20 which the Master Chymst is going to be the better melee thug.
The biggest problem with Chymst at high levels is the loss of access to high level discoveries and the fact that there are only about 3-4 good Advanced Mutagens... you don't start noticing that until 18th level or so.
So do you miss out on the Master Chymst fun so you can have delayed gratification at 18th-20th level? Even then I don't think the gap between the two is big.
i dont get what you are getting at ogre,
are you comparing whether or not to go master chymist at all?
even with out the MC mutate ability... (which totally removes the whole alter ego) the alchemists mutate at 18th level would still last for 6 hours (which is most of an adventuring day)
we were arguing the draw back of taking a few levels of barbarian in an already multiclassed build.
but to comment on your point...yes there are alot of levels before you get to 18th, and the first few levels of alchemist sucked sooooo much, our player took several levels of inquisitor just to remain having fun.
she'll end up being a 4th inquisitor/7th alchemist/6th level master chymist.... I really dont know why she took that 4th level of inquisitor, i think she got side tracked.
we havent played yet, maybe she will reverse it before we play again. but last i heard she was taking a 4th level of inqusitor.
oh my you might have to wait two levels for another power and make a machine on paper....
flavor is way better than number crunch characters.
would you build the same alchemist the same way every time you played one, because thats what works out best in the numbers?
Let me get this straight: Moving through the class (and its associated Prestige) normally and continuing to be a masterful alchemist is lame and cheating and munchkin number-crunching and not real roleplaying. But declaring that this magical scientist spend a large portion of his life's training learning to be a great uncivilized brute so that you can get a damage bonus when you need it is the one way to roleplay properly?
Seriously, I'm baffled. How can you claim that "yeah the alchemist continues being an alchemist" is bad roleplaying?