is there a way for animals with a base attack of 6 or higher to gain iterative attacks with their natural weapons
is there a way for animals with a base attack of 6 or higher to gain iterative attacks with their natural weapons
No.
But a creature that uses a weapon and has natural attacks can use them both, ie. full attack with sword, then natural attack (claw) at -5 (or is it -2?).
is there a way for animals with a base attack of 6 or higher to gain iterative attacks with their natural weapons
The animal can make whichever type of attack it prefers. It can use an iterative attack if it has the BAB for it, or it can make a natural attack with every natural attack it has.
Let's take an animal with a bite only. It can only make a bite attack as a natural attack. However, when it get's +6, it can make a bite at +6 and another at +1. However, if it had a bite and two claws, it would be insane to do that, as it is much better off making a full attack with all natural weapons (bite/claw/claw).
In general, animals don't use iterative attacks because they are better off not doing so.
A trained animal companion might be better off, say an ape with enchanted cestuses for example, in which case it's druid would direct it to use it's cestuses instead. But most animals don't have enchanted equipment to make it a better option.
To do as suggested above and make a weapon attack with a natural attack, the creature would have to have the multiattack feat or two-weapon-fighting feat, depending on the attack/limb configuration.
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is there a way for animals with a base attack of 6 or higher to gain iterative attacks with their natural weaponsThe animal can make whichever type of attack it prefers. It can use an iterative attack if it has the BAB for it, or it can make a natural attack with every natural attack it has.
Let's take an animal with a bite only. It can only make a bite attack as a natural attack. However, when it get's +6, it can make a bite at +6 and another at +1. However, if it had a bite and two claws, it would be insane to do that, as it is much better off making a full attack with all natural weapons (bite/claw/claw).
No. Natural attacks never gain iterative attacks merely due to BAB. If I'm missing something, please help me by citing the rule.
Natural weapon attacks never get iteratives but creatures can do iterative unarmed attacks in addition to natural attacks by taking some penalties.
From Rules of the Game: Unarmed Attacks (Part Two)
Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons
Just as a creature can add weapon attacks to a full attack made with natural weapons, so too can it combine unarmed attacks with natural weapons. Two options are available to accomplish this task.
A creature can choose to treat its unarmed attacks as its primary attacks and its natural weapons as secondary attacks. (This method is normally used to add weapon attacks to a natural attack routine.) The creature must make all unarmed attacks with its primary limb, which prevents that hand from being used for a natural attack such as a claw or slam. It uses its full base attack bonus for the natural attack, gaining additional attacks as normal for a high base attack bonus, and adds its full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Of course, each of these attacks provokes an attack of opportunity if the target is unarmed (unless the creature has Improved Unarmed Strike). However, its natural weapons all become secondary attacks, taking the -5 penalty on attack rolls (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) and adding only half the monster's Strength bonus on damage rolls.
A simpler method is to treat the creature's unarmed attack as an off-hand attack. (After all, an unarmed strike is rarely as effective as a weapon attack would be, so it doesn't really merit the same level of priority in the average monster's attack array.) Instead of using its primary limb to deliver the unarmed attack, it uses a kick, head butt, or other appendage that isn't otherwise used to deliver a natural attack. The creature gains one unarmed strike, which deals damage appropriate to its size plus half its Strength bonus (since it's an off-hand attack). A creature using this method suffers a -4 penalty on all attacks (since it's effectively fighting with two weapons and its off-hand weapon is light). The damage for its natural attacks is unchanged. This method requires fewer calculations on the fly, so it's probably easier to use in play.
Let's look at the nalfeshnee for an example of how each of these methods would work in play.
A nalfeshnee using the first method would have three unarmed attacks (thanks to its base attack bonus of +14). Applying its size modifier, and Strength modifier, the nalfeshnee's total attack modifiers for its three natural attacks are +19, +14, and +9. These natural attacks each deal 1d6+7 points of nonlethal damage. Each of the nalfeshnee's natural weapons takes a -2 penalty for a secondary natural weapon (thanks to the nalfeshnee's Multiattack feat) and gains only half the nalfeshnee's Strength modifier to damage, which gives it two secondary attacks, as follows: one bite +18 (2d8+3) and one claw +17 (1d8+3); it loses one claw attack in order to make unarmed attacks with its primary limb.
Using the second method, the nalfeshnee's natural attacks are made at a -4 penalty (bite +16, 2 claws +13) but deal normal damage. It then makes one unarmed attack at +15 (+14 for base attack bonus, -2 for size, +7 for Strength, -4 for off-hand light weapon) that deals 1d6+3 points of nonlethal damage.
In general unless the creature has improved unarmed strike in order to do lethal damage and avoid AoOs I think mixing unarmed iteratives and natural weapons is a bad idea. Mixing iteratives from manufactured weapons and natural weapons is pretty cool though.
Whoops, sorry. Got some house rules crossed with new PF bestiary rules.
*sigh* I'm glad my current game is switching over from 3.5 to PF, keeping 3 sets of rules (3.5, my house rules, and PF) straight is getting harder by the day.
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is there a way for animals with a base attack of 6 or higher to gain iterative attacks with their natural weaponsNo, unless they decide to use Unarmed Strike weapon (which isn't a natural attack)
That's possible. Arguably, unarmed strike is a simple weapon and is not a natural weapon listed in the animal's stat block, so most animals won't be proficient with it. That line of argument has weird consequences, though.
That's possible. Arguably, unarmed strike is a simple weapon and is not a natural weapon listed in the animal's stat block, so most animals won't be proficient with it. That line of argument has weird consequences, though.is there a way for animals with a base attack of 6 or higher to gain iterative attacks with their natural weaponsNo, unless they decide to use Unarmed Strike weapon (which isn't a natural attack)
Everyone is proficient with unarmed strike.
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Everyone is proficient with unarmed strike.That's possible. Arguably, unarmed strike is a simple weapon and is not a natural weapon listed in the animal's stat block, so most animals won't be proficient with it. That line of argument has weird consequences, though.is there a way for animals with a base attack of 6 or higher to gain iterative attacks with their natural weaponsNo, unless they decide to use Unarmed Strike weapon (which isn't a natural attack)
I'd like to think most humanoids are, otherwise, as mentioned, it gets weird. But that's a question for another day. For an animal:
Proficient with its natural weapons only.
Is it proficient in using its natural weapons as if they were fists? I can't see that as a typical proficient use of a claw or tentacle.
Is an ape proficient using it's fist? How about a camel spitting? Or an ostrich using it's beak to bop you on the head? None of those three are natural attacks (they don't do lethal damage). But all three animals sure can use them to great effect. :)
It get's really wierd if you remove unarmed attack from animals, and doesn't really simulate the fact that a tiger can reach out and smack it's cubs head over tail without using it's claws (or the zookeeper for that matter).
It get's really wierd if you remove unarmed attack from animals, and doesn't really simulate the fact that a tiger can reach out and smack it's cubs head over tail without using it's claws (or the zookeeper for that matter).
You can always use a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage by taking a -4 attack penalty.
It get's really wierd if you remove unarmed attack from animals, and doesn't really simulate the fact that a tiger can reach out and smack it's cubs head over tail without using it's claws (or the zookeeper for that matter).You can always use a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage by taking a -4 attack penalty.
which is the same as unarmed with non-proficiency. Either way, it is weird that a tiger or lion could slap you with it's claws 20% easier than with it's paw. I have 3 cats, believe me, there's not a whit of difference in their accuracy popping you with claws or with the bottom of their paw.