Lesser beast totem gives 2 claw attacks at 1d6+str each.
I assume you can't actually use them as secondary attacks, since if you are attacking with a weapon you can't use your claws, right?
(if you can, say so, then the rest of this post is moot)
I find that weird really, because to me it seems it's worse than just using a greatsword almost all the time.
You get twice your str bonus instead of 1.5 with a greatsword. But that seems to be the only advantage.
Do they get their str-mod to attack? I'm not sure, it doesn't say anywhere that natural attacks get it. (it says "Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus", and BAB is without str mod)
Also if I remember correctly natural attacks only crit on a 20 with a x2, not a 19-20 or even a 18-20.
It can't be MW or enchanted (you can get items or spells for that, so I figure that's about the same)
At level 6 the barbarian gets a second attack with the greatsword, while natural attacks don't get iterative attacks. So at this point the greatsword blows past the claws in every way.
At 10th level (with greater beast totem) claws increase to 1d8 each, with a x3 crit modifier, which probably puts them above the two greatsword attacks again, but at 11th level you get a 3rd greatsword attack. I didn't do the math, but I figure greatswords are now better once again. After that GS only get better, while the claws don't improve anymore.
The Pounce from Greater Best Totem is sure nice, but the whole claw deal seems like a filler power to me that's completely useless, so that pounce essentially gets more expensive as you have to buy an "empty" ragepower.
Did I miss anything that makes claws actually a viable weapon?
Do they get their str-mod to attack? I'm not sure, it doesn't say anywhere that natural attacks get it. (it says "Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus", and BAB is without str mod)
They do add Str to-hit.
About everything else, you are correct (lack of iterative attacks, MW-ability, etc).
Claws can still be useful, but for most Beast Totem barbarians, will probably remain a weapon to fall back on when disarmed, sundered, grappled (while grappled you can't use 2h weapons) etc rather than the primary form of attack, especially at higher levels.
You can attack with the claws while using a weapon. Provided it isn't two handed. The free hand can be used as a secondary weapon -5 and half strength damage.
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The great thing about claws (and a bite, if you're a half-orc) is that they are primary natural weapons, so you get your full base attack bonus for both claws, full strength damage, and Improved Natural Attack bumps them up to 2d6 claws. So, if you decide to go as a natural weapon barbarian (go half-orc. The bite is worth it in the long run), you're making 3 attacks at full bab with full strength modifier. Granted, that's not going to be as much DAMAGE as a greatsword if you get multiple hits with a greatsword, but each greatsword hit is 25% less accurate than the last. Basically, if you won't be able to hit with a majority of your greatsword attacks, you're better off using your natural weapons (if you have, say, an amulet of mighty fists [keen, "insert elemental damage here"] or something).
Edit*: You also get standard +2 power attack damage on them, which isn't great, but again, you're a good bit more accurate than with a greatsword.
I don't know about pounce, seems too much like a one-trick-pony to me. Charge, Full Attack, rinse and repeat.
I'm not saying it sucks, I'm aware that its probably really quite powerful, just that other rage powers you could get instead seem to have more vertisile aplications.
As for the bite, well could get Animal Fury as well, gives you a primary bite too.
I think I just don't like that claws are either primary attacks or nothing, while the two other natural attacks you can get (bite and Fiend Totem gore) can be used with a weapon. But I guess that's why they do alot less damage than the claws.
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I don't know about pounce, seems too much like a one-trick-pony to me. Charge, Full Attack, rinse and repeat.
I'm not saying it sucks, I'm aware that its probably really quite powerful, just that other rage powers you could get instead seem to have more vertisile aplications.
As for the bite, well could get Animal Fury as well, gives you a primary bite too.
I think I just don't like that claws are either primary attacks or nothing, while the two other natural attacks you can get (bite and Fiend Totem gore) can be used with a weapon. But I guess that's why they do alot less damage than the claws.
Remember, having both claws and a bite qualifies you for the Multi-Attack feat, which means that you could, theoretically, have a one-handed weapon for every iterative attack you get (20/15/10/5), and a bite and claw both at your bab-2 (18). If you want to do lots of accurate damage, that's probably the way to go.
Also, pounce does make you kind of a one-trick pony, but you're not LIMITED to pouncing. You can still take other actions as a normal barbarian. The only thing pounce does is grant you movement + full attacks, and for damage, there's no way to beat that (one of the reasons Mobile Fighter and Two-Weapon Warrior are some of the best fighter archetypes. High damage during mobility.)
Remember, having both claws and a bite qualifies you for the Multi-Attack feat, which means that you could, theoretically, have a one-handed weapon for every iterative attack you get (20/15/10/5), and a bite and claw both at your bab-2 (18). If you want to do lots of accurate damage, that's probably the way to go.
I don't think It's that easy...
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
yeah, which directly conflicts with how natural attacks are presented elsewhere, e.g. beastiary.
Jacobs responded to this issue OVER A YEAR AGO, though Errata still hasn`t been issued on the topic(!!!):
Part of the problem, alas, is that this is a rules mechanic that Jason was wrestling with up to the very last second. The Bestiary rules are correct. The part in the core rules that contradicts this is a fragment, alas, that stuck in there. It should be cleaned up, I agree. It's unfortunate that the confusion is in there, but again, as far as I understand the game and as far as I've been using the rules for the last several volumes of Pathfinder, the rules from the Bestiary are the correct ones.
One option that occurred to me: is there anything preventing making all Iterative attacks, say with a Greatsword, and then DROPPING the weapon to make Natural Attacks, e.g. including claws PREVIOUSLY used to wield the weapon?
Obviously, you are no longer holding the weapon in that case, so it`s more of a 1 round nova attack, but I think this is possible per RAW.
I doubt this is truely considered an optimal build but this is what i came up with messing about with the claws for a build i have not factored in magic items or even AC just the basic attacks.
Half Orc Barb 15 points
S 20 13 +1 lvl 4 +2 race
D 14 5
C 16 7 +1 lvl 8
I 08 -2
W 07 -4
C 07 -4
Toothy in place of Orc ferosity
Imvunerble Rager
Lvl/rage Ability
1/7 Power Attack,
2/10 Lesser Beast Totem
3/13 Dodge
4/16 Lesser Elemental Rage
5/19 Improved Nat Attack (Claw)
6/22 Beast Totem
7/25 Eldrich Claws
8/29 Elemental Rage
9/32 Lunge
10/35 Greater Beast Totem
With Rage and Power attack i make that
1st +
2nd +7 d6+8x2 / +7 d4+8
3rd +8 d6+8x2 / +8 d4+8
4th +9 d6+11x2 / +9 d4+11
5th +10 d8+11x2 / +10 d4+11
6th +11 d8+11x2 / +11 d4+11
7th +12 d8+11x2 / +12 d4+11
8th +12 d8+d6+13x2 / +12 d4+d6+13
9th +13 d8+d6+13x2 / +12 d4+d6+13
10th +14 2d6+1d6+13x2 / +14 d4+d6+13
I agree with many of the comments, and have a few additional points.
I find that weird really, because to me it seems it's worse than just using a greatsword almost all the time.
You get twice your str bonus instead of 1.5 with a greatsword. But that seems to be the only advantage.
It is also two attacks rather than one, so other bonuses also get added twice. If you are being effected by Inspire Courage or Prayer, you get twice the bonus while a greatsword only gives you the bonus damage once. Similarly, if you multiclass and have favored enemy bonuses, sneak attack, weapon specialization, those all apply twice as does bonus damage from an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
If you also pick up the bite attack (as recommended), those bonuses apply three times.
At level 6 the barbarian gets a second attack with the greatsword, while natural attacks don't get iterative attacks. So at this point the greatsword blows past the claws in every way.
Except that the second attack is less likely to hit. Average damage with the claws is 2p(3.5 + D + S), where D is the additional damage from things like inspire courage, S is the strength bonus and p is the probability that you hit when using your full BAB. The Greatsword does (p + p-.25)*(7+D+1.5S) = (2p-.25)(7+D+1.5S). The difference is 2p*(3.5+0.5S) - 0.25(7+D+1.5S). When p is low (so iterative attacks are almost an auto-miss) or D is high (so base weapon damage does not matter much) the claws are still better.
At 10th level (with greater beast totem) claws increase to 1d8 each, with a x3 crit modifier, which probably puts them above the two greatsword attacks again, but at 11th level you get a 3rd greatsword attack. I didn't do the math, but I figure greatswords are now better once again. After that GS only get better, while the claws don't improve anymore.
The math is similar to what I did above. The math does get complicated, but the basic result is going to be the same: high extra damage and low probabilities of hitting make the claws better.
There is also the fact that your approach to combat can be different than with a greatsword. If you are fighting a high AC enemy with a greatsword, you probably don't want to power attack, as that means that your third (and possibly second) iterative attacks will only hit on a 20. Since the second claw attack and potential bite) takes no penalty, power attacking with the claws can be a good idea even if it would be a bad idea with a greatsword.
Similar reasoning applies to things like Combat Expertise and any other "take a penalty to hit to gain an advantage elsewhere" ability.
Did I miss anything that makes claws actually a viable weapon?
Claws are probably generally weaker than a greatsword, but I don't think that they would be so weak as to be called non-viable. There are also certain situations where they will be strong (high AC opponent, need to hold an item in one hand, no weapons).
yeah, which directly conflicts with how natural attacks are presented elsewhere, e.g. beastiary.
Jacobs responded to this issue OVER A YEAR AGO, though Errata still hasn`t been issued on the topic(!!!):
Now that you mention it, I do remember that I stumbled across that rule conflict myself some time ago. It does seem weird that there's no official Errata on this yet after all this time...
But anyway, thank you for pointing this out!
I find that the beast totem rage powers combined with the feriocous mount and greater ferocious mount rage powers on a mounted barbarian are really nasty:
The mount powers gives your mount rage and your rage powers, which -- thanks to the beast totems include claws, and pounce. At level 11 you have just enough feats to have mounted combat, ride by attack, spirited charge, power attack and extra rage power animal fury and boon companion.
If you start with a small barbarian (say a gnome) you can get a boar as a mount that has pounce, with gore, two claws and a bite while the barbarian has two claws and a bite that deal double damage each... not a bad combo.
I saw this thread and was like "dotted? I don't remember posting in such a thread recently..."
Now I know why. Holy thread necromancy, Batman!