| Krallek |
Hi all. Thanks in advance for some advice. One of the members of our party is not having too much fun. Currently his wiz/rog character is kind of broken. He spends most of his time running from danger, getting his bell rung, avoiding danger, being nearly or actually dead, and/or getting mushed. He contributes something meaningful perhaps one session in three and the rest of the time it is just survival. Our DM has agreed to let him rebuild his character to make it more viable, thus the reason for the post.
Sorry but I don't know his stats and such exactly. I have asked him to email it to me and will post them once I get them but in general he is listed below. I believe his original intention for the character was to be kind of a utility or support character but even that isn't really panning out.
Halfling Wizard 5, Rogue 3. As a wizard he has specialized in the illusion school of magic. He wields a blowgun, uses poisons, and has just come into posession of two kick butt short swords called whisper and shadow. These are from the "Carnival of Tears" mod if you are familiar.
They are +1 cold iron longswords that when used in tandem grant two weapon fighting. They also are capable of casting silence and invisibility 3 times per day each. Pretty decent imho.
The build I had in mind was to simply make his wizard side a generalist to augment his rogue side and start leveling more in that class. I was thinking to use the two short swords and push hard on the dodge, spring attack line of feats with an eye on eventually getting those two concealment feats in that branch (sorry forget names at moment).
I believe he could be viable in melee as a rogue provided he pumpes up some defenses, positions himself well in respect to the 3 tanks, and uses his magic to boost his total damage output.
What do you think? Thanks in advance.
| Blave |
First of all: Wizard/Rogue CAN work. However, most of the time the two classes just mess with each other way too much. The Rogue levels delay your casting progression signficantly (which is always VERY bad) and the Wizard levels hurt your BAB, HP, Sneak attack, AC (As you most likely wear either very light or no armor) and pretty much anything else that makes rogues viable. Being a Halfling, while not totally disastrous, hurts as well.
My advice: Stick with one class or the other, not both. If he really wants to do rogue-ish stuff with his wizard, 1 level of rogue is enough to get all the class skills. Leave the rest to his (hopefully) high int. You can probably even make do without any rogue levels.
Since he's rebuilding the character, not making a completely new one, a race shift is most likely out of question. However, an elf would fit the role SO much better. Yes, it is an opimization choice, but with an already less then optimal class(es)-choice, going for the "best" race might really help.
If he doesn't want to change his class-spread, he should seriously consider going Arcane Trickser (if he hasn't already). While this Prestige Class is far from powerful, the one thing that hurts it most are the requirements of being a 3rd level wizard and 3rd level rogue. But since he fulfills those already, he might as well go for the extra skill points and sneak attack (over more wizard levels) or the additional spell progression (oder more rugue).
More tweaking is hard without the stats but maybe this'll help you already. At least a bit.
| Abraham spalding |
Halfling Bard(sandman) 8
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike, piranha strike, Nimble Moves
Sandman bard gets sneak attack, bard spells, trapfinding, casting in light armor (with shields), the ability to steal spells, and so much more. You have great buff spells, healing magics, sneak attack, lots of skills, and since you are single class your BAB is better than it would be. You aren't going to use spells for your damage with this build -- instead you want short swords of subtlety. These swords are in the core rules and are +1 short swords -- that get a +4 bonus (both to hit and damage) on top of the +1 when you sneak attack. Tasty eh? Piranha strike is basically a Dex based power attack that doesn't give extra damage to two handed weapons. He'll get two weapon fighting at ninth level if he wants to.
It's the best combination of arcane magic and rogue like talents available current that is easy to play (this last part being stressed) -- he'll have something the party needs all the time if he's slightly careful with his spell choices, and he'll be able to hold his head up in combat (and obviously out of combat) -- he's an excellent sneak as well -- finally halfling plays into it beautifully.
**************************************
Mechanics:
Dex of 18 and Cha of 18 -- strength needs to be a 10 but no higher -- next most important is Con followed by Int and Wis (both should be 10 with Con in the 12+ range if possible) With a 20 point buy I would do the following:
Strength 10(starts 12 -2 for race)
Dex 18 (starts 14 +2 race +1 at level 4 + 1 at level 8)
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 18 (starts 16 +2 race)
With the following equipment:
Chain Shirt +1
Buckler +1
Cloak of Resistance +1
Short Sword of Subtlety
Which will give him the following stat line:
AC: 22
HP: 56 (favored class bonus to HP)
Attack:
Short Sword of Subtlety +10/+5 (1d4+7)
Sneak attack (flat footed opponent) +14/+9 (1d4+11+1d6)
Sneak Attack (flanking) +16/+11 (1d4+11+1d6)
If he gets a good hope or haste off on the party everyone will feel how he contributed (these are the two best buffing spells in the game -- period).
Good hope gives everyone in the party +2 to hit, damage, save throws, skill checks and ability checks. While haste is of course haste.
| Sylvanite |
He should be nowhere near combat if possible. Redesign to shoot Lazor beams from afar and go with Arcane Trickster.
The swords are cool, but his character is asking to be killed if it is in melee.
Jack up Dex, get Point Blank, Precise, and maybe even Weapon Focus Ray. Get stealth as high as possible and snipe with rays/use Vanish, Invisibility etc. to get sneak attack when needed. Also, just dropping Invis and buffing or summoning or whatever is a good thing if he is taking too much heat. Fly is nice as well.
| FireberdGNOME |
If you are going to stick with Wiz/Rog, go two levels of Rogue. Only. It gets you Evasion, extra skill ranks, and one Talent while not totally ruining your casting ability. The casting ability will be the future of a Wiz/Rog; flexible, capable.
Avoid melee, unless you use solid buffs consistently (Blur, Mage Armor...) and even then, you are not going to be an effective melee. Truly, you would be better of casting, supporting, and shooting. DEX and INT are obviously your primary stats; for accuracy and spells. Your AC is never going be even decent (unless you get some seriously generous donations!). Your damage output will be mediocre at best, so maybe the blowgun/poison is a good idea.
Single Class Bard (Sandman, or Magician) may reflect a good Rogue-ish caster.
For what it's worth, I am pretty keen on the Rog/Wiz concept. Take a look at the Arcane Trickster (that does require three rogue levels (Sneak Attack 2d6 required) and rock with it!
GNOME
| Benicio Del Espada |
I wondered the same thing as mentioned above. He could have gotten into arcane trickster 2 levels ago.
A small 8th-level character with a base BAB of 4 has no business in melee. He should be casting spells and being sneaky. TWF is useless for him. If your GM will allow it, rebuild him with a focus on magic and stealth, and levels of AT, which will keep his sneak attack progressing. He'll get a lot more use out of invisibility and silent spellcasting than two swords he can't hit anything with.
Either go the sandman route, if he wants to do a little melee (never impressive with a halfling), or arcane trickster for adding sneak attack to his scorching rays. The only attack rolls he should be making are ranged touch sneak attacks. When he can't do that, he should be casting spells that help the whole party, or buffing himself for sneakiness. He should swap the swords for a spell-storing rapier or a dagger, then pray he never needs to use it.
| RasTenira |
Greetings
As other people have already proposed I would make him an Arcane Trickster.
The Arcane Trickster is properly one of the most interesting characters I have ever played. He should always have something to contribute with both in and out of combat. I use mostly touch and ray spells in combat which got the benefit of sneak attack, as you are a wizard vanish, invisibility ect should do the trick most of the times.
I would use a build like this.
Race should be elves, everything we get there is useful.
The stats are very useful for a ranged wizard
Low light vision: wonderful, helps with sneak attack in some conditions
Elven magic: +2 spell penetration, free spell penetration feat, we are using a lot of spells so this is a boon
3 levels of rogue – 3 lvl of wizard – Arcane Trickster
The rogue lvls: I would use the normal rogue as I find trapfinding to be a nice feature, but otherwise Thug, Sniper or cutpurse could be good alternatives. For the rogue talent I would recommend taking snipers eye form APG to sneak attack foes with concealment or the Surprise attack form core which is nice in combination with the divination school.
Wizard: I would use the divination subschool foresight from APG. The power to always act in the surprise round is very nice and Prescience gives you the power to roll a d20 as a free action, the result CAN be used anytime you would roll a d20, until your next turn. This is very nice as it helps to hit, saves, skill ect
Feats:
1- Weapon finesse
2- Street mage from (undefeatable arcane trickster) , if not allowed to use this pdf, take the trait magical knack (gives 3hd caster lvl, and 1d6 sneak attack if you are third level rogue and wizard)
3- Point blank shot
4- Precise shot
Other nice feat:
Improved initiative
Intensify spell
Nice traits:
Magical knack (if not allowed using undefeatable arcane trickster)
Gifted adept (on shocking grasp) this is very nice used with intensify spell and sneak attack
Reactionary: +2 initiative
Any trait which boost fortitude save
You have a lot of skill points which should be very useful out of combat, and your spells will be your main weapon in combat, and give you lots of options out of combat too.
0-lvl spells: Acid splash (decent with sneak attack), Mage hand, Detect magic
1-lvl: Shocking grasp (nice with sneak attack), Vanish, Ray of enfeeblement, Magic missile, mage armor/shield, Chill touch (sneak attack), Feather fall
2-lvl: Scorching ray (sneak attack), Invisibility, Alter self, Mirror image
3-lvl: Vampiric touch, fly, ray of exhaustion, haste, heroism
Just my 2 cents
| Tom S 820 |
“Halfling Wizard 5, Rogue 3. As a wizard he has specialized in the illusion school of magic. He wields a blowgun, uses poisons, and has just come into possession of two kick butt short swords called whisper and shadow. These are from the "Carnival of Tears" mod if you are familiar.
They are +1 cold iron longsword that when used in tandem grant two weapon fighting. They also are capable of casting silence and invisibility 3 times per day each. “
Fist I would swap 2 level of Wizard for Arcane Trickster. This swap should net him +1 Reflex +4 Skill points +1 sneak attack dice and Ranged legerdemain. Same BaB same Caster level same Hit points. Lose of 5th level Wizard Feat and 1 round of Extended Illusions.
Really need to look at the school that he did not take cause he an Illusionist. What did drop?
Melee is trap unless he can attack touch AC or have Quicken True Strikes. He need to stay out of it. Unless he is landing the Final blow. Low BaB, Low AC and Low HP Melee is poor spot for him. Range Touch + sneak attack is his goal. Party Buff is second roll.
As far as weapon look at like they are Eternal Wands of silence and invisibility that 3 times per day each that you can threaten with. Enhance them with +1 Defending, +4 Dancing +1 Spell storing, and +1 Pitfall Abilities and +3 hit and damage.
This does not mean that you have go in to melee and hit thing. But you can with you hit and one shot some thing.
Rang Touch is his friend he need to have Evocation or Conjuration. Scorching ray Plus sneak attack dice is really strong 4 D6 ray + 3d6 sneak attack + chance to Crittal and in 2 level it is two 4 D6 ray + 3d6 sneak attack + chance to Crittal. Also 1d3+ 3d6 sneak attack dice + chance to Crittal all day long.
Craft Wand and Wondrous item feat is his best friend maybe Lastly .Arms and Armor. Look at Extra Traits and improved Initiative. Look traits that add to caster level, concentration checks, Initiative, or Crafting Cheaper. Wands, Pearls, STAT Item , Cloaks of Resistance, Bracer of Defense, Amulet of Natural armor, Boots and cloaks of Elven kind is what he want and he should be able A find them or craft them
DEX CON INT Items
Stay a way form Point Blank and Precise Shot If that are in Melee look for new target or buff. Or wait till your party member can 5 foot step to make hole to shoot. Plus you should be attack Touch AC witch should be lower than regular AC by at lest 5 or more.
The Plus +1 to hit from Point Blank you trade for Craft Wondrous items and 2 K for Equal swap. +1 damage for +1 Initiative + 1 AC +1 Reflex Save + 1 to 6 DEX based Skills that at least 4 of which should be on his Character. Way better trade.
Craft Wand for Precise shot. Well the feat takes -4 away not bad but with good planning as a group it not there any way. Plus always have tons of spell. Stay to Range touch, or auto hit, Buff, utility type spells the wands. Put save DC type Spell on your prepared spell list.
Quicken Spell enough said… Well
Quicken True Strike, Scorching ray, Vanish, If build is done right at 16 level you can throw Quick Scorching Ray and Regular Scorching Ray for +9 hit BAB +5 DEX +1 size for +15 at least vs Touch AC for 6 attack for 4d6 fire Plus 7d6 Sneak Attack dice. That 66d6 if All Attack hit plus 6 Critical chances. If you get the Drop and go first. Plus an other 3 shots if you go in the suspired round. (do not give up on stealth skill)
w0nkothesane
|
Strength 10(starts 12 -2 for race)
Dex 18 (starts 14 +2 race +1 at level 4 + 1 at level 8)
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 18 (starts 16 +2 race)
I also suggest Sandman Bard, but I think you can get more out of the points given. As a bard, you really don't need 18 charisma. If you're going to focus on rogue type skills I'd recommend a higher Int, and if you want to fight in melee I'd go with better Con. Using 20 point buy:
Str 10(starts 12 -2 for race)
Dex 18 (starts 14+2 race, +1 at level 4, +1 at level 8)
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 16 (starts 14+2 race)
You could go Rogue 1/Sandman Bard 5/Arcane Trickster 2, but that would mean a significantly lower BAB, so I'd recommend just staying straight Sandman Bard.
It really plays like a rogue/caster, but works so much better it's not even funny. You lose a lot of the offense in your spells, but you gain full caster level, better BAB, more skill ranks, and the bard spell list has some really great buffs.
If using bows instead of melee is a possibility, you could switch the stats around a bit and come out with something like so:
Str 14(starts 15 -2 for race, +1 at level 8)
Dex 18 (starts 15+2 race, +1 at level 4)
Con 11
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16 (starts 14+2 race)
With this build you take the standard archery feats and become a fairly solid archer with a strength bow, use spells to be a great buffer, you have a rogue's skills, and some sneak attack for those opening rounds, though it's not so much that you want or need to go out of your way to get it with every shot.
calagnar
|
So meny good charters so little time. Wizard Rogue is one of the most verstal charters out there. They can in effect cover two jobs at the same time. Wizard 18 Rogue 2 any higher in rogue is worthless. If you want more rogue then Wizard. Don't play a Wizard Rogue take the rogue talents as a rogue. Yes you need 3 levels to play a arcane trickster not worth it. Becous you are a wizard first that can do the rogues job. The advantage of being a higher level wizard are greater.
Bigest mastakes made.
1. Wizard Rogues: They are Wizards first. They can do the job of a skill monkey
2. There combat focus is spells. Not melee not Range this is where 90% of them get in trouble.
3. You do not need Dex as a Wizrogue. INT followed by CON are the important stats. Int becous thats your casting stat. Con becous your a low hp base and it will help you the most.
4. Pick a arch type and make it work. Don't go with a prestage class becous you think its cool. 70% of the time prestage classes are weaker. Then what a skilled min/maxer can do with the base classes.
Wizrogue note :
Illusion school is not worth it if your going Arcane Trickster. There ability over lap way to much. So you gane no real advantage.
Universalist school is better. This alows you to be a much better caster over all.
Wizard 18 Rogue 2 > Wizard 8 Rogue 3 Arcane Trickster 10
Wizard 18 Rogue 2 > Wizard 5 Rogue 5 Arcane Trickster 10
Wizard 18 Rogue 2 > Wizard 3 Rogue 8 Arcane Trickster 10
This is what I wold do.
Using a 20 point buy: Halfling Wizard 6 Rogue 2
Str 10-2race = 8
Dex 12+2race = 14
Con 14
Int 17+2(level4,8)= 19
Wis 10
Cha 10+2race = 12
Feets
Spell Focus Transmutation / Necromancy / Evocation pick one and stick with it
Greater Spell Focus Transmutation / Necromancy / Evocation
Intensified Spell
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
| CunningMongoose |
One build I enjoyed is one made to control the battlefield, and add the sneak attack damage as a bonus on ray spells.
Go with diviner, for the initiative bonus, and use True Strike and a metamagic rod of quicken (lesser) in order to get those sneak attacks to land. Go to arcane trickster ASAP and use a lot of ray spells. Don't forget you can add your sneak attack damage to any ray that deal any kind of dammage (including ability damage) and that rays are ranged touch attacks.
Pick up Solid Fog - now you are in control of the battlefield with those rays. Take slow reaction as a rogue talent in order to help your team move around. Get as many way as possible to mass deny dexterity bonus to AC (grease, etc) and try to not affect your team if possible (the Selective Spell feat, from the AGP, is great for that.)
| Dire Mongoose |
Yes you need 3 levels to play a arcane trickster not worth it.
Disagree. If you're going to set fire to two caster levels, you might as well make it three and get something for it.
That being said, anyone who builds Arcane Trickster with visions of devastating spell sneak attacks dancing like sugarplums in their head has probably fallen into a trap. Not that they can't do that, but dealing damage is never going to be a strong point for the character overall -- what it's really good for is solving nearly every manner of non-combat problem. It can neatly step up to almost all the non-combat functions of the rogue and wizard alike. Not bad. Assuming you like to play that kind of character, and I do.
| Benicio Del Espada |
That being said, anyone who builds Arcane Trickster with visions of devastating spell sneak attacks dancing like sugarplums in their head has probably fallen into a trap. Not that they can't do that, but dealing damage is never going to be a strong point for the character overall
Adding sneak attack to spells is a lot of fun. At high levels, it can be brutal. You are right, though, that it's situational; you can't count on it. I posted elsewhere on here about an AT doing over 650 hp damage to a BBEG in one round. He was 20th level, though!
-- what it's really good for is solving nearly every manner of non-combat problem. It can neatly step up to almost all the non-combat functions of the rogue and wizard alike. Not bad. Assuming you like to play that kind of character, and I do.
This is where they shine. I count only 4 skills that aren't class skills for this character. Since INT is your main stat, you'll have as many or more skill points than most rogues of your level. How you allocate your skills depends a lot on what other characters are in the party. Same goes with your spell selection. If you have another wizard, you can let him do the "god" spells and use your magic for sniping and buffs.
As someone mentioned above, see if your GM will allow the "street mage" feat from undeFEATable. The pdf is a couple bucks right here at Paizo. It's that good.