Quick question: PC is suffering from drow poison and has delay poison cast upon them. By my calculations, it is going to wear off during resting. Is this going to affect the 8 hours of rest to recharge spells?
Fighting off the poison should count as an interruption, so he has to rest for an extra hour. If he fails his second save, the 2d4 hours of poisoned unconsciousness don't count as restful sleep.
Makes sense. Thank you very much for the replies.
|
Fighting off the poison should count as an interruption, so he has to rest for an extra hour. If he fails his second save, the 2d4 hours of poisoned unconsciousness don't count as restful sleep.Is there a specific rule that states that poison or magically induced sleep/unconsciousness doesnt count as rest? Just wondering.
The wizard must sleep (p. 218) and must refrain from demanding physical tasks, in which I would certainly include going through the effects of poison. Magically induced sleep probably counts, provided that the wizard is in a reasonably comfortable position.
In this case, I doubt drow poison gives you pleasant dreams.
Fighting off the poison should count as an interruption, so he has to rest for an extra hour. If he fails his second save, the 2d4 hours of poisoned unconsciousness don't count as restful sleep.Is there a specific rule that states that poison or magically induced sleep/unconsciousness doesnt count as rest? Just wondering.
Does being forcefully subjected to a state that is intended to be harmful to you sound like helpful "rest"? I mean I see what you are saying, but the end result is, it is an attack and it is not helpful in its purpose. Rest means multiple things, rest for gaining spells is stated to required as purposeful downtime, you make a decision to do it and if it is interrupted it must be extended. Just because the terms are the same, the stated intent is vastly different.
|
|
In this case, I doubt drow poison gives you pleasant dreams.Basically I would see it as a sedative, which renders the subject unconscious. I see no reason why it would not count as rest. Yes it is a forced induced rest, but rest none the less. Kind of like slipping someone a drink with a bunch of Valium. It would cause a chemically induced sleep/unconsciousness in the drinker. But im pretty sure they would feel very rested once they woke up.
It's not Valium. It's the hunting poison of a chaotic evil spider-demon-worshipping clique of twisted fey. Spending time under drow poison should be a horror in itself.
|
It's not Valium. It's the hunting poison of a chaotic evil spider-demon-worshipping clique of twisted fey. Spending time under drow poison should be a horror in itself.In this case, I doubt drow poison gives you pleasant dreams.Basically I would see it as a sedative, which renders the subject unconscious. I see no reason why it would not count as rest. Yes it is a forced induced rest, but rest none the less. Kind of like slipping someone a drink with a bunch of Valium. It would cause a chemically induced sleep/unconsciousness in the drinker. But im pretty sure they would feel very rested once they woke up.
However, as our resident experts will attest, there is no wording in the text that indicates such heightened trauma, as some are suggesting here. Does the bear who was attacked by a tranquilizer suffer fitful dreams? No, it wakes up feeling like a million bucks, if a little groggy. Sounds like some want to add something that isn't there as arbitrary punishment...
|
|
Sounds like some want to add something that isn't there as arbitrary punishment...
The wizard got poisoned and the party have done nothing to help him. Instead, they're relying on metagame knowledge that it won't cause any lasting reduction in his game effectiveness. It's not arbitrary if they deserve to be punished.
Sounds like some want to add something that isn't there as arbitrary punishment...The wizard got poisoned and the party have done nothing to help him. Instead, they're relying on metagame knowledge that it won't cause any lasting reduction in his game effectiveness. It's not arbitrary if they deserve to be punished.
As there is nothing that states drow poison to be more than a hyper effective tranquilizer, a party who has come across drow poison before and has some idea of what it does is not relying on metagame knowledge. And unless the DM made it clear the first couple times that there were nasty side effects, they would be well within their rights to expect the wizard to be fully rested when he wakes up, since without DM intervention, the only thing they have to go on is the description of the poison itself, which says nothing of causing the rest to be uncomfortable.
|
|
Sounds like some want to add something that isn't there as arbitrary punishment...The wizard got poisoned and the party have done nothing to help him. Instead, they're relying on metagame knowledge that it won't cause any lasting reduction in his game effectiveness. It's not arbitrary if they deserve to be punished.
Deserve to be punished? Really? My statement holds true in this case it seems...
|
|
As there is nothing that states drow poison to be more than a hyper effective tranquilizer, a party who has come across drow poison before and has some idea of what it does is not relying on metagame knowledge. And unless the DM made it clear the first couple times that there were nasty side effects, they would be well within their rights to expect the wizard to be fully rested when he wakes up, since without DM intervention, the only thing they have to go on is the description of the poison itself, which says nothing of causing the rest to be uncomfortable.Sounds like some want to add something that isn't there as arbitrary punishment...The wizard got poisoned and the party have done nothing to help him. Instead, they're relying on metagame knowledge that it won't cause any lasting reduction in his game effectiveness. It's not arbitrary if they deserve to be punished.
The description of the poison says that it causes unconsciousness, not sleep. I agree that the GM should have made that clear if they encountered drow poison before. They have no rights to assume that the wizard can count that period as sleep (and they could have asked).
|
|
Deserve to be punished? Really? My statement holds true in this case it seems...Sounds like some want to add something that isn't there as arbitrary punishment...The wizard got poisoned and the party have done nothing to help him. Instead, they're relying on metagame knowledge that it won't cause any lasting reduction in his game effectiveness. It's not arbitrary if they deserve to be punished.
If it sounds better, they took a calculated risk. Sometimes risks don't pay off.
|
|
If it sounds better, they took a calculated risk. Sometimes risks don't pay off.Deserve to be punished? Really? My statement holds true in this case it seems...Sounds like some want to add something that isn't there as arbitrary punishment...The wizard got poisoned and the party have done nothing to help him. Instead, they're relying on metagame knowledge that it won't cause any lasting reduction in his game effectiveness. It's not arbitrary if they deserve to be punished.
Unconsciousness, long term is the same as sleep. Hence the reference to taking a nap when someone knocks you out. The in game difference if any, is that you can wake a sleeping person through normal means. Waking an unconscious person takes a little effort, especially if the chemical (poison is a chemical compound by the way...) is still circulating.
It still sounds like someone is trying to purposefully railroad the PC's...
Either the PCs have encountered drow poison before and have in-character knowledge that the stuff is innocuous or they haven't and the players are metagaming. If they're not metagaming there's no reason to mess with them. Let the wizard have his roofie. Maybe when he wakes up he'll find someone's shaved off his eyebrows. If they are metagaming, it's because the PCs haven't encountered this before but the players have. Fine. Fair game.
In that case, go ahead and teach the players a lesson about metagaming. Let the wizard make a Fort save in the middle of the night or he becomes permanently paralyzed. Wakes up and just can't move. Sounds like someone needs remove curse.
So what I don't get is why the dinking around with "is it rest or isn't it". If you're trying to demonstrate consequence to metagaming, do. Shrug.
I'm curisous as to how the players are metagaming.
If you, as a DM, say 'You got hit by Drow Poison, save' then they know if they fail the save, they're taking an obligatory nap if they've read the posion section of the core rules. In this case, why did the DM tell them the name of the poison?
Were the enemies they were fighting drow? If so, maybe some knowledge rolls would let them know about common drow poisons and their effects.
Or maybe, someone with Alchemy/Poison based skills could have examined the poison?
But, if you don't want the PC's to use metagame knowledge, then don't tell them the name of the poison they are saving against. Hit them with the weapon, request a save, don't even tell them the DC. If they want to try to figure out what type of poison, then so be it... but unless there is a PC that is familiar with posions, you should never tell them 'you just got hit with a dose of Drow Poison, save'.
That said: I'd say that RAW, unconsciousness is equivalent to sleep for purposes of rest. I'd also say that a houserule saying that Drow Poison has your mind trapped in nightmares and that it doesn't count as rest is fine, too, but that's not RAW.
Has any DM ever responded "Sorry guys your characters arn't tired so cant get to sleep and recover their spells."
Yes, of course. You're allowed to get your spells back once per 24 hours. If we house-ruled otherwise, fine, but none of my groups ever have. So if the PCs blow their spells in the first hour then say "we rest", they get to kill the day, sleep through the night, and pick up adventuring the next day.
Basically I would see it as a sedative, which renders the subject unconscious. I see no reason why it would not count as rest. Yes it is a forced induced rest, but rest none the less. Kind of like slipping someone a drink with a bunch of Valium. It would cause a chemically induced sleep/unconsciousness in the drinker. But im pretty sure they would feel very rested once they woke up.
Nothing in the description of Drow poison does it state that it effects ones dreams either positively or negatively.
Also I may be wrong but I don't think wizards specifically need sleep. I believe it must just be uninterupted rest; sitting quitely, resting in a comfy chair, etc...
Edit: Ok check and in the PFC it states Sleep then clarifies that the wizard does not need to slumber the intire time but must refrain from most activities.
Alcohol can act as a sedative too, however, one doesn't always wake up "refreshed".
While the rules remain silent on this, I highly doubt that drow poison has a person's restfullness as a priority. I can quite easily see someone waking up from such a poison with quite the headache.
In the end, it comes up to the DM's call.
|
|
That said: I'd say that RAW, unconsciousness is equivalent to sleep for purposes of rest. I'd also say that a houserule saying that Drow Poison has your mind trapped in nightmares and that it doesn't count as rest is fine, too, but that's not RAW.
If you could point out where the Rule is Written, there will be no need for further argument. However, if the rules don't say that unconsciousness gives the benefits of sleep or rest, it's at best a GM call whether it does and I've suggested it shouldn't.
That said: I'd say that RAW, unconsciousness is equivalent to sleep for purposes of rest. I'd also say that a houserule saying that Drow Poison has your mind trapped in nightmares and that it doesn't count as rest is fine, too, but that's not RAW.If you could point out where the Rule is Written, there will be no need for further argument. However, if the rules don't say that unconsciousness gives the benefits of sleep or rest, it's at best a GM call whether it does and I've suggested it shouldn't.
Ok, how bout this. I'm stretching, a bit, granted.
If I knock someone to -1 hit points, they are unconscious. Even when Unconscious, characters recover hit points naturally if they have help. Recovering hit points naturally says you must sleep for 8 hours (uninterrupted) to regain hit points.
So, RAW, you must sleep to recover HP naturally, and RAW, being unconscious allows you to recover HP naturally. So, RAW, Sleeping and Unconscious are the same with regards to healing, as long as you've been stabilized.
Source: PRD, http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#healing
Now, the stretches are that in this case we aren't concerned with recovery of HP damage, just with whether or not being unconscious counts as 'rest' for a wizard. RAW, the Wizard doesn't actually have to sleep. RAW, the wizard must simply refrain from moving, talking, casting, or otherwise exerting effort. I'm fairly certain laying on the ground unconscious qualifies as rest in this case, when you see that unconscious can substitute for sleep while healing.
|
|
That said: I'd say that RAW, unconsciousness is equivalent to sleep for purposes of rest. I'd also say that a houserule saying that Drow Poison has your mind trapped in nightmares and that it doesn't count as rest is fine, too, but that's not RAW.If you could point out where the Rule is Written, there will be no need for further argument. However, if the rules don't say that unconsciousness gives the benefits of sleep or rest, it's at best a GM call whether it does and I've suggested it shouldn't.Ok, how bout this. I'm stretching, a bit, granted.
If I knock someone to -1 hit points, they are unconscious. Even when Unconscious, characters recover hit points naturally if they have help. Recovering hit points naturally says you must sleep for 8 hours (uninterrupted) to regain hit points.
I don't think the text there helps your cause. See also: Stable Characters and Recovery
You regain 1 hit point if you sleep for 8 hours, but this doesn't establish that you must sleep. You might regain hit points in other ways. Specifically, you regain hitpoints even while unconscious, which shows that unconsciousness is not equivalent to sleep but is a separate condition that needed its own rule.
Now, the stretches are that in this case we aren't concerned with recovery of HP damage, just with whether or not being unconscious counts as 'rest' for a wizard. RAW, the Wizard doesn't actually have to sleep.
I've already cited where the core rulebook requires the wizard to sleep, but if it's more convenient: Preparing Wizard Spells
Personally, I don't see any point in making drow poison even more annoying than it already is with knocking you out. It may not be the best night's sleep you ever had, but it would hardly be nightmares and horrible visions the whole time.
If the party doesn't want to spend resources to remove it and you think they are metagaming, than attack the party while the wizard is still sleeping, this deals with the more likely problem, and one combat where he completely helpless and at the complete mercy of how well the dice treat the party, since their tactics are going to be severely limited, should be enough to make the party respectful of the consequences of their actions in a way that affects the entire party, not just the one person unlucky enough to get hit with the poison.
I've already cited where the core rulebook requires the wizard to sleep, but if it's more convenient: Preparing Wizard Spells
We're looking at the same words, but seeing them differently.
Natural Healing: Requires 8 hours of sleep for 1 hp
Stable characters and recovery: You regain natural hp even if uncoscious.
These two statements clearly point out that you must have sleep to get HP, and a stable, Unconscious character also recovers HP.
As to the link above... it explicitly *doesn't* require the wizard to sleep. It requires 8 hours of basically motionless rest.