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Ok then. Prove it. Show us your eidolon that at level 8 will out damage a fighter have good saves and AC with hit points to match the fighter.That's not the point, anything the fighter can do the Eidolon can do as well ... this is what they can start at before dex and magic items (other than armour). Adding them to both won't change the fact that the Eidolon is ahead.There is nothing balanced about the Eidolon ... that AC 25 before dex and magic items is already better than a fighter with a +4 full plate.A fighter at level 8 can have better than 25 AC if he wants it.
While my overall stance is to go with Abraham on this one, one would have to consider that X vs Y will only be better given situation, tactics used buy the player, and overall playstyle. Granted I'm probably beating a dead horse with that one, as it's been fought on more trolled forums than a "Is Tupoc Really Dead!?" forum.
For example it was suggested earlier that you could use the Eidolon as a "get the he!! out of dodge free" card while the pc's run for their lives. ONly problem is the range requirement of the Eidolon before it automatically starts losing HP's, unless you have the feat that negates it. So this'll only work to a point.
Anyhow, if it's strictly a numbers game we're talking then I'd like to see as well. But I often get annoyed by those who don't fully understand the complexity of combat enough to think that numbers only go so far.
For example it was suggested earlier that you could use the Eidolon as a "get the he!! out of dodge free" card while the pc's run for their lives. ONly problem is the range requirement of the Eidolon before it automatically starts losing HP's, unless you have the feat that negates it. So this'll only work to a point.
In my experiences with this tactic so far (as a GM), it hasn't been an issue because the point at which the summoner is more than 100 feet away the eidolon was going to go down in the next round anyway. The kinds of things that are tough enough for the party to want to use this tactic tend to make quick work of the eidolon.
Still, a round or two head start in a dungeon can be a pretty big thing in terms of player survival.
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AC is only so important when your Eidolon gets 1-shotted while biting a remorhaz (which happened to me the other night) because of their pathetic 4.8 hp per level: (5.5 (avg of d10) + 1 (con)) * 15 (HD @ lvl 20) / 20 (levels)
Or gets 1-shotted from a fireball (which happened earlier). Keep in mind summon eidolon is a full round cast time and competes with haste spell slot.
So it isn't quite as OP as people will have you believe. I've lost my Eidolon in about 25-30% of PFS scenarios.
I removed a post.
If you think someone is trolling, don't respond and flag it as you feel appropriate. If you call some one out, you're either being insulting (if you're wrong), or giving them exactly what they want (if you are correct.)
Stuffs about X vs Y which is usually right on.
The reason I ask for the build in this case is because it is such a straight comparison. Pinky is directly claiming that the eidolon is a better fighter than the fighter. IF this is true then it is a case where posting an eidolon will plainly show it being better than the fighter in everything that is important to the fighter: HP, Attack Bonus, Damage, Saves, AC, Mobility and Skills.
I rather doubt that anyone can build an eidolon that is the same as a fighter of equal level to the summoner nevermind better.
The reason I ask for the build in this case is because it is such a straight comparison. Pinky is directly claiming that the eidolon is a better fighter than the fighter. IF this is true then it is a case where posting an eidolon will plainly show it being better than the fighter in everything that is important to the fighter: HP, Attack Bonus, Damage, Saves, AC, Mobility and Skills.I rather doubt that anyone can build an eidolon that is the same as a fighter of equal level to the summoner nevermind better.
The point's irrelevant. Even if the Eidolon were a better fighter (and it really, really isn't), it's also immediately 1-shotted by anything that renders the summoner unconscious, dismissal, anti-magic field, etc.
In my game the 9th level summoner isn't the damage dealer. In fact at this point he's missing something like half of his attacks each round. The worry is the ranger/archery fighter. He annihilated the NPC summoner bad guy in 1 full round attack last game because the party played smart.
...and he has a +1 shocking seeking strength bow with all the archery feats in the world thrown onto it.
How is the point irrelevant? He says that the eidolon is straight up better than the fighter -- yet you are experiencing the exact opposite.
Which is the point -- the eidolon isn't better than the fighter -- and as such isn't likely to be overpowered -- especially when people insist that somehow the fighter is possibly the weakest class available. If such is the case and the eidolon doesn't compare then it can't possibly be overpowered.
Thus unless he (pinky) can prove otherwise then the point stands.
That's not the point, anything the fighter can do the Eidolon can do as well ... this is what they can start at before dex and magic items (other than armour). Adding them to both won't change the fact that the Eidolon is ahead.There is nothing balanced about the Eidolon ... that AC 25 before dex and magic items is already better than a fighter with a +4 full plate.A fighter at level 8 can have better than 25 AC if he wants it.
In order to combat moving goalpost give me a set of criteria to go by.
Edit:
1. Are you comparing the eidolon to any fighting style
2. What specific things does the eidolon do better that make it more attractive to have than a fighter in the party.
It'd be nice if ALL DM's would read these summoner broken threads before letting someone create a summoner in thier games. Though, I have yet to have one in one of my games, I have learned alot.
Just reading these threads I have seen lots of things I have overlooked by skimming the class. And truthfully, I skim alot in the rules, bad habbit learned during high school.
But the summoner is definitely not a class one should "skim". It seems to need a more in depth reading and perhaps re-reading.
I know now, when one of my players makes a summoner that I will have to go over it with a fine tooth comb..and repeat it every time it evolves.
I also am in the camp that thinks most of these "broken" summoners are honest errors and not blatent cheating. Sometimes one's interpretation of the rules is always more leniant to the result one wants. :P
(maybe we should keep a "summoner/eidolon thread near top, so posters don't have to keep re-making them.)
Eidolon threads are broken! They won't stay dead!!!
Greg
Ok then. Prove it. Show us your eidolon that at level 8 will out damage a fighter have good saves and AC with hit points to match the fighter.That's not the point, anything the fighter can do the Eidolon can do as well ... this is what they can start at before dex and magic items (other than armour). Adding them to both won't change the fact that the Eidolon is ahead.There is nothing balanced about the Eidolon ... that AC 25 before dex and magic items is already better than a fighter with a +4 full plate.A fighter at level 8 can have better than 25 AC if he wants it.
You might want to have him make the summoner also, since if all the gear goes to the eidolon it will make the summoner will be vulnerable. Why attack the eidolon if you can get better results if the summoner is easier to deal with?
edit:Clarification and Grammar-removed the word "more"
You might want to have him make the summoner also since if all the gear goes to the eidolon the summoner will be vulnerable, and why attack the eidolon if you can get more better results if the summoner is easier to deal with.
It is surprising how often this is simply over looked and not taken into account. That more then anything is your big glaring weak spot.
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I think the problem stems from the age-old predicament that what is thematically intriguing is not always feasable in an executable sense for the current RAW. Due to all the exceptions and differences between Eidolon's and other creatures of their type, it gets to be one of those things where DM's just take it at face value, which is NOT something you can do in this case. Then half-way through the campaign they realize "Why can't I balance this crap?" and thus the neverending cycle of Eidolon's are Broken threads.
Bottom line, DM's. Learn to read. It is a skill that will enrich your lives! :D
I'm only half-kidding....
Eidolon threads are broken! They won't stay dead!!!
Greg
I know, its ridiculous.
Plus they get full BAB and seven thread attacks. Its just ridiculous.
There only weakness is math, which only (insert broken class here) gets and no one ever plays them.
I just wish the developers would use there time machines, go back, and place a madatory picture of doppy from the seven dwarves as a tag on anyone who uses the word broken. Besides how long are they going to use that time machine and not do anything, eidolon threads are running loose in the wild right now.
Good thing I prepared eidolon thread immunity for tomorrow, that way I will only sustain flesh wounds!
^rant
mandatory picture of Dopey...Eidolon threads are broken! They won't stay dead!!!
Greg
I know, its ridiculous.
Plus they get full BAB and seven thread attacks. Its just ridiculous.
There only weakness is math, which only (insert broken class here) gets and no one ever plays them.
I just wish the developers would use there time machines, go back, and place a madatory picture of doppy from the seven dwarves as a tag on anyone who uses the word broken. Besides how long are they going to use that time machine and not do anything, eidolon threads are running loose in the wild right now.
Good thing I prepared eidolon thread immunity for tomorrow, that way I will only sustain flesh wounds!
^rant
see I spelt it wrong on purpose (that way I wouldnt have to get the picture of doom). you should have followed suit, you poor soul!
True..wanna take bets on if the OP comes back and when the next MG the Summoner is OP" thread pops up. Anyone got odds on that one having the very same issues?Heck. I expect RavingDork to bring this issue up again... it'll be his third time as you can see the history where He went over this exact same question and got an answer from James Jacobs. If that couldn't settle the question, I guess there will be no true settlement.
That's baiting, and also against the CoC.
see I spelt it wrong on purpose (that way I wouldnt have to get the picture of doom). you should have followed suit, you poor soul!mandatory picture of Dopey...Eidolon threads are broken! They won't stay dead!!!
Greg
I know, its ridiculous.
Plus they get full BAB and seven thread attacks. Its just ridiculous.
There only weakness is math, which only (insert broken class here) gets and no one ever plays them.
I just wish the developers would use there time machines, go back, and place a madatory picture of doppy from the seven dwarves as a tag on anyone who uses the word broken. Besides how long are they going to use that time machine and not do anything, eidolon threads are running loose in the wild right now.
Good thing I prepared eidolon thread immunity for tomorrow, that way I will only sustain flesh wounds!
^rant
You guys skeer me. But in a good way....sorta.
Greg
It's only baiting when it's not the truth... and the evidence is in this thread.That's baiting, and also against the CoC.True..wanna take bets on if the OP comes back and when the next MG the Summoner is OP" thread pops up. Anyone got odds on that one having the very same issues?Heck. I expect RavingDork to bring this issue up again... it'll be his third time as you can see the history where He went over this exact same question and got an answer from James Jacobs. If that couldn't settle the question, I guess there will be no true settlement.
It IS baiting. For some reason, you are the ONLY person in this thread that has taken issue with any of my posts herein.
If you truly believe one or more of my posts have crossed the line, then feel free to report them. If the moderators do nothing about it, well then I guess we'll have our answer.
Look flag it and move on or don't -- but don't be posting about it either way -- such doesn't help.
As your weakness is both pron and flat footed, the fight would be over soon at range. Sunder the bag, kill him before his pet can get you, at rang, say 200' with an archer fighter very, very easy.
I can't take that as serious with "He is in a backpack". It pretty much is you not addressing the issue of the summoner at all.
Heroism, even Extended, isn't "always on". A level 8 caster casting an extended heroism gets less than 3 hours, and a level 8 Summoner only has 2 level 3 spell slots; since the other is taken up by greater magic fang, he doesn't have enough to get 8 hours out of it.
Actually, other than the lifelink, I think he is making the best use of it overall. I mean that IS the point of the class, that the Eido IS the character, no?
The key is the Large evolution. Without it, a melee Eido is meh. With it, it can really tank very effectively. In my current group, the Eido IS the main melee guy, with a mounted fighter serving as positional DPR. It works really well actually, but leaves a totally different flavor to the trad 4. Which is kind of fun :)
Not flat footed if he knows there is combat.
Yes, actually, he is flat-footed (or more correctly, denied his dexterity bonus to AC), because everything in the fight has total concealment from him.
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Just off the top of my head, Diehard requires Endurance as a prerequisite feat, and you don't have enough Claws to cover all of your limb attacks as far as I can tell.
Also, according to wealth by level guidelines, the eidolon has over 30,000 out of 33,000gp worth of magical gear for an 8th level character, leaving the summoner with less than 3,000gp worth of gear. Not counting the large-sized backpack of cheese...
]
Not a prawn, a half elf. Not flat footed if he knows there is combat. Is there even ranged sunder in PF? Make it an steel chest if it makes you happy, just ignore the summoner.Killing PCs with low encounter level encounters through ranged ambushes and foreknowledge of PC weaknesses is trivial for any class BTW. Batman vs. Superman with enough preparation ... etc.
Call him helpless then if it makes you feel better. He can do nothing he is basically tied up and a big target. And yes archer archtype can sunder at range.
It is not about an ambush just as you ignore the summoner anyone knowing he is a summoner will engage at range, even a 100 feet. I play an archer and I often hit from the 100-200' range with no ambush, Heck 110 feet isn't even a -2.
You asked how you handled that and it is very, very easy.You are ignoring half of your class, that being the summoner.
That and you can not count on having all those buffs on every single fight, just as Zurai stated
Feats :
Multiattack
Martial Weapon Proficiency Greatsword
Die Hard
How's it picking Diehard without meeting the prereq?
HP 51+71 from the Summoner through life link ...
Eh, the summoner-as-HP-battery only works up to a point. The summoner can only burn HP when a hit would otherwise kill the eidolon, so there's still a pretty good chance it takes a hit that puts it less than 0 but greater than the -17 of its CON score. Even if it has Diehard at that point the eidolon's acting Staggered, which beats Unconscious but still gives up most of its attacks.
I have claws for my legs, I have claws for one set of arms, I have 2 sets of arms without claws. One set for the greatsword, one arm for the shield and one arm to pick his nose.
do you need multi-attack or do Eidos get to use all of their attacks "for free"?
do you need multi-attack or do Eidos get to use all of their attacks "for free"?Well I have multi-attack ... but all natural weapons become secondary (ie. half strength bonus).
Sorry, didn't see that, thanks!!!
Honestly, I would never send another melee type against this thing. Be like 2 hammers striking each other. Sun Tzu would NOT approve :) I'd probably swarm it with summoned critters, SM/SNA IV would get me a ton of good choices. Or put it to sleep. debuf->debuff->kill (dispel magic->slow->lightning bolt). Or sneak attack it from hiding. Or use archers.
Hell, at this things size, use TREBUCHETS :)
So please, just ignore the summoner ...
But that is the thing. He must stay within a set range of the summoner so you simply can not just ignore him. You can not act like he is not there, when he always will be close and with this build a sitting target.
You can not talk of one without the other. It is like talking of a fighter and not including feats and gear. The two are not isolated.
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Attack bonus 19 +6(BAB) +10(strength) +1(enhancement) +2(heroism) +1(haste) -1(size)
Full Attack :
Greatsword +19/+19/+14 3d6+16
Claws +17/+17/+17/+17 1d6+6
Rend 1d8+16
Multiattack only helps out natural attacks. You need Multiweapon Fighting or Two-weapon Fighting to offset additional weapon penalties. Without it, you're looking at:
Greatsword +13/+8/+3 3d6+16Claws +17/+17/+17/+17 1d6+6
Rend 1d8+16
If you instead go with multiweapon fighting, it still only partially offsets the penalties and you end up with:
Greatsword +15/+15/+10 3d6+16
Claws +14/+14/+14/+14 1d6+6
Rend 1d8+16
In 1 level you'd get Multiattack for free.
Full Attack :
Greatsword +20/+20/+15 3d6+17
Claws +18/+18/+18/+18 1d8+6
Rend 1d8+17What kind of melee fighter would you propose putting up against that?
You and some of the other builders are not using some important rules here...
From the Pathfinder core rules page 182 under natural attacks...
You can make attacks with natural weapons in
combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and
unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for
each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack
and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.
When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your
natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks,
using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2
of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition,
all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed
strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your
natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for
determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such
as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack (see the Pathfinder
RPG Bestiary) can reduce these penalties.
so... no feats for two weapon fighting and off hand light weapons is
-4 / -8. Multiattack lets him treat secondaries as only -2 rather than -5 (they are still secondaries but multi-attack makes secondaries only -2) which puts us at -4 for the sword and -2 for the claws.Now I think the author here is saying that he can use his legs on a biped to attack along with the two free arms. While the rules are silent on that notion, and some arguments can be made that it is allowed, simple reason would tend to state the eidolon needs to stand on something while making attacks and that something would be its legs. Karate-claw kicking I suppose is the justification but as a DM, I would not allow it and force the purchase of further limbs to justify the attacks. Gaining both movement and attacks from a limb seems to circumvent the balance of the limb rules for legs and meaning you should buy nothing but legs if you use natural claw attacks.
Your backpack plan, as a game master I would give you a hard time on that. A backpack is not a great place to be casting spells from and your view of the battlefield is quite limited and your ability to act while occupying another creatures space is very limiting from a rules perspective. Finally you would not be "safe" sitting in there against any opponent smart enough to figure out what is happening.
Finally, I don't think using haste against non hasted is reasonable for your comparison. Mr fighter can easily drink a haste potion before the fight begins, same for those other buffs to be honest.
So that gives Mr monster a +16/+16/+11 (one of those is haste) with the great sword and +16/+16 with the claws. Respectable but not so spectacular.
The early example also cannot apply cold damage to his greatsword, it only applies to natural attacks.
--- that said ---
The eidolon is still potentially broken in various ways from a balance perspective. An ambitions player can if nothing else create a character that eats up as much game time as 6 normal characters on their combat rounds. And as others have said, from a rules perspective it takes quite a lot of knowledge an lawyering to get it "correct" and even then there are grey areas like the claws on the legs.
Like anything, good game master adjudication can deal with most of the problem points.
I should plug my PDF here on Paizo, Advanced Feats: The Summoner's Circle. It goes into some detail about multi armed weapon and natural weapon combat rules and discusses some of the balance and play issues with the class in addition to the 30 feats and the 3 builds.
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Just off the top of my head, Diehard requires Endurance as a prerequisite feat,Oops ... now that is a blunder.
and you don't have enough Claws to cover all of your limb attacks as far as I can tell.I have claws for my legs, I have claws for one set of arms, I have 2 sets of arms without claws. One set for the greatsword, one arm for the shield and one arm to pick his nose.
Also, according to wealth by level guidelines, the eidolon has over 30,000 out of 33,000gp worth of magical gear for an 8th level character, leaving the summoner with less than 3,000gp worth of gear. Not counting the large-sized backpack of cheese...Mundane items don't cost a lot of money.
I must have been reading it wrong, it looked like he had a weird combination of claws/limbs, but your math is right it seems.
Now you'll have to trade a feat to get Endurance as the prereq, or else you can't assume the free life-link HP. 4 EP will get you Simple and Martial Weapon Proficiencies. Either that or trade the greatsword in for a stick, or ditch the Multiattack.
Note also that spending a feat on Multiattack when you get it for free next level isn't something I suspect you'd see very often. And having the summoner with less than 3000gp worth of gear (and also assuming NOT in his own pope-box) is another weakness that is kinda being ignored. Now if only I didn't have to go do some work instead of building an 8th level fighter to compare....
sigh duty calls
Full Attack :
Greatsword +20/+20/+15 3d6+17
Claws +18/+18/+18/+18 1d8+6
Rend 1d8+17What kind of melee fighter would you propose putting up against that?
You and some of the other builders are not using some important rules here...
From the Pathfinder core rules page 182 under natural attacks...
You can make attacks with natural weapons in
combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and
unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for
each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack
and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.
When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your
natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks,
using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2
of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition,
all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed
strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your
natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for
determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such
as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack (see the Pathfinder
RPG Bestiary) can reduce these penalties.so... no feats for two weapon fighting and off hand light weapons is
-4 / -8. Multiattack lets him treat secondaries as only -2 rather than -5 (they are still secondaries but multi-attack makes secondaries only -2) but that doesn't matter because with the weapon it all goes under the TWF rules which puts us at -4 for the sword and -8 for the claws.Now I think the author here is saying that he can use his legs on a biped to attack along with the two free arms. While the rules are silent on that notion, and some arguments can be made that it is allowed, simple reason would tend to state the eidolon needs to stand on something while making attacks and that something would be its legs. Karate-claw kicking I suppose is the justification but as a DM, I would not allow it and force the...
I agree with most of what you said, but the claws on the feet is specifically allowed. 1 set of leg limbs may have the claws evolution. They did this to boost the quadraped eidolon, but inadvertantly added this into the biped. There are examples of monsters in the beastiary with only 2 legs that have claw attacks on the feet, particularly Deinonychus. So it does actually get 4 claw attacks by the rules.
How is the large eidolon inside of a backpack?
Stuff about the eidolon taking on a fighter.
I thought the goal was to see if the eidolon could take the fighter's place-->do its job better.
I still don't see the summoner side built. In case it was missed I don't see why anyone would not go after the summoner first so the summoner has to be accounted for.
Stuff about the eidolon taking on a fighter.I thought the goal was to see if the eidolon could take the fighter's place-->do its job better.
I still don't see the summoner side built. In case it was missed I don't see why anyone would not go after the summoner first so the summoner has to be accounted for.
He keeps saying to ignore the summoner for some reason. We know he has no gear as his pet has used 30k of his 33k.
He keeps saying to ignore the summoner for some reason. We know he has no gear as his pet has used 30k of his 33k.Stuff about the eidolon taking on a fighter.I thought the goal was to see if the eidolon could take the fighter's place-->do its job better.
I still don't see the summoner side built. In case it was missed I don't see why anyone would not go after the summoner first so the summoner has to be accounted for.
And it is taking up a good chunck of the spells in the assumed combat buffs.
Small point before I get into anything -- the Dex on the Eidolon is off by 2. Large size gives you a -2 penalty to the Dex which isn't factored in yet.
Got stuff to do will post in depth later.