Does anyone else think the game is just fine if you actually play by the rules?
Yes. I don't play exactly RAW because certain parts of the game don't fit my interpretation of D&D or the style of fantasy game I like to run (channeling and unlimited cantrips for instance), but yes.
I didn't see this thread until now. I'm not going to be bothered to read the intervening four pages of posts :) but, yes, I feel the game is (mostly) just fine the way it is. There are always little tweaks and interpretations to make at the table but I don't find any fundamental flaws in Pathfinder that prevent me and my group from having fun with it every week.
M
I fear he is really, earnestly sure he punishes you ignoring you because you can no longer draw from the Source of True Wisdom TM (AKA: your game do not suck? FOLLOW MY GUIDELINES!).
Yeh, that's the vibe I'm getting as well, since he's dictating what he thinks matters as if the rest of us are simply beneath him. AC always matters, and it's sad he thinks that characters other people enjoy playing aren't "viable" because they don't meet his absurd mechanical ideas.
Makes you wonder if caster/caster/caster/caster party started at level one...as any (or all) of them could be one-shotted by a level appropriate encounter till level 3 or 4.11 HP/11 HP/10 HP/10 HP.
Vs... what?
13 HP/11 HP/11 HP/10 HP? Which is what you get with Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard? And that amounts to a whopping 3 HP higher, collectively?
No, you still randomly drop dead all the time.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LuckBasedMission
So, you guys spent money on raise dead alot then?
And you kind of just shot down your own "caster uber alles" arguments.And you promised me you would greasemonkey me.
Makes you wonder if caster/caster/caster/caster party started at level one...as any (or all) of them could be one-shotted by a level appropriate encounter till level 3 or 4.11 HP/11 HP/10 HP/10 HP.
Vs... what?
13 HP/11 HP/11 HP/10 HP? Which is what you get with Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard? And that amounts to a whopping 3 HP higher, collectively?
No, you still randomly drop dead all the time.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LuckBasedMission
Wow, I've never seen four first level casters with 10 hps. I've rarely seen any casters with 10 hp at first level.
That would have to be, for a wizard/sorcrer, 6hp (die), +1 hp (favored class), + toughness feat (+1), plus 14 Con. Not undoable, but, it means your burning a feat for it. Or, a 16 Con, which is unusual and you're taking away from other stats.
In my personal experience running PF, the starting HP tends to be around 8 for d6 classes, 10 for d8's, and 13 for D10 classes (and 15 for Barbs). However, all of those (save the Barb) can be one-shotted by a lucky hit by a goblin (1d6+1, crit, roll 6 on the die, 14 hps). It's just that a goblin can take out an 8hp character with two hits, on average. And, of course, a caster*4 party has a low average ac (unless the casters are all bards, clerics, or druids).
That's a real low dex for a 15-point game. I wouldn't do it, myself. AC and Ray attacks are worth a partial investment — but I suppose you're expecting this wizard to run solo, so he'd need the HP.
I'm not saying that rays are useless, but I'd prioritize them a distant third behind (all the stuff that INT gives you) and (Fort save and HP).
Something has to slide a bit to have the titanic casting stat, and it really is worth it. Honestly losing the dex bonus to initiative (even if it's just a piont or two) hurts more to me than any of the rest of the dex stuff.
In a one caster party, everything's up to one person.
They don't go first, or they die, or whatever? Whole party is screwed. And with only one tank of spells instead of two, or three, or four you have no endurance to speak of. 2 fights in, the entire party will be calling for a rest because half the party is near dead and spells are gone. If they even get a choice in the matter.
That and there's still nothing stopping enemies from focusing their attacks on the single caster. Except that caster, themselves.
I understand you are talking about a style of play that you think makes sense. In my experience, this is not the case. My party has regularly pushed through up to a dozen encounters without rest at or above their party level — no I did not softball the encounters — because they use good tactics.
An all caster party might make the game easier, but it is not a hard-and-fast requirement for survival. That's poppycock.
I don't begrudge your search for the optimal party, I think it is interesting. But your analysis doesn't hold for my type of game; a style which I consider to be pretty and brutal and crunchy as games go. I just have more intagible variables I suppose.
Makes you wonder if caster/caster/caster/caster party started at level one...as any (or all) of them could be one-shotted by a level appropriate encounter till level 3 or 4.
I've done it more than a few times. It worked fine in 3.5, and everyone (but arcane casters especially) have a lot more HP in PF.
Sure, sometimes the goblin goes first and drops the wizard -- but he never kills the wizard. And you know what fixes dropped characters? Spells.
@CoDzilla:
There is no question that AC is no guarantee that you won't get hit. The game is practically designed around you taking pain from attacks every round. However, only the first iterative attack needs to have a good chance of hitting. The 2nd and 3rd attacks should have good chance to miss.
Math does not lie, right? So let's look at it: CR 10ish, attack: +20/+15/+10 damage: 2d6 + 10
AC: 20, expected damage taken from full attack = 39.1
AC: 30, expected damage taken from full attack = 15.3
...so: no doubt about it - you get hit, even with great AC. But you take only about a 40% of the damage on average. That's a huge difference.
That's a real low dex for a 15-point game. I wouldn't do it, myself. AC and Ray attacks are worth a partial investment — but I suppose you're expecting this wizard to run solo, so he'd need the HP.I'm not saying that rays are useless, but I'd prioritize them a distant third behind (all the stuff that INT gives you) and (Fort save and HP).
Something has to slide a bit to have the titanic casting stat, and it really is worth it. Honestly losing the dex bonus to initiative (even if it's just a piont or two) hurts more to me than any of the rest of the dex stuff.
I didn't mention it the first time, but yes, Dex to Init is very high value for a caster. I'm not saying high Int high Con doesn't work, but you are actually giving up some good stuff there.
I'm wary of analysis that says "x and Y are all that matter here" because my actual play experience is very varied. As a GM, I don't tailor encounters to defeat PC builds, but just running the encounters that cross my desk in Pathfinder APs* and Modules will inevitably expose weaknesses in even the most well-rounded characters.
I think comeuppance is unavoidable in any character, by design, and I rather like it that way.
* please note that this includes social and non-combat encounters, and things like knowledge skills, which are quite often undervalued in analysis on the boards.
low dex will kill you when you face a reflex save or die effect, and an all caster group will struggle to hell against a golem or dragon...
It won't kill you, it will just reduce your chances of escape. Even a high dex character rolls a 1 occasionally. Usually anyone who reaches levels where they are facing SoD spells (or SoS spells) has items that helps cover their weak sides to some degree. If they don't, well then maybe Darwin will be proven right once again.
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Name the spell and I'll show you the limitation.I was going to suggest Simulacrum, but I suspect you'll come up with some extremely feeble reason why paying 11,000 gp for a pet solar is not worth it and I'll just get sucked into a pointless debate. So never mind.
Simlacrum is a really good spell. It should be, it is 7th level so at minimum you must be 13th level to cast it.
If you could make a solar, that would be awesome. But you can't.You could make a half power solar (it has 22 HD).
It can't level and it costs 100 gp a hit point to heal it after a 24 hour process. It has no equiptment you don't give it. So if the solar is CR 20, this would be a CR 10?
So less useful than leadership but costing about 8 percent of your WBL before you equip it and it doesn't level and costs a lot to heal.
Sounds balanced to me.
low dex will kill you when you face a reflex save or die effect, and an all caster group will struggle to hell against a golem or dragon...
Golems: You know there's a large number (too many, really) of spells that disallow SR, which golems aren't immune to, right?
Dragons: Not really moreso than any other group.
Finally, let me know where in the game is a reflex save or die effect. (If you think there's effectively one because it does a large amount of elemental damage, you're incorrect.)
@codzilla
+5 to hit
How will that all caster party get past level 2 with a flaming axe beak skelton and it has reach so you cannot get away. +8 inititive and doing a lot of damage. and then taking automatic damage from the fire.
Simlacrum is a really good spell. It should be, it is 7th level so at minimum you must be 13th level to cast it.If you could make a solar, that would be awesome. But you can't.You could make a half power solar (it has 22 HD).
It can't level and it costs 100 gp a hit point to heal it after a 24 hour process. It has no equiptment you don't give it. So if the solar is CR 20, this would be a CR 10?
So less useful than leadership but costing about 8 percent of your WBL before you equip it and it doesn't level and costs a lot to heal.
Sounds balanced to me.
So all the free wishes and resurrections and permanencies you want are worth 11,000 gp? Huh.
(Damn! I was sure I could resist getting suckered in...)
@codzilla
+5 to hit
How will that all caster party get past level 2 with a flaming axe beak skelton and it has reach so you cannot get away. +8 inititive and doing a lot of damage. and then taking automatic damage from the fire.
Depends on the circumstances.
Probably the druid's animal companion or cleric can tank it pretty well. Failing that, it doesn't really have a reflex save to speak of -- it's chances of making one save vs. Grease or Entangle are poor, much less three.
After that a whole lot of Disrupt Undead or even Ray of Frost will put it down fast. There are other options but that consumes minimal resources and pretty much works.
oh so you dont think a charisma check is required just because you say so and not because the spell specifically states that it does. You need one to make the monster not eat your companions, he attacked and is hungry. You guys are yummy, you may charm him to you, but your companions still look yummy (me and other posters have pointed this out countless times now) so you need a charisma check.
I think he doesn't have to make a charisma check because pariah dog was saying the only thing he was using the spell for was to keep HIMSELF from being eaten, which he stated and you ignored, so I spoke up. However
Please tell me what motion a medium sized creature can make in pantomiming in less than 6 seconds (a rounds time) against a Gargantuan 3 intelligence worm to make it not want to eat your tasty looking fighter friend right in front of you.
Are you serious? Place you hand in front of your chest with the back of your hand facing the purple worm. Now push your hand away from you body. Repeat once more. This takes less the 3 seconds.
Like this: http://protos.dk/public/pictures/forumgfx/go_away_noob.jpg
You want to knock experience points because running away doesn't grant you as much?
No I want to knock exp because it doesn't work. Because it's a retarded concept that should be left to diablo and world of warcraft.
BOO HOO, that's the game man. There are a plethora of ways to gain experience points, traps, storms, diplomacy, roleplaying, creatures, running, and killing.They all carry different values of experience. If it was more difficult for you to run away from something and not kill it than it was to kill it I would undoubtedly award you more experience for that. overcoming difficulties is how you get experience, if something isn't difficult why the heck would you gain Experience (new knowledge that helps you in the future) for it? if you already knew the perfect way to handle a situation that doesnt give you experience, thats another day in the office.
The CR system doesn't work, its a vague approximation at best. Since D&D/Pathfinder is a co-operative storytelling game that means the experience system should promote making good stories. It doesn't. However accomplishment based experience does.
No one tried to kill it. The scenario that was presented was "A wild purple worm appears, what do you do?" as if this was a random encounter out of Dragon Quest. Pariah Dog's answer was that he tell's his team mates "I got this" and then he and his buddies go about their merry way. I really don't see why he should have to constantly suffer these unlikely stipulations that you keep adding. Like putting his party in harms way unnecessarily.
I don't think the party should be given experience for killing it or for running away regardless of how difficult it is. That just exacerbates the problem. If we encountered this purple worm on the way to save a princess then we should be given experience for saving the princess not for every little thing we do on our quest. The challenge is "rescue the princess" not "kill the purple worm". And until we have succeeded in that task (or failed) everything we come across is merely one part of a greater challenge.
To get away from the the devolution to another caster vs martial argument. No, the game is missing some things to make it just fine the way it is.
The "fixes" to MAD characters was not applied to all the base classes, see monk.
The game has no mechanical system in place for mass combat/dramatics (pleading your case, an extended session of sonnets to woo the baron's daughter, etc) without either compressing it to one skill roll or having a person make so many that the law of averages says they will fail at some point. Neither is really good and places the burden of extrapolating rules on the group playing (ie house ruling).
Is it a good game? You bet!
Do I enjoy it? And how!
Is it flawless and not needing clarification or some additional extrapolations? No it is not.
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Abundant Step.It even has will negates in the spell.Have you read the section of the rules about saving throws?
Displacement's save is: Will negates (harmless).
In other words, displacement is a buff spell and usually you'll waive your right to a save, but technically if someone was casting it on you and you really didn't want it, you could attempt a Will save.
(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires
What about it? It is a move action (rather than standard like dimension door) supernatural ability that let's you move between spaces LIKE dimension door. It is not dimension door, and cannot be used to bring others. However since it is a move action you can use it and attack in the same round.
They don't though, because it's mechanics that makes things work, and not your personal feelings about them.
If I enjoy playing a sword and board fighter and boosting the AC you think is so worthless, then the character works, regardless of how often i get hit or auto-killed or anything else.
Is it a good game? You bet!Do I enjoy it? And how!
Is it flawless and not needing clarification or some additional extrapolations? No it is not.
+1
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What about it? It is a move action (rather than standard like dimension door) supernatural ability that let's you move between spaces LIKE dimension door. It is not dimension door, and cannot be used to bring others. However since it is a move action you can use it and attack in the same round.Abundant Step.It even has will negates in the spell.Have you read the section of the rules about saving throws?
Displacement's save is: Will negates (harmless).
In other words, displacement is a buff spell and usually you'll waive your right to a save, but technically if someone was casting it on you and you really didn't want it, you could attempt a Will save.
(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires
This is very wrong. Read the spell.
Don't forget that you can get 3 hp from a toad familiar.
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Simlacrum is a really good spell. It should be, it is 7th level so at minimum you must be 13th level to cast it.If you could make a solar, that would be awesome. But you can't.You could make a half power solar (it has 22 HD).
It can't level and it costs 100 gp a hit point to heal it after a 24 hour process. It has no equiptment you don't give it. So if the solar is CR 20, this would be a CR 10?
So less useful than leadership but costing about 8 percent of your WBL before you equip it and it doesn't level and costs a lot to heal.
Sounds balanced to me.
So all the free wishes and resurrections and permanencies you want are worth 11,000 gp? Huh.
(Damn! I was sure I could resist getting suckered in...)
Half caster level and special abilities. Read the spell. Pg 343 of core.
You would have to build it with the angelic template and only with spells it would have access to at half it's level.
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This is very wrong. Read the spell.What about it? It is a move action (rather than standard like dimension door) supernatural ability that let's you move between spaces LIKE dimension door. It is not dimension door, and cannot be used to bring others. However since it is a move action you can use it and attack in the same round.Abundant Step.It even has will negates in the spell.Have you read the section of the rules about saving throws?
Displacement's save is: Will negates (harmless).
In other words, displacement is a buff spell and usually you'll waive your right to a save, but technically if someone was casting it on you and you really didn't want it, you could attempt a Will save.
(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires
No, read the supernatural ability.
It isn't dimension door, it is a supernatural ability that allows you to move between spaces LIKE dimension door.
Dimension door is a standard action, abundent step is a move action. Dimension door allows you to bring others, abundant step does not.
Dimension door does not allow other actions. Given they made it a move rather than standard action or full round action, abundant step does not share this limitation.
Is anyone with me in the "If you read the rules and play by them the game works great" camp?
... but "great" is not enough!
and there are meddler like me who enjoy reinventing the wheel because its just as fun as playing with the wheel itself...
'findel
Half caster level and special abilities. Read the spell. Pg 343 of core.You would have to build it with the angelic template and only with spells it would have access to at half it's level.
Correct. However I will point out that its very difficult to arbitrate this spell as a DM. Many creatures gain spell like abilities well before the level that a player gets them. See genies and wish. I wish they would clarify a bit. For example if I create a bearded devil does it loose greater teleport at will even though it wasn't high enough level for that in the first place? Or does it remain because ALL devils get that.
... but "great" is not enough!and there are meddler like me who enjoy reinventing the wheel because its just as fun as playing with the wheel itself...
My thoughts exactly!
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Half caster level and special abilities. Read the spell. Pg 343 of core.You would have to build it with the angelic template and only with spells it would have access to at half it's level.
Correct. However I will point out that its very difficult to arbitrate this spell as a DM. Many creatures gain spell like abilities well before the level that a player gets them. See genies and wish. I wish they would clarify a bit. For example if I create a bearded devil does it loose greater teleport at will even though it wasn't high enough level for that in the first place? Or does it remain because ALL devils get that.
Fair point, it does need clarification and I will FAQ this post.
As a DM I have always erred on the side of no for special abilities for spells higher than possible for the caster level.
If you do that, the spell isn't overpowered for it's level.
So all the free wishes and resurrections and permanencies you want are worth 11,000 gp? Huh.
(Damn! I was sure I could resist getting suckered in...)
Half caster level and special abilities. Read the spell. Pg 343 of core.
You would have to build it with the angelic template and only with spells it would have access to at half it's level.
There's nothing in the rules that says an 11 HD creature can't use Wish. In fact, there's a counter-example since a 10 HD efreeti can use Wish.
Now, if you wanted to fill a gap in the rules, that's a perfectly reasonable ruling for the GM to make...
Fair point, it does need clarification and I will FAQ this post.As a DM I have always erred on the side of no for special abilities for spells higher than possible for the caster level.
If you do that, the spell isn't overpowered for it's level.
I agree. It just works better that way.
Personally I think a much easier way to handle this spell is to just say that you can create clones of creatures up to your level/CR -2 or -3 or whatever is appropriate (no half HD/caster lvl). The spell would be just as good as it is now and you wouldn't have to use convoluted formula's.
Dimension door is a standard action, abundent step is a move action. Dimension door allows you to bring others, abundant step does not.
Dimension door does not allow other actions. Given they made it a move rather than standard action or full round action, abundant step does not share this limitation.
And the abundant step text doesn't say it doesn't have that drawback.
I think it should, but it doesn't.
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Dimension door is a standard action, abundent step is a move action. Dimension door allows you to bring others, abundant step does not.
Dimension door does not allow other actions. Given they made it a move rather than standard action or full round action, abundant step does not share this limitation.
And the abundant step text doesn't say it doesn't have that drawback.
I think it should, but it doesn't.
What other reason would you change it from a standard to a move action? If you can't use a standard action, there is no reason for this change.
We can faq, but it isn't dimension door, it only uses dimension door for the distances and saves.
This is very wrong. Read the spell.What about it? It is a move action (rather than standard like dimension door) supernatural ability that let's you move between spaces LIKE dimension door. It is not dimension door, and cannot be used to bring others. However since it is a move action you can use it and attack in the same round.Abundant Step.It even has will negates in the spell.Have you read the section of the rules about saving throws?
Displacement's save is: Will negates (harmless).
In other words, displacement is a buff spell and usually you'll waive your right to a save, but technically if someone was casting it on you and you really didn't want it, you could attempt a Will save.
(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires
No, read the supernatural ability.
It isn't dimension door, it is a supernatural ability that allows you to move between spaces LIKE dimension door.
Dimension door is a standard action, abundent step is a move action. Dimension door allows you to bring others, abundant step does not.
Dimension door does not allow other actions. Given they made it a move rather than standard action or full round action, abundant step does not share this limitation.
It works just like the spell except for the activation time, and you can;t bring anyone with you. That means it must follow the spells other rules which limit an attack. Even a quickened dimension door(uses a swift action) can not be used to attack. I think someone posted a link to a developer commenting on this a while ago. I will try to find it, if it is needed.
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I keep reading thread after thread about "The Problems" and "Gaps" but I find that whenever I have though something overpowered, I read the rule and realized I missed a limitation, or I watch it in game and realize it doesn't actually work as well on the board as it does on the page.
I don't think the problem is with a specific class or Pathfinder per se. I think the issue (I have) is with d20 gaming and open ended design. Here is one issue (of a few).
I will lay this out as easy as possible and ask that people try to maintain an open mind before dropping any bombs.
The fundamental problem with casters in 3.5 gaming is spell effect vs save paradigm is unsound. So here it is:
Spell: DC 10 + spell level + caster modifier (scales) + other modifiers (scales - limited)
The problem with the system is ability to manipulate a very powerful core mechanic - the save system.
So let's make a few comparisons. These do not need to be perceived as PC vs. PC, I am putting them here to just illustrate some issues. Either one can be an NPC or one could be the PC vs. an NPC.
Level 1 wizard vs. level 1 fighter
So let’s plug those numbers in again.
Spell: DC 10 + 1(SL - 1st level spell) + 4(Caster mod +4 Int modifer) = 15
Let's check the fighters saves:
If it's a fort save he gets a base +2, and probably another +2 for con bonus. So a total of +4. That gives him a little less than a 50%/50% chance of saving vs. the effect of the spell - on his best save.
Now if it's a Reflex save the fighter may be getting another +1, now he has to roll a 14 or higher
If it's a Will save the fighter gets no bonus and probably has no wisdom modifier. So he is at a flat +0, he needs to roll a 15 or higher.
A wizard at this level has 4 spells that he can cast (2 +1 for mod, +1 for specialist) that follow this save pattern.
Change everything to 3rd level and it actually gets worse.
3rd level wizard vs. 3rd level fighter (same stats as above)
Fighters saves
Fort save - base +3, +2 Con = +5. So he needs to roll a 12 or higher - less than 50%/50% on his best save.
Reflex save - base +1, +1 for Dex = +2. Needs to roll a 15 or higher
Will save - +1, no other mods = +1. Needs to roll a 16 or higher.
A wizard at this level has 3 spells that he can cast (1 +1 for mod, +1 for specialist) that follow this save pattern.
Casters gain temporary manipulation of their values, while other classes can invest in feats and items in an effort to catch up , which in fact they never do.
Casters have one stat they need to worry about (and inflate) to affect all their casting ability while non-casters need to worry about multiple stats just to stay viable.
As you get higher level you get permanent and temp stat boosters (which stack) so the problem gets worse. In effect - casters can double dip with a perm item and then add bonuses via spells.
Abundant step is intended to either be a quick travel ability outside of combat (in which case not being able to do something in the same round after the abundant step doesn't matter), but also to let the monk do a standard action and then vanish. He could punch the dragon in the eye and then teleport away, leaving the angry dragon with no monk to breathe fire on, for example.A monk's "abundant step" ability allows the monk (and only the monk) to use a move action to gain the equivalent of a dimension door spell.
The spell itself states that: "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn."
Is this supposed to apply to the monk as well? What is the purpose of making it a move action if the monk cannot follow up with "something cool"?
There you go.
edit:Chris is wise I see or maybe he already saw this post.
In a one caster party, everything's up to one person.
They don't go first, or they die, or whatever? Whole party is screwed. And with only one tank of spells instead of two, or three, or four you have no endurance to speak of. 2 fights in, the entire party will be calling for a rest because half the party is near dead and spells are gone. If they even get a choice in the matter.
That and there's still nothing stopping enemies from focusing their attacks on the single caster. Except that caster, themselves.
I understand you are talking about a style of play that you think makes sense. In my experience, this is not the case. My party has regularly pushed through up to a dozen encounters without rest at or above their party level — no I did not softball the encounters — because they use good tactics.
An all caster party might make the game easier, but it is not a hard-and-fast requirement for survival. That's poppycock.
I don't begrudge your search for the optimal party, I think it is interesting. But your analysis doesn't hold for my type of game; a style which I consider to be pretty and brutal and crunchy as games go. I just have more intagible variables I suppose.
Evil Lincoln, I'm contantly and pleasantly surprised by your tact when dealing with aggressive and demeaning folks on these boards. +1 to you.
Cod, I think your points would go over a LOT better with many of us if you weren't so bloody aggressive with everything you say. You're right and we're retarded for thinking anything else is all I'm really getting here... can you soften yourself up a bit and remember there are people on the other end of the internet?
Civility is good for all of us!
Simlacrum is a really good spell. It should be, it is 7th level so at minimum you must be 13th level to cast it.If you could make a solar, that would be awesome. But you can't.You could make a half power solar (it has 22 HD).
It can't level and it costs 100 gp a hit point to heal it after a 24 hour process. It has no equiptment you don't give it. So if the solar is CR 20, this would be a CR 10?
So less useful than leadership but costing about 8 percent of your WBL before you equip it and it doesn't level and costs a lot to heal.
Sounds balanced to me.
So all the free wishes and resurrections and permanencies you want are worth 11,000 gp? Huh.
(Damn! I was sure I could resist getting suckered in...)
lol I know me too.
Good to see you, Hogarth.