Soldiers don't always move at that pace.We sure do when moving in hostile areas of operations on 'patrolling tasks', slow deliberate movement - approx 1-2kmh depending on terrain. You CAN move faster, sure, but you are trading off SECURITY, however that isn't 'scouting'.
Which is why i specifically asked about your characters moving from town to town and you said that even then the party would be moving at half pace for you.
And at that point I think your argument has pretty much fallen over.
I think you're covering the bare spots in your argument with a patchwork of insults.
You are back to 'well if the monster wins all this and gets surprise andf gets all these attacks and the rogue is caught out..' can be invented for any class one cares to imagine.
Which is why i'm against putting ANY class out there on its own without support.
Its almost like you are being deliberately obtuse.
Convo over. The rogue supporters can't seem to back up their claims without resorting to this.
I've gone through various builds and can't find a single thing that rogues do better than everyone else. I understand that flavor wise this might be a popular concept for a class, I just don't see it working out mechanically.(They do mediocre damage, wizards are sneakier past about level 5, rangers are a better mix of the two). More interesting to me, the barbarian was fixed in the APG. While the rogue got new talents they really didn't add anything that dramatic (like a tree chain such as the barbarian totems).
I'm just curious. Seriously, does anyone have a way to make rogues useful?
If you still can't see how useful rogues are, in my group, I usually play a rogue. We've been playing the Kingmaker AP for several months now. My character has more skill points than the other four PC's combined.
The dwarf fighter/cleric gets 2 or 2 per level.
The half-elven sorceress gets 2 per level.
The elf druid/fighter gets 4 or 2 per level.
The dwarf barbarian gets 4 per level.
None of them has any bonus to Intelligence or has spent any additional points into skills or Intelligence.
So they average 11 points per level.
My Human rogue gets 9 points per level +1 per level for favored class +3 for having a 16 Intelligence.
I get 12 points per level.
I think that makes rogues pretty darn useful.
If you still can't see how useful rogues are, in my group, I usually play a rogue. We've been playing the Kingmaker AP for several months now. My character has more skill points than the other four PC's combined.
The dwarf fighter/cleric gets 2 or 2 per level.
The half-elven sorceress gets 2 per level.
The elf druid/fighter gets 4 or 2 per level.
The dwarf barbarian gets 4 per level.None of them has any bonus to Intelligence or has spent any additional points into skills or Intelligence.
So they average 11 points per level.
My Human rogue gets 9 points per level +1 per level for favored class +3 for having a 16 Intelligence.
I get 12 points per level.
I think that makes rogues pretty darn useful.
That whole party consists of fighters and barbarians (plus sorcerer)... of course only you have skills. If it had a Bard or a Ranger you would not be all that useful
Which is why i specifically asked about your characters moving from town to town and you said that even then the party would be moving at half pace for you.
Is it a tactical environment? if yes, then half pace. If no, then full pace.
Convo over. The rogue supporters can't seem to back up their claims without resorting to this.
It was over a long time ago, around the time I pointed out that you had to construct rarely occuring and specific instances relying on not only the rogue failing everything, but the enemies infallibly succeeding at everything in particularly idealised circumstances.
If the rogue COULD survive in such particularly nasty environment possible only through the most obvious GM Fiat or insanely lotto winning luck on behalf of the attackers the class would be terrible overpowered beyond belief.
So yeah its over.
You are correct, there is no way around your impossibly broken scenario stacked arbitrarily against the rogue and employed by a GM who is metagaming against his players.
Actually the fighter/cleric is mostly cleric now and the druid/fighter is mostly druid.
We had a ranger and a bard, they died.
The "mostly" fighters are a barbarian and a lion that the druid adopted from the ranger.
The party is more spell casters than fighters.
Plus, I'm keeping most everyone alive with my talent that stabilizes the dying!
My Human rogue gets 9 points per level +1 per level for favored class +3 for having a 16 Intelligence.
I get 12 points per level.
I think that makes rogues pretty darn useful.
Huge Int, should make for a very skilled guy!
Thanks CoDzilla, my math can get fuzzy after midnight.
Let me redo that;
9 + 1 + 3 = 13 skill points.
I guess that makes an Intelligent Rogue even better.
One should also check their character sheet before posting.;)
I'm not about to post any extended arguments again in the thread where they get erased, but I can notice, that by now I'm firmly convinced that people who insist that the rogue is OK, hate the class and everyone who dares to play it from the depths of their hearts. Why else anyone would want to see rogues killed over, and over, and over, and over again as a result of so-called "scouting"?
Actually in PF the rogue can easily use stealth at full speed without penalty, its a talent that's available as early as 2nd, 4th or 6th depending upon your priorities for talents. That's if you don't go with a racial boost and/or a trait that can help with this.
Except that no one seems to put it into a rogue build. You can either scout OR fight effectively but you can't do both until higher levels (at which point a crystal ball or ring of eyes will be doing a better scouting job than the rogue) Scouting is not so important that its worth effectively loosing a member over.
Unless you only want to scout under a celestial alignment of conditions you need darkvision. (until around 7th level where you can afford goggles of the night (assuming half your wbl in any one item), but even then you're taking a pretty hard hit to your power) This limits your choices and prevents the and situations (fight and get feats) that are being presented in the generalities.
The party is using stealth via distance, but as you said it is not a huge distance, just enough to give the rogue a good chance of finding the enemy before the enemy finds the party.
Everyone seems to have a different idea of what the "right" distance is, and when i use another posters example of the "right" distance i'm the one doing it wrong. 120 feet is three rounds of movement from a running fighter... thats a lot of time for something to go wrong. Edge of torchlight isn't doing much except keeping the party from walking into the middle of the ambush.
To BNW, if you don't like scouting, then don't do it. But I think that if you tried to do so that you could build a rogue that could scout well.
And if i built one that didn't scout well what would that prove?
For that you would want a very good stealth score, a good perception score, finding traps, an ability to move at full speed while using stealth and finding traps, and an ability to disengage when detected.
stealth, perception, fast traps, fast stealth, and acrobatics... its still hardly foolproof.
Now scent is great as it tells you that something is within 30' (modified by wind) but it doesn't tell you the square until you are within 5'.
which isn't a problem because once you know the direction it is VERY easy to get within 5 feet.
Likewise tremorsense and blindsense are great as they do tell you the square at distances greater than 5', but they don't allow you to see the hiding party so there's still a 50% miss chance.
Usually there isn't. once the creature is within 5 feet there is no cover or concealment between the squares and stealth auto fails.
There's that chance until the rogue does something (like shout for help or drop caltrops) once he does that the stealth is over as well.
In any event whether its a worthless rogue scouting and getting nailed instead of the whole party being put in the bad situation or a useful rogue actually scouting well both do the party a great deal of good.
They're not worth the opportunity cost of a real character in their place.
When was the last time you took a useless PC (which could be ANY class, as it is more dependent upon the player and their attitude) and made them actually strongly contribute to the party?
3.0- I had an illusion heavy bard that the DM shafted on equipment
3.0- My conjuration specialist would imbue his bat familiar with spells, and it could dimension door party members in trouble, unleash scorching rays and polymorph party members for healing.
3.5- I made a barbarian/dragon disciple (always considered a sub optimal class) who's mobility and reach made him a terror on the battlefield, and his weasel familiar who could act like a meat shield, communication device and flanker for the rogue.
So yes... I've really had it with the "you suck at this game if you can't make a vaguely defined concept work" arguments. Show me a rogue i shouldn't be replacing with a druid.
I'm not about to post any extended arguments again in the thread where they get erased, but I can notice, that by now I'm firmly convinced that people who insist that the rogue is OK, hate the class and everyone who dares to play it from the depths of their hearts. Why else anyone would want to see rogues killed over, and over, and over, and over again as a result of so-called "scouting"?
Hyperbole rocks! One day we all may end up playing in different campaigns yet still use the same set of rules. That day has yet to come according to the internet, but I can see it on the horizon.
This whole thread makes me face palm haha
The only rogues I've seen die from scouting are the ones who try engage the enemy instead of actually doing what a scout should do. I have done real scouting, not boy scouting, but real scouting in real combat situations. I was 11B (infantry) when I was in the Army. Scouts should very rarely engage the enemy. Their primary duty is to gather information. I served with a guy who did quite a bit of LRRP (Long Range Renaissance Patrol) when he was based in Italy. This is what he did: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Reconnaissance_Patrol[/url]. While the unit could engage the enemy, their primary mission was gathering intelligence. Rarely would they engage and that was only when engagement needed to happen immediately because the threat needed to be neutralized post haste.
I mentioned this earlier but it seems to have been forgotten. The job of a scout is not to engage the enemy. The job is to gather information. The information should follow the SALUTE acronym.
S: Size of the unit (how many creatures are there?)
A: Activity (what are they doing?)
L: Location (where are they?)
U: Uniform or unit (who/what are they?)
T: Time (when did you see them?)
E: Equipment (what do they have?)
The rogue, and a few other classes, can accomplish this easily. The first thing he needs to do is obviously increase his Stealth and Perception checks. There are plenty of ways to do this and it doesn’t have to take away from the rogue’s combat ability. Just like every other character, each choice you make means you didn’t make a different one but that doesn’t mean your character was diminished in ability.
To improve your scouting ability, invest in the following items:
1) The Shadow ability on your armor
2) Spyglass
3) wand of message (375 gold for 50 messages)
4) wand of invisibility
5) cloak of elvenkind (later upgrade to cloak of the bat if you can)
6) eyes of the eagle or lens of detection if you can track
7) boots of striding and springing
You should also consider the following feats (you can get as much as +10 to each skill):
1) Skill Focus (Stealth)
2) Skill Focus (Perception)
3) Skill Focus (Disable Device)
4) Alertness
5) Stealthy
6) Deft Hands
Besides the obvious skills, I would also recommend taking Linguistics when you have spare skill points. The additional languages you learn can really be useful for gathering information.
Rogue Talents that will help are:
1) Quick Disable
2) Trap Spotter
3) Fast Stealth
4) Minor Magic
5) Major Magic
Every race brings something useful for being a scout:
1) Dwarf: +1 Perception from Wisdom
2) Elf: +1 Stealth from Dexterity, +2 Perception
3) Gnome: +4 Stealth from size, +2 Perception
4) Half-Elf: +2 to stat of choice, +2 Perception
5) Half-Orc: +2 to stat of choice
6) Halfling: +1 Stealth from Dexterity, +2 Perception, +4 Stealth from size
7) Human: +2 to stat of choice, bonus feat, bonus skill points
Those are just the core options. If you bring in the APG and other source books you can do even more. You don't have to take every option. You just need enough to get the job done.
If anyone wants, I can throw up a build that can do the job of a scout and still maintain his combat prowess. I am pretty sure I can do with with Core only and 15 point buy.
-What works IRL is really, really not going to be applicable to D&D. Turn based movement, the ability of some characters to survive multiple shots to the head, magic, the effectiveness of melee combat, the ability to close a large distance and maul someone before they can get even a single shot off, and the bizzar anatomical differences between the predator and prey all change how the game works.
I'd like to see the hypothetical rogue build. Level 5 and level 10 sound good?
-Go ahead and use the APG. I don't own a copy (but i've had access to one for a while)
-What works IRL is really, really not going to be applicable to D&D. Turn based movement, the ability of some characters to survive multiple shots to the head, magic, the effectiveness of melee combat, the ability to close a large distance and maul someone before they can get even a single shot off, and the bizzar anatomical differences between the predator and prey all change how the game works.I'd like to see the hypothetical rogue build. Level 5 and level 10 sound good?
-Go ahead and use the APG. I don't own a copy (but i've had access to one for a while)
I'll work up the build. The point about what works in real life is more to discuss what scouting actually is and is not. We have a definition of scouting that is used extensively by military units and is a very good baseline on the expectations of the scout.
-What works IRL is really, really not going to be applicable to D&D.
The theory is still going to be the same.
And yeah, even though D&D runs it in abstract, the theories stand up just fine. It's probably harder in real life then in D&D so fair enough to that, but the tactics are logical and valid.
You don't get mauled IRL, you get shot.
RL is far more lethal, hence why there's so much use of tactics... you can't just whack a meatshield up front to absorb the hits.
At least this time you didn't try and tell us how the military does or does not operate.
Like Bob, I have done my run at scouting as well.
It works IRL, it works in any RPG.
On a positive not BNW all of the information for the APG is on:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com
It's really useful, although there are certain aspects that are kind of goofy. I think it helps out non-casters more than casters, which is a bonus.
Mostly, my post was addressing changes in the APG. I felt that other (to me) lackluster classes got their norm boosted up further, while the rogue didn't really get that much in return. (this is opinion, so please don't freak out).
Also, Bob please give BNW a build, i would suggest 10th level standard manual starting gear. (10th level is the make or break level to me so a good place to start). Use only Core and APG, so that people can't complain as much. I'm as interested to see what's going on here as much as everyone else.
The argument about scouting is kind of a moot point for various reasons.
I don't know why people are still posting here. I think the point has been proven that rogues are non-useless. They are use-specific. Although, some of those uses are highly questionable.
Ok, here is the build for level 5 and level 10 using only Core and APG material. Something to keep in mind, I built him as if he is part of an ongoing campaign where his primary role is scouting ahead. One of the alternate favored class features for human rogues is 1/6 of a talent. I took it all 10 times. This means that he could be short 4 hit points or 4 skill points. I assumed that he would want to take it 2 more times so that he could have 2 more talents at level 12 (Improved Evasion and Skill Mastery most likely).
When determining the Stealth and Perception checks by the Bestiary creatures, I assumed the best possible scenario not accounting for distance. For example, if a creature has +4 Stealth in tall grass, I assumed tall grass. When determining Min/Median/Max Perception and Stealth checks, I skipped unintelligent undead, unintelligent constructs, and creatures that would only be found in aquatic environments. I also did not include ooze and swarm Stealth abilities unless they would stealth, like the Leach Swarm or the Gelatinous Cube (doesn’t really stealth but is nearly invisible). I did this so that the Minimum and Median numbers didn’t artificially lower with a bunch of -5’s. If there was a discrepancy with the skill checks (behir has Perception +6 in one spot and +8 in the skill list), I took the higher of the two values. I also skipped the familiars in the Bestiary unless they also made potential opponents on their own. The toad not so much; the viper definitely.
When I selected languages, I chose what is most common in my campaigns but I would naturally select the ones most common in the campaign I would be playing in.
I do think that the Ranger makes a better specialized scout than the rogue but the rogue is very good at general scouting. The ranger would have the favored enemy and favored terrain bonuses that would certainly be a boon.
CR < 1
Perception (Min/Median/Max): -1/4/9
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -4/6.5/18
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 0
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 0
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 0
CR 1
Perception (Min/Median/Max): 0/4/9
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -2/8/12
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 0
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 0
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 2
CR 2
Perception (Min/Median/Max): -5/6/15
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -1/8/17
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 0
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 3
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 0
CR 3
Perception (Min/Median/Max): -5/7/15
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -5/9/16
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 1
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 0
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 2
CR 4
Perception (Min/Median/Max): -5/10/18
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -7/4/17
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 1
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 0
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 1
CR 5
Perception (Min/Median/Max): -5/11/19
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -9/8/13
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 0
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 0
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 0
CR 6
Perception (Min/Median/Max): 0/14/19
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -8/11/25
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 0
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 1
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 1
CR 7
Perception (Min/Median/Max): -5/14/21
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -8/6/16
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 0
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 2
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 2
CR 8
Perception (Min/Median/Max): 0/15/24
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -12/12/29
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 1
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 2
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 0
CR 9
Perception (Min/Median/Max): 10/16/37
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -15/10/21
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 0
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 2
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 1
CR 10
Perception (Min/Median/Max): 0/16/27
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -16/14/18
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 0
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 3
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 1
CR 11
Perception (Min/Median/Max): 0/19.5/24
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -10/9.5/22
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 0
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 3
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 1
CR 12
Perception (Min/Median/Max): 18/24/25
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -20/15/26
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 0
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 2
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 1
CR 13
Perception (Min/Median/Max): 0/24/28
Stealth (Min/Median/Max): -9/11/22
# of Creatures with Blindsight: 1
# of Creatures with Blindsense: 2
# of Creatures with Tremorsense: 0
ZYPHER CR 4
Male Human Rogue (Scout) 5
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +11
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15. . (+5 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 38 (5d8+10)
Fort +4, Ref +9, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Trap Sense +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Shortsword +8 (1d6+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +7 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +6 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Scout's Charge, Sneak Attack +3d6
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 18
Feats Alertness, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Shadow Strike, Stealthy, Weapon Finesse
Traits Devotee of the Green: Knowledge: Nature, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +12, Climb +8, Disable Device +12, Escape Artist +13, Knowledge: Local +6, Knowledge: Nature +6, Linguistics +5, Perception +11, Sense Motive +9, Stealth +14, Swim +6, Use Magic Device +7
Languages Common, Gnoll, Orc
SQ Fast Stealth (Ex), Quick Disable (Ex), Trapfinding +2
Combat Gear +2 Studded Leather, +1 Shortsword, +1 Crossbow, Light, Bolts, Crossbow (10); Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +1, Wand of Message
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/10
Wand of Message - 0/50
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Quick Disable (Ex) You can use the disable device ability to disable traps in half the normal time (minimum 1 round).
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Sneak Attack +3d6 +3d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +2 +2 to find or disable traps.
ZYPHER CR 9
Male Human Rogue (Scout) 10
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +24
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 22, touch 17, flat-footed 17. . (+5 armor, +5 Dex, +2 deflection)
hp 83 (10d8+30)
Fort +5, Ref +12, Will +5
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Trap Sense +3
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Shortsword +13/+8 (1d6+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +12/+7 (1d3+2/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +11/+6 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Deadly, Powerful Sneak, Scout's Charge, Skirmisher, Sneak Attack +5d6
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 18/20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12/14, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 26
Feats Alertness, Improved Initiative, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Shadow Strike, Stealthy, Toughness +10, Weapon Finesse
Traits Devotee of the Green: Knowledge: Nature, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +18, Climb +10, Disable Device +23, Escape Artist +22, Heal +8, Knowledge: Local +10, Knowledge: Nature +10, Linguistics +7, Perception +24, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +27, Survival +6, Swim +7, Use Magic Device +12
Languages Common, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Orc
SQ Cloak of the Bat, Fast Stealth (Ex), Quick Disable (Ex), Trap Spotter (Ex), Trapfinding +5
Combat Gear +1 Crossbow, Light, Bolts, Crossbow (10), +2 Shadow Studded Leather, +1 Shortsword; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +2, Cloak of the Bat, Eyes of the Eagle, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Ring of Protection, +2, Spyglass, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Wand of Comprehend Languages, Wand of Feather Step, Wand of Keen Senses, Wand of Longstrider, Wand of Message
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/10
Wand of Comprehend Languages - 0/50
Wand of Feather Step - 0/50
Wand of Keen Senses - 0/50
Wand of Longstrider - 0/50
Wand of Message - 0/50
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Cloak of the Bat
Deadly, Powerful Sneak (Ex) Take a full attack action at -2 to hit until your next turn. Sneak attacks during this time turn sneak damage rolls of 1 and 2 into 3.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Quick Disable (Ex) You can use the disable device ability to disable traps in half the normal time (minimum 1 round).
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Skirmisher (Ex) 1st attack after moving 10+' (same round) deals sneak attack damage.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +5 +5 to find or disable traps.
To clarify is the perception bonus on your 10th level character for finding traps or in general?
Ok, here is the build for level 5 and level 10 using only Core and APG material.
Or you could have taken a small race for extra stealth, or a half elf with focus in perception or stealth, or an Elf for the lovely perception bonus... :)
So many sexy options!
Nice build btw.
MUCH better as far as having an actual discussion. Thank you.
I'll post the druid so we can comp shop.
What i see so far: he can't scout when its dark except for every 7 minutes out of 14 (cloak of the bat) because he has no way of seeing in the dark.
The offense looks kind of low. You can try to flank for sneak attacks but that's never a sure thing.
The saves are very low. Cloak of the bat is nice but the cloak of resistance really is in the big 6 for a reason.
Scent was off the creature's abilities to detect stealthers (i think thats the most common one)
What i see so far: he can't scout when its dark except for every 7 minutes out of 14 (cloak of the bat) because he has no way of seeing in the dark.
Why I prefer non-human scouts personally.
To clarify is the perception bonus on your 10th level character for finding traps or in general?
In general.
MUCH better as far as having an actual discussion. Thank you.
I'll post the druid so we can comp shop.
What i see so far: he can't scout when its dark except for every 7 minutes out of 14 (cloak of the bat) because he has no way of seeing in the dark.
The offense looks kind of low. You can try to flank for sneak attacks but that's never a sure thing.
The saves are very low. Cloak of the bat is nice but the cloak of resistance really is in the big 6 for a reason.
Scent was off the creature's abilities to detect stealthers (i think thats the most common one)
I intentionally left scent off the list of detection abilities because it isn't a targeting sense unless you are within 5 feet. The Perception skill covers the use of scent. If you want I can go through and count up the number of creatures with scent but that won't happen tonight. The nice thing about dealing with scent is that it is easily countered.
The seeing in the dark was something that I know I needed to address. I was thinking of having someone cast a permanent darkvision but I didn't take the time to look it up. I believe I have enough money for it. If not, I can always make an adjustment. Also, potions, scrolls, and wands can help with that too.
The saves are low, and I knew that going in. Sacrifices have to be made. The idea is that he is stealthy enough to avoid needing to worry about being targeted.
As for the combat, I don't see rogues as front line fighters unless they flank. That would give him an additional +2 to hit. His damage is fine and I think he can hit often enough to be dangerous. I would have to go through and look at the ACs but I don't have the time tonight. Maybe tomorrow. I am also still concerned with his AC. It is lower than I would like but again, if he isn't seen often he isn't targeted often.
Like I said in my post, I think the rogue makes a fine general scout. He uses more skills than magic, although I do have some magic in there. That allows other party members to use their spells for more productive things than keeping the scout hidden.
Ok, here is the build for level 5 and level 10 using only Core and APG material.Or you could have taken a small race for extra stealth, or a half elf with focus in perception or stealth, or an Elf for the lovely perception bonus... :)
So many sexy options!
Nice build btw.
Thanks. I originally went with elf but I wanted the extra feat and skill points. It may not have been the best choice overall. I was actually looking at half-orc or dwarf too. I skipped the halfling because the race really is the best overall choice for a rogue with the only real problem being his reduced movement.
It may not have been the best choice overall. I was actually looking at half-orc or dwarf too. I skipped the halfling because the race really is the best overall choice for a rogue with the only real problem being his reduced movement.
I'm running a half-orc Rogue at the moment in PbP with a more general/combat build, but reckon he'd be fine as a scout. Darkvision is great for 60' and means that in the REALLY dark areas you can see the Scent based creatures before they can smell you. Handy.
For my traditional games, my last 1/2 elf was a sneak and seek specialist and worked just dandy.
Halfling movement I agree can be a pain, but for sneaky peeky stuff they can slip in and out quite well. I just happen not to like them though.
I'm not 'heightist', honest!
I intentionally left scent off the list of detection abilities because it isn't a targeting sense unless you are within 5 feet.
1 is that it fubars most of the point of stealth, which isn't to give you a 50% miss chance but to keep anyone from knowing that you're there.
The Perception skill covers the use of scent.
Not unless the creature is looking for a scent (in which case they get a +8 bonus.) the text says
The creature detects another creature's presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
The creature doesn't have to roll to detect, it doesn't have to make a perception roll to detect, it just flat out detects the stealther.
If you want I can go through and count up the number of creatures with scent but that won't happen tonight. The nice thing about dealing with scent is that it is easily countered.
Understandable
Whats it countered by? The APG spell?
I intentionally left scent off the list of detection abilities because it isn't a targeting sense unless you are within 5 feet.1 is that it fubars most of the point of stealth, which isn't to give you a 50% miss chance but to keep anyone from knowing that you're there.
I don't want to get into a big debate on scent. I just use the tables in the Core Book for the DCs and go with that for the sake of this discussion. It states that you use Perception to detect someone using Stealth and that Perception covers all 5 senses, including smell.
Not unless the creature is looking for a scent (in which case they get a +8 bonus.) the text says
Where does it state that? I looked over both the Perception skill description and the Scent ability and I can't find that statement in either of them.
The creature detects another creature's presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
The creature doesn't have to roll to detect, it doesn't have to make a perception roll to detect, it just flat out detects the stealther.
I don't get that from the description of either the Perception skill nor the Scent ability. Nothing says that Scent overrides the need to use Perception. It just states that they can detect by sense of smell not that they automatically detect by sense of smell.
Whats it countered by? The APG spell?
Strong smells, water, wind, etc. The scent description gives a few examples. No need for magic, just need to use something else that has a stronger smell. I don't know what would smell stronger than a half-orc adventurer that hasn't bathed in weeks...
Race Human
Level 12
Class Rogue9(trapsmith variant)/Shadowdancer3STR 12
INT 07
WIS 14
DEX 21 (16+2race+3bumps)
CON 14
CHA 12
Someone has been gaming for a long time. I haven't seen that order of stats for more than a decade. I think you've been gaming for more than 25 years though. It's usually the 1E crowd that uses that array. Took me a long time to change the order to 3E and when I play 4E I have yet another order.
Oh, and I like the build. I just wanted to comment on how old some of us are getting.
|
Rogues are a gestalt class. Can you replace some, even many of the abilities a well d4esigned rogue will have with other classes, even, usually in the short term, better individual abilities that the Rogue will have by using other classes? Sure.
But a well designed Rogue can do so many things well that no other class can keep up over the broad spectrum.
Rogues have good BaB,which, when linked with TWF, Sneak Attack and the Rogue ability to flank nearly anything in nearly any situation means that they can do very respectable damage. Will they do more damage than an equally well designed Fighter. Nope, but that is only one aspect of the Rogue gestalt. That well designed melee monster is not going to be nearly as stealthy as the Rogue, nor have many of the other abilities, many of which are skill driven, that the Rogue has.
Rogues have a single save style, Reflex, that between high Dex and Evasion all but negates MANY spells or sitations that other classes have to worry about. Rogues laugh at Fireballs that fry Wizards because because to handle that Fireball the Wizard must be prepared for it. The Rogue is always prepared for it.
No other class preforms so many roles so well while alone as the Rogue. He's an infiltrating, damage dealing, face man who can easily escape notice simply by not needing the magics that other classes rely on to do the things he does without the need for magic. All at once if he's even half way decently designed.
UMD means that as he increases in levels he can start doing alot of the things those other classes are doing with magic to a very decent degree about as quickly as they are doing it themselves, if with less verve than they do their jobs...but he retains, always, the ability to do without. Make magic inconvenient to use in a situation and you hamstring the main line magic using classes while the Rogue just shrugs and carries on.
In a well run game mobility is king, and only the Monk beats the Rogue for mobility. While the Sorcerer is worrying about being able to get into position to cast without being mauled the Rogue is flitting around the battlefield like a gadfly. They can disrupt a well disciplined enemy formation simply with their movement, a side effect of their getting into position to do their thing that will drive the GM to distraction as he realizes that his formally safe caster is now flanked by a guy who will probably be doing crazy damage until someone peals him off the casters hide which disrupts whatever the savior was doing.
It's the gestalt. Single things can be duplicated and even exceeded by several other classes going out of their comfort zones to do one or two aspects of the Rogues job better than the Rogue does it, but not all of those jobs and while he's designed to do the Rogues job he isn't doing his traditional job well.
That example of the Wizard with lots of ranks in Stealth (and using Invisibility) ignores that the Wizard isn't going to have nearly so high a Dexterity to aid his skill ranks or that if he is spending alot of ranks on Stealth, of his 2+Int per level slots, then he isn't spending them on Spellcraft or Know-Arcana ro Linguistics or the things he'd traditionally be spending them on. And the Rogue, who starts with a +3 bonus to his Stealth added to his (very probably) much higher Dex modifier can also use magic...but doesn't need it.
The gestalt of the Rogue, or any other class really, but this is especially true with the skill monkey who is by default so broadly capable, is what makes him better at being a Rogue than another class is in more than one or two of the many areas where the Rogue is strong.
Isshia
I don't want to get into a big debate on scent. I just use the tables in the Core Book for the DCs and go with that for the sake of this discussion. It states that you use Perception to detect someone using Stealth and that Perception covers all 5 senses, including smell.
So by your reading what exactly does scent do, since anyone can use perception to detect a sneaking rogue?
Not unless the creature is looking for a scent (in which case they get a +8 bonus.) the text saysWhere does it state that? I looked over both the Perception skill description and the Scent ability and I can't find that statement in either of them.
Could be the part of the brain with the old 3.5 stuff in it. I'll see if i can find it tommorow.
I don't get that from the description of either the Perception skill nor the Scent ability. Nothing says that Scent overrides the need to use Perception. It just states that they can detect by sense of smell not that they automatically detect by sense of smell.
It doesn't say that they have to roll, otherwise its not a special ability its perception the same as anyone else.
Whats it countered by? The APG spell?Strong smells, water, wind, etc. The scent description gives a few examples. No need for magic, just need to use something else that has a stronger smell. I don't know what would smell stronger than a half-orc adventurer that hasn't bathed in weeks...
Water and wind are under the control of the dm, not the player. Strong smells might mask what you are, but aren't going to hide that you're something or where you are. You can roll around in pastrami if you'd like. They won't know you're an orc but i don't think it will change the guard dog's reaction much.
I'm New with stat blocks.
Arsenic and old lace
Arsenic CR 4
Male Human Druid 5
NG Medium Humanoid (Human) (on occasion)
Init +8; Senses Perception +12. When Shapeshifted into velociraptor add scent and low light vision, and init increases to +9
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 15, touch 13, flat-footed 12. . (+2 armor, +4 3 dex)
hp 34 (5d8+5)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +9
Defensive Abilities: none
--------------------
DEFENSE: Velociraptor
--------------------
AC 17, touch 15, flat-footed 14. . (+1 armor, +4 dex, +2 size)
hp 34 (5d8+5)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +9
Defensive Abilities: none
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +2 (1d6-1/18-20/x2) and
Ranged Sling +6 1d4-1 (20X2)
Special Attacks: Spells
--------------------
OFFENSE (Velociraptor)
--------------------
Spd 60 ft. (70 with long strider active)
Melee +2/-3/-3 (1d4-1/1d6-1/1d6-1)
Special Attacks: Spells (natural spell)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 16 (+2 belt), Con 12, Int 12, Wis 19 (+2 racial, 4th level bump), Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +2; CMD 16 (CMB +1; CMD 16 in velociraptor form)
Feats Alertness, Druid Weapon Proficiencies, Improved inititative,skill focus: disable device, Skill focus: stealth, Natural spell
Traits Focused mind, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +7, Disable Device +11, Knowledge: Nature +9, Perception +12, Proffession scribe +8, Stealth +11 (+16 in velociraptor form), survival +13
Languages Common, Druidic, Sylvan
SQ Nature bond, Nature Sense, orisons, Wild Empathy Woodland stride, trackless step, resist nature's lure, wildshape 2X per day (+1 from druid's vestment
Combat Gear masterwork Leather, scimatar, sling stones.(10);
Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +1, Wand of cure light wounds.
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Slingstones - 0/10
Wand of Cure Light wounds. - 0/50
Spells
0: Detect magic create water, Detect poison, stabilize
1: Farie fire, entangle, Long strider X2
2) Delay poison, Flaming sphere, Spider climb
3) Poison, Magic fang (greater)
notes: Has roughly 10 hours of day worth of wildshape. 70 foot movement allows Arsenic to search roughly as fast as the party moves. Keeps a peice of chalk ready on Old lace and the party cleric for writing messages.
-Yes, this is a bad druid. But its a decent scout.
Old lace: small velociraptor. Int bumped up to 3 at 4th level. Acrobatics +8, Climb +5, Perception +7, stealth +12, Swim +5.
Technically knows all the tricks except trick. Has "attack" trice twice to attack unusual critters. Int of 3 probably makes that irrelevant.
Feats: Improved natural attack: talons. WF: Talons. Toughness (didn't get weapon finesse because i assume i keep the same critter and finess becomes useless after 7th level)
Attacks +4 +5 +5 1d4+1 /1d8+1/1d8+1; with magic fang +4 +5 +5 1d4+2 /1d8+2/1d8+2 - II'm not sure if i'm doing that right. Talons and bites are all primary attacks...so there's no penalty for attacking with them?
AC 18 (+4 dex +1 size, +3 natural)
So by your reading what exactly does scent do, since anyone can use perception to detect a sneaking rogue?
Could be the part of the brain with the old 3.5 stuff in it. I'll see if i can find it tommorow.
I found the statement. It's under Perception:
Special: Elves, half-elves, gnomes, and halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent. Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range. For more on special qualities, see Special Abilities.
Based on that statement, then the scent ability and perception work just fine as written without there being any need to assume an automatic success. For example, the Leopard has a +5 Perception under normal circumstances. If something is within 30 feet then the leopard has +13 to its Perception check. The Shoggoth has +33 Perception. If something is within 60 feet, then its Perception is +41 (tremorsense) and the poor soul who is trying to be sneaky within 30 feet now has to deal with a +49 Perception check (scent).
It doesn't say that they have to roll, otherwise its not a special ability its perception the same as anyone else.
What makes it a special ability is the very nice bonus the creature receives so long it is within a specified distance from the target scent. This is usually 30 feet but not always. In addition, creatures with Scent can track by Scent. Tracking by Scent has its own set of advantages and disadvantages.
Water and wind are under the control of the dm, not the player. Strong smells might mask what you are, but aren't going to hide that you're something or where you are. You can roll around in pastrami if you'd like. They won't know you're an orc but i don't think it will change the guard dog's reaction much.
Winds are under the control of the DM but the direction the character approaches is under the control of the player. I would hope that a scouting character has a high enough Perception to see or hear when he's getting close so that he can adjust whether or not he is upwind from the group he wants to gather information on. In addition, if you know that you need to sneak by a creature with Scent I would also hope that you find a way to mask your smell so that you smell like something else. If you are trying to sneak past a guard dog, maybe pastrami wasn't the best choice of things to roll around in.
In the Pathfinder Companion book: Osirion, Land of the Pharaohs, there is a feat called Conceal Scent. Since it's OGL I think I can post it.
Conceal Scent
You have learned the essential tricks of disguising your odor and keeping creatures from locating you by your scent.
Prerequisites: Hide 3 ranks, Survival 3 ranks.
Benefit: Creatures cannot use the scent ability to track you (though they can still track you through standard means such as footprints). Creatures with scent can detect your presence by smell at half the normal distance, but cannot pinpoint your location with scent.
Arsenic and old lace ** spoiler omitted **...
I hope you don't mind that I double check math. I have found that quite often people forget to add in bonuses more often than they forget their penalties. I found that with your build. Your build still has room to grow.
First, don't you think that Reactionary is one of the best Traits available? I always start with it and then decide if I want to drop it for something else.
I notice Disable Device as a skill you put ranks into. It's a great skill but the rogue has an advantage here. The rogue can disable magical traps. There are probably not a lot of those in the wilderness but if there is any scouting to be done in a dungeon or building, then it is entirely possible. Also, with the Quick Disable, the rogue can disable the trap in half the time.
I think your druid also has too many feats. Human, Level 1, Level 3, Level 5. You have 5 feats.
Your skills are off a bit also. You still have 6 skill points to spend. Your Disable Device should be +10 unless you have Masterwork Thieve's Tools in which case it's +12. Your Stealth should also be +10.
The druid's vestment is 10,000 gold and your character only starts with 10,500 gold. That's one heck of an investment ;). Along with the wand though, you are slightly over. It's not really a big deal since it's not much and the WBL is a guideline not hard limit. Just spending 95% of your wealth on a single item seems like you're putting all your eggs in one basket. For this item it's not so bad.
Your pet doesn't qualify for Improved Natural Attack yet (+4 BAB). In my game I allow the Druid to redo the animal companion feats whenever he levels. The reason for this is because he can simply dismiss the animal and then get another one and give it the feats he wants. Rather than have the adventure stop for 24 hours I just let him change the feats. Most of the time the druid is in the same environment anyway. My current campaign hasn't had them leave the environment for the first 12 levels so this hasn't been an issue.
Here's what I have so far on your druid:
ARSENIC CR 4
Male Human Druid 5
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +12
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12. . (+2 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 33 (5d8+5)
Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +9
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Scimitar +2 (1d6-1/18-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +2 (1d3-1/20/x2)
Ranged Sling +5 (1d4-1/20/x2)
Druid Spells Known (CL 5, 2 melee touch, 5 ranged touch):
3 (2/day) Poison (DC 17), Magic Fang, Greater
2 (3/day) Delay Poison (DC 16), Flaming Sphere (DC 16), Spider Climb
1 (4/day) Longstrider, Longstrider, Faerie Fire, Entangle (DC 15)
0 (at will) Create Water, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Stabilize
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +2; CMD 14
Feats Alertness, Druid Weapon Proficiencies, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus: Disable Device, Skill Focus: Stealth
Traits Focused Mind, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +7, Disable Device +10, Knowledge: Nature +9, Perception +12, Profession: Scribe +8, Sense Motive +6, Stealth +10, Survival +13
Languages Common, Druidic, Sylvan
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Nature Sense (Ex), Resist Nature's Lure (Ex), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Spontaneous Casting, Trackless Step (Ex), Wild Empathy +4 (Ex), Wild Shape (2/day) (Su), Wild Shape (Beast Shape I: Small - Medium animal), Woodland Stride (Ex)
Combat Gear Masterwork Leather, Scimitar, Sling, Bullets, Sling (10); Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +1, Thieves' tools, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Vestment, Druid's, Wand of Cure Light Wounds
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bullets, Sling - 0/10
Wand of Cure Light Wounds - 0/50
Wild Shape (2/day) (Su) - 0/2
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Focused Mind +2 to Concentration checks
Nature Sense (Ex) A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks.
Resist Nature's Lure (Ex) +4 save vs. effects from Fey and effects using plants.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Spontaneous Casting The Druid can convert stored spells into Summon Nature's Ally spells.
Trackless Step (Ex) You do not leave a trail as you move through natural suroundings.
Wild Empathy +4 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wild Shape (2/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.
Wild Shape (Beast Shape I: Small - Medium animal) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an animal.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
ARSENIC (VELOCIRAPTOR FORM) CR 4
Male Human Druid 5
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +8; Senses Scent ability, Low-Light Vision, Perception +12
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 16, touch 14, flat-footed 14. . (+2 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 34 (5d8+5)
Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +9
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee 2 talons +3 (1d8, 20/x2) and Bite +3 (1d6, 20/x2), and Foreclaws -2 (1d4, 20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 8/10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +3; CMD 17
Feats Alertness, Druid Weapon Proficiencies, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus: Disable Device, Skill Focus: Stealth
Traits Focused Mind, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +7, Disable Device +10, Knowledge: Nature +9, Perception +12, Profession: Scribe +8, Sense Motive +6, Stealth +10, Survival +13
OLD LACE CR 5
Male Velociraptor
NN Small Animal
Init +4; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +9
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 18, touch 15, flat-footed 14. . (+4 Dex, +1 size, +3 natural)
hp 45 (+20)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +2
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 60 ft.
Melee Bite (Velociraptor) +5 (1d4+1/20/x2) and
. . Talon x2 (Velociraptor) +6 x2 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +5 (1d2+1/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 17, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +3; CMB +3; CMD 17
Feats Toughness +5, Weapon Focus: Talon
Tricks Attack [Trick], Attack [Trick], Attack Any Target [Trick], Defend [Trick], Down [Trick], Fighting [Trick], Guard [Trick], Seek [Trick], Stay [Trick], Track [Trick]
Skills Acrobatics +12, Climb +5, Fly +6, Perception +9, Stealth +16, Swim +5
Languages
SQ Attack Any Target [Trick], Defend [Trick], Evasion (Ex), Fighting [Trick], Guard [Trick], Seek [Trick], Track [Trick]
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Attack Any Target [Trick] The animal will attack any creature on command.
Defend [Trick] The animal will defend you.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Fighting [Trick] The animal has been trained to fight.
Guard [Trick] The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Seek [Trick] The animal moves into an area and looks around for anything that is obviously alive or animate.
Track [Trick] The animal will track a scent.
Old Lace doesn't know every trick. He can know 8 tricks so I chose the ones that would be the most beneficial as a scout. Also, you still have 3 skill points to spend for Old Lace and one feat.
He's a good scout but he is limited. In almost every way the rogue outshines him as a scout.
AC: Zypher
Attack: Zypher (tie if you include Old Lace)
Damage: Zypher (tie if you include Old Lace)
Initiative: Arsenic
Fort: Arsenic
Ref: Zypher
Will: Arsenic
Acrobatics: Zypher
Climb: Zypher
Disable Device: Zypher
Escape Artist: Zypher
Knowledge: Local: Zypher
Knowledge: Nature:
Linguistics: Zypher
Perception: Tie
Sense Motive: Zypher
Stealth: Zypher
Survival: Arsenic
Swim: Zypher
Use Magic Device: Zypher
Special Abilities: Tie
Your druid is better at night. The rogue is better overall. Neither one is good underground. If I also go over the WBL by 500 gold or so, then I can afford a wand of darkvision which puts the rogue better in all conditions: night, day, underground, inside, outside, etc.
So by your reading what exactly does scent do, since anyone can use perception to detect a sneaking rogue?
Could be the part of the brain with the old 3.5 stuff in it. I'll see if i can find it tommorow.
I found the statement. It's under Perception:
-Go brain!
Based on that statement, then the scent ability and perception work just fine as written without there being any need to assume an automatic success.
Tremor sense has the exact same language and explicitly has auto detect
Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.
Format: tremorsense 60 ft.; Location: Senses.
So i don't think the inclusion of the bonus is an argument against auto detect.
For example, the Leopard has a +5 Perception under normal circumstances. If something is within 30 feet then the leopard has +13 to its Perception check. The Shoggoth has +33 Perception. If something is within 60 feet, then its Perception is +41 (tremorsense) and the poor soul who is trying to be sneaky within 30 feet now has to deal with a +49 Perception check (scent).
I don't think thats how it works but i think you'd need staff to weigh in to make that point.
Winds are under the control of the DM but the direction the character approaches is under the control of the player. I would hope that a scouting character has a high enough Perception to see or hear when he's getting close so that he can adjust whether or not he is upwind from the group he wants to gather information on.
but if there is no wind its still 30 feet, thats a -6 to the perception and then at best another round moving around the thing... if you know its there.
In addition, if you know that you need to sneak by a creature with Scent I would also hope that you find a way to mask your smell so that you smell like something else. If you are trying to sneak past a guard dog, maybe pastrami wasn't the best choice of things to roll around in.
What would you roll around in... skunk spray? My dog used to try to adopt those things.
I hope you don't mind that I double check math.
No problem. Its literally something i did at 4 am.
First, don't you think that Reactionary is one of the best Traits available? I always start with it and then decide if I want to drop it for something else.
I'm a little new to traits but yes it does seem to benefit everyone.
I notice Disable Device as a skill you put ranks into. It's a great skill but the rogue has an advantage here. The rogue can disable magical traps. There are probably not a lot of those in the wilderness but if there is any scouting to be done in a dungeon or building, then it is entirely possible. Also, with the Quick Disable, the rogue can disable the trap in half the time.
Sure, the rogue is better at it, thats his bag. But the druid is adequate with it. As for taking the extra time i really don't think its all that big a deal to take 1d4 rounds rather than 2d4 rounds. If you're feeling paranoid the druid can always run back 60 feet from the trap and place a red rock to let the party know to stop so they're not standing at the trap.
I think your druid also has too many feats. Human, Level 1, Level 3, Level 5. You have 5 feats.
Alertness was a transcription error, I copy/pasted your stat block. Its not included in his perception score.
Your skills are off a bit also. You still have 6 skill points to spend.
2 in fly 3 in knowledge: dungeoneering.. hmmm I don't see what else didn't make the list.
Your Disable Device should be +10 unless you have Masterwork Thieve's Tools in which case it's +12.
I just assumed mw tools would cancel out doing the disabling in form.
But you're right, 5 and 3 and 2 is indeed 10Your Stealth should also be +10.
hmmm.. same math error twice. That would bring it t0 15 in critter form.
The druid's vestment is 10,000 gold and your character only starts with 10,500 gold. That's one heck of an investment ;). Along with the wand though, you are slightly over. It's not really a big deal since it's not much and the WBL is a guideline not hard limit. Just spending 95% of your wealth on a single item seems like you're putting all your eggs in one basket. For this item it's not so bad.
eh?
Vestment, Druid's
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 10th
Slot body; Price 3,750 gp; Weight —
Description
This light garment is worn over normal clothing or armor. Most such vestments are green, embroidered with plant or animal motifs. When this item is worn by a character with the wild shape ability, the character can use that ability one additional time each day.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, polymorph or wild shape ability; Cost 1,375 gp
-and this matches my book on price.
Your pet doesn't qualify for Improved Natural Attack yet (+4 BAB)
I really need to get the beastiary...
Probably give him Light armor proficiency instead. I swore not to wear metal armor. I didn't say anything about him...
Old Lace doesn't know every trick. He can know 8 tricks so I chose the ones that would be the most beneficial as a scout.
Old Lace has an int of 3 (from the level 4 increase), so can know 9 tricks plus the three bonus ones from being a druid
An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can learn a maximum of six tricks
assuming He even needs tricks since he's technically capable of understanding a language at that point.
He's a good scout but he is limited. In almost every way the rogue outshines him as a scout.
With traps and communication and how else? Its only another level or two before the druid can turn into a bat and basically auto-sence enemies, not to mention gain the disguised advantages .. can you really shoot at every bat in a cavern?
The druid has better senses (scent and low light vision), The ability to gather information from tracks rather than with only direct evidence , one higher perception, 1 higher stealth in critter form, a MUCH better chance of running away from a hard fight, can stealth even faster than the rogue unless the rogue is burning charges from his wand of longstrider.
The druid can also take his critter with him scouting in dangerous areas. Its like a persistent mirror image that flanks.
The druid is also a far better combatant. Between the animal companion, flaming spheres on high ac enemies, poison (which is nasty), and summoned critters he gets a lot of options. There's also utility spells like entangle and for getting away, stopping escape, and farie fire for invisible enemies. He also has better saving throws.. fort and will are HUGE Achilles heels for rogues.
Tremor sense has the exact same language and explicitly has auto detect
Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.
Format: tremorsense 60 ft.; Location: Senses.
So i don't think the inclusion of the bonus is an argument against auto detect.
The argument against auto-detect would be that Tremorsense has auto-detect written right in its description while Scent doesn't.
I don't think thats how it works but i think you'd need staff to weigh in to make that point.
That's how I would run it unless there is errata. I have managed to sneak up on a dog in broad daylight while it was awake. Scent shouldn't be an auto-detect ability. The +8 to Perception if within 30 feet (or more for strong smells) is sufficient in my opinion to give an advantage.
but if there is no wind its still 30 feet, thats a -6 to the perception and then at best another round moving around the thing... if you know its there.
Most of the time, I don't see this as a problem. If the scout is being scouted, then it can be a serious issue. Most creatures aren't in perm-stealth mode so I don't think it will be an issue very often.
What would you roll around in... skunk spray? My dog used to try to adopt those things.
I'm not an expert at disguising my scent. I do know that hunters use a verity of masking scents so I will just have to defer to them.
Sure, the rogue is better at it, thats his bag. But the druid is adequate with it. As for taking the extra time i really don't think its all that big a deal to take 1d4 rounds rather than 2d4 rounds. If you're feeling paranoid the druid can always run back 60 feet from the trap and place a red rock to let the party know to stop so they're not standing at the trap.
I was thinking that the rogue wouldn't have to stop or slow down his scouting as much. He would also be able to disable any traps before the party arrives in the area and he can continue on.
2 in fly 3 in knowledge: dungeoneering.. hmmm I don't see what else didn't make the list.
You still have one more point. Maybe put it in Perception or another Knowledge skill?
Vestment, Druid's
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 10th
Slot body; Price 3,750 gp; Weight —
-and this matches my book on price.
The program I am using has it listed as 10,000. I sent a message to the developer to address the bug.
I really need to get the beastiary...
Probably give him Light armor proficiency instead. I swore not to wear metal armor. I didn't say anything about him...
You can use Pathfinder Offical SRD or OGC PSRD. The second one has the advantage of having a lot of OGC content not in the Core Book but still is Paizo material. I like the layout of the first one better.
Old Lace has an int of 3 (from the level 4 increase), so can know 9 tricks plus the three bonus ones from being a druid
An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can learn a maximum of six tricksassuming He even needs tricks since he's technically capable of understanding a language at that point.
I think we can both agree that he doesn't need the tricks anyway. Since it's not important to the build, we can just not worry about them.
With traps and communication and how else? Its only another level or two before the druid can turn into a bat and basically auto-sence enemies, not to mention gain the disguised advantages .. can you really shoot at every bat in a cavern?
Being an effective scout is more than just sneaking up to the enemy. It's being able to determine what's happening. The more you information you can gather the better. The rogue I built speaks many languages, can determine what's motivating the enemy, can maneuver through changing terrain with little difficulty (and this gets easier as he levels) without expending any resources, can get the information back to the party without potentially giving away his position, can give the party up-to-the-round details, is able to deal with potential traps along the way (I need to put some ranks in Survival to deal with hazards), and can move at full speed without giving away his position.
The druid has better senses (scent and low light vision), The ability to gather information from tracks rather than with only direct evidence , one higher perception, 1 higher stealth in critter form, a MUCH better chance of running away from a hard fight, can stealth even faster than the rogue unless the rogue is burning charges from his wand of longstrider.
- The druid's senses are better but I figured that was balanced out by the Fast Stealth.
- The level 10 build does have Survival ranks but I should put some in sooner.
- There isn't much difference between +1 and +0 in a skill so I counted it as equal. The rogue is better at finding traps by one and the druid is better at finding non-traps by one. They're about equal.
- The +1 Stealth isn't a significant difference but the ability to move at full 30 feet per round instead of half-speed is significant. Wild Shaping into a an animal doesn't give you the animal's base speed. Your druid would be limited to 15 feet of movement. The pet can stealth at 30 feet per round but with the limited Intelligence may not be able to convey the information he learns.
- The rogue as scout wasn't meant to be able to get into the fight. He was meant to avoid the fight. If he can go first, he can deal 4d6+2 (1d8+3d6+1 if he uses the crossbow, but average damage is the same) damage with a +8 to hit against a most likely flat-footed opponent. He's only going to get that one attack though so he should be ready to get out of dodge fast. If he's smart, he will do everything he can to avoid engagement until the party can arrive. That's where the wand of message comes in very handy. If he's in enough trouble, he can go all out with his defenses and crank his AC up to 27 (Total Defense +6, Partial Cover +2, concealment 20%) which should be enough to keep him alive until the cavalry arrives.
The druid can also take his critter with him scouting in dangerous areas. Its like a persistent mirror image that flanks.
While it certainly helps, remember that wild shape was changed dramatically from 3.5 to Pathfinder. Your wild shaped druid isn't as lethal as he once was. He's still dangerous but not as he was.
The druid is also a far better combatant. Between the animal companion, flaming spheres on high ac enemies, poison (which is nasty), and summoned critters he gets a lot of options. There's also utility spells like entangle and for getting away, stopping escape, and farie fire for invisible enemies. He also has better saving throws.. fort and will are HUGE Achilles heels for rogues.
Your druid is definitely better at getting out of the trouble if he gets into it. I won't deny that. I am banking on not getting into the trouble in the first place. My rogue's biggest problem is actually going to be Will saves. Even if he's completely on the defense with the AC of 27 and a 20% miss chance, spells and abilities that target Will saves are mostly unaffected by that. With only a +3 I need to be very cautious of when, who, and how I attack/defend.
I think the druid can make a fine scout, especially outdoors. I just think he's better off in a different role. I think the rogue is better overall.
You have helped me see some weaknesses in my builds and I will be glad to post them with some changes soon (like the next few days).
A couple of things....
Rogues can scout equally across many terrain types, the druid not so much.
The Druid 'isn't core', you have taken a Velociraptor, which is not a prescribed Druid companion; the stats are 'fan fic' and not allowable in core campaigns. I can see why you'd take a Velo, the stealth capacity is outstanding - but if you stick to RAW you won't find it as sexy... indeed you'll probably have to park most companions if you want to seak about undetected.
From a more liberal viewpoint, I don't even know any GM's who'd cop to a druid morphing into a Dinosaur (anachronistic creatures they have never seen) nor take one as a pet for the same reason.
I'm not an expert at disguising my scent. I do know that hunters use a verity of masking scents so I will just have to defer to them.
There's scentlock clothing but i don't know how effective it is. Mostly they make themselves smell like deer, and a friend of mine likes to walk through the cow fields and get the smell of manuer on his boots. Thats really only going to work in a D&D sense if you stay in the area.
Last adventure i had my alchemist sleep in gnoll clothes, to help his disguise when he tried to sneak the party into camp.
Quote:
I was thinking that the rogue wouldn't have to stop or slow down his scouting as much. He would also be able to disable any traps before the party arrives in the area and he can continue on.
Its.. nice.. i just don't see where its all that neccesary. If the party is in that much of a hurry the druid can just drop poor rocky the earth elemental into the trap.
2 in fly 3 in knowledge: dungeoneering.. hmmm I don't see what else didn't make the list.You still have one more point. Maybe put it in Perception or another Knowledge skill?
Perception was maxed out (alertness was a pasting error)
The program I am using has it listed as 10,000. I sent a message to the developer to address the bug.
-hero lab?
You can use Pathfinder Offical SRD or OGC PSRD. The second one has the advantage of having a lot of OGC content not in the Core Book but still is Paizo material. I like the layout of the first one better.
those are good for looking up specific stuff but are hard to read in the tub to generate ideas.
I think we can both agree that he doesn't need the tricks anyway. Since it's not important to the build, we can just not worry about them.
That's sort of why that section is state work.
Being an effective scout is more than just sneaking up to the enemy. It's being able to determine what's happening. The more you information you can gather the better. The rogue I built speaks many languages, can determine what's motivating the enemy, can maneuver through changing terrain with little difficulty (and this gets easier as he levels) without expending any resources, can get the information back to the party without potentially giving away his position, can give the party up-to-the-round details, is able to deal with potential traps along the way (I need to put some ranks in Survival to deal with hazards), and can move at full speed without giving away his position.
Eavesdropping is situationally useful. If i wanted to the druid can start putting points in linguistics now that handle animal is largely unnecessary. Giving the party information on exactly whats there, IRL< would be inordinately useful, but in game 90% of the time the party is just going to ready an arrow/sword/ spell anyway no matter whats ahead.
- The druid's senses are better but I figured that was balanced out by the Fast Stealth. Wild Shaping into a an animal doesn't give you the animal's base speed. Your druid would be limited to 15 feet of movement. The pet can stealth at 30 feet per round but with the limited Intelligence may not be able to convey the information he learns.
Ahhh.. but it does. That was the reason for the velociraptor form, and some of the reason for getting one as a pet.
Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
They hid it under the description of polymorph under transmutation.
the druid is better at finding non-traps by one. They're about equal.
- The rogue as scout wasn't meant to be able to get into the fight. He was meant to avoid the fight. If he can go first, he can deal 4d6+2 (1d8+3d6+1 if he uses the crossbow, but average damage is the same)
Going first or second, even in a form not picked for combat, The druid and his friend would do comparable damage. He can also entangle, stone spike, or poison someone. If things are really bad he can fly out like.. well a bat out of hell if need be.
While it certainly helps, remember that wild shape was changed dramatically from 3.5 to Pathfinder. Your wild shaped druid isn't as lethal as he once was. He's still dangerous but not as he was.
He's not going to down the monster on his own (not with this build anyway) But the druid and the animal companion together can give an equal cr monster a run for its money with or without surprising it.
Your druid is definitely better at getting out of the trouble if he gets into it. I won't deny that. I am banking on not getting into the trouble in the first place.
The druid is just about as good at that. Scent might make him slightly better.
My rogue's biggest problem is actually going to be Will saves. Even if he's completely on the defense with the AC of 27 and a 20% miss chance, spells and abilities that target Will saves are mostly unaffected by that. With only a +3 I need to be very cautious of when, who, and how I attack/defend.
I think you have too much put into scouting. You can't weaken your offense any more than it already is in order to be effective.
I think the druid can make a fine scout, especially outdoors. I just think he's better off in a different role. I think the rogue is better overall.
I think the druid is comparable to better for scouting and it gets better as he levels. Yes, a druid can be built into a better role but the point is that even for something the rogue was supposed to be tailor made for by gimping his offense and or defense the druid can do about as well but with a better offense, utility, and defense.
You have helped me see some weaknesses in my builds and I will be glad to post them with some changes soon (like the next few days).
Maybe insomnia can hit and i'll show you the 10th level version.
The Druid 'isn't core', you have taken a Velociraptor, which is not a prescribed Druid companion; the stats are 'fan fic' and not allowable in core campaigns. I can see why you'd take a Velo, the stealth capacity is outstanding - but if you stick to RAW you won't find it as sexy... indeed you'll probably have to park most companions if you want to seak about undetected.
Dinosaur (Deinonychus, Velociraptor)
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 60 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d6), bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 11, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 14; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/druid.html#animal-companions-184
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet.
Doesn't say you get the base land speed...?
And noted on the other correction,
I saw this guy - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dinosaur/velocira ptor and wondered what the!?
Anyhow, I hope your campaign is in a dinosaur setting!
That said, the Druid pet you linked has no racial stealth modifier, and must buy all his skills, including stealth. With only 4 points or so to allocate he wont be that crash hot at Stealth.
The Advantage to a Rogue. Depends on your GM.
2nd Ed = Once had a GM who keep changing how magic works, what spells were and were not allowed, do or do not need magic ink, how many of this one week, but not the next, etc etc etc...one week OD&D, next week 1st ed rules etc...cleric list of spell was open one week and restricted the next, then back to being open... etc.
End up making a Rogue because skills, weapons, are pretty much easy to use, up front costs, up front about what you can and can not do. Was just easier and much more fun to play. Also, neutral rogue was allowed to be greedy with wanting money and searching bodies, while my neutral good cleric was not allowed to search dead orcs after a fight.
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet.
Doesn't say you get the base land speed...?
Yeah, they hid this one good. Its NOWHERE that you'd expect to look for it.
Beastshape is a polymorph effect.
All polymorph effects give you the creatures base speed.
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
Anyhow, I hope your campaign is in a dinosaur setting!
Like the goat at the nightclub... its on the list. And the devs seem to like them.
That said, the Druid pet you linked has no racial stealth modifier, and must buy all his skills, including stealth. With only 4 points or so to allocate he wont be that crash hot at Stealth.
this version had a +12, off of 1 skill point.
1 rank +4 dex +3 trained (it is a class skill for them) +4 size bonus (which is what you're probably forgetting, pathfinder lowered the 4 per size difference for combat maneuvers but kept them for stealth)
Druid definitely works for comparison to a rogue, but wouldn't a ranger work better?
A couple of things....
Rogues can scout equally across many terrain types, the druid not so much.
The Druid 'isn't core', you have taken a Velociraptor, which is not a prescribed Druid companion; the stats are 'fan fic' and not allowable in core campaigns. I can see why you'd take a Velo, the stealth capacity is outstanding - but if you stick to RAW you won't find it as sexy... indeed you'll probably have to park most companions if you want to seak about undetected.
From a more liberal viewpoint, I don't even know any GM's who'd cop to a druid morphing into a Dinosaur (anachronistic creatures they have never seen) nor take one as a pet for the same reason.
I don't have any issues with the dinosaur being available to the druid both as a companion and as a wild shape form. It is listed in the Core Rulebook on page 54. Wild Shape has changed enough so that you get some of the abilities but not enough to be nearly as dangerous as in 3.5. What he got for wild shaping into the dinosaur is:
1) +2 Strength
2) +2 Natural AC
3) 2 Talon attacks (1d8), 1 bite (1d6), 2 foreclaws (1d4)
4) Scent
5) Low-light vision
What did he not get?
1) Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution bonuses of +7, +1, and +7 respectively
2) +3 to hit
3) +3 damage per attack
4) +1 dodge AC, +3 Natural Armor
5) +1 Reflex
6) +3 Fortitude
7) +3 hit points/level (15 in this case)
8) Pounce
9) +9 Acrobatics, +8 Perception, and +9 Stealth
===
Against small groups, the rogue has the advantage. Against more powerful, but smaller numbers, the druid is tied or has a slight advantage.
Two bugbears, 1 leopard.
The rogue would attack one of the bugbears first with a +8 to hit AC 16. That gives the rogue a 65% chance of hitting. He will probably kill the bugbear that he hits. Then it's time to roll initiative. He could probably take out the second bugbear in round two if he hits. Then it's time to either call in the cavalry or just run to the rest of the party so they can all deal with the cat.
The druid would have a +5 to hit AC 16 which gives him a 50% chance of hitting (if he charges). He would still only have 1 attack. The raptor can go next with 1 attack as well since the animal companion raptor doesn't have pounce at level 5. Sure, the raptor can hit 80% of the time he the druid cast greater magic fang, the raptor charges, flanks, and attacks with his best attack: one talon but the damage is a paltry 1d6+2 or 5.5 points of damage. So if the druid and his companion both attack the same bugbear, combined they have done 10 points of damage. The druid is then in the middle of a fight that is outnumbering him 3-2.
Even if the group spots the rogue, he can probably take out one of them before he needs to get out of dodge. The scouting druid is in worse shape because now either him or his companion can be flanked. The rogue is in no such predicament.
What happens if the group is 4 lizardfolk? The rogue still has the advantage (no resources to spend). The rogue can very easily take out 1 lizardfolk in the surprise round and a second before they even get to attack. He is then dealing with only 2 lizardfolk. If he is in a decent position, like in a tree, then they can only attack him with their javelins. He will probably survive the attacks. On round 2 he can then leap from the tree as a charge attack, taking out a third lizardfolk. That would leave only 1 lizardfolk which should probably run at this point but if he stands and fights, he is still probably going down in the next round or two.
The druid will be unable to get himself into such a position. He does have spells at his disposal so he can probably take out one lizardfolk on the surprise round with the flaming sphere. The raptor probably won't but can certainly stand his ground as he charges into the fray. Next round, the druid moves the flaming sphere and takes out a second lizardfolk. The raptor takes out the 3rd and turns his attention on the fourth. Again, the last lizardfolk should run but if he stays, he is most likely going to die.
What happens if the encounter is just a single monster? What if it's a djinni? The rogue can have a problem. Persistent Image is going to be an issue. The rogue has the advantage to avoid being seen (+12 to the +6 for the djinni at 30 feet). So if the rogue can get a single shot off, he can deal 16 points of damage to the 52 hit points the djinni has. The next round the rogue may not be able to get a shot off before the djinni goes invisible. Rogue is in a tough spot. It's time to call for help and go completely on the defensive.
The druid is in no better a situation. The druid has a lower attack bonus, deals less damage, and still can't deal with the invisible djinni on round two. Scent will help, assuming the djinni stays nearby. The druid or his companion is without a magic weapon so if the djinni goes gaseous, one will be useless. The djinni's whirlwind attack requires a Reflex save which neither the druid nor his companion is going to do well against.
The animal companion and wild shape aren't like they used to be. I don't take issue with someone using a fun companion and changing into a fun animal. Neither one is game breaking.