Optimizing a Master Spy...


Advice


Hey everyone...

I'm looking for some help on optimizing my new character in a PF campaign. I've been watching these boards for some time now and most of the time find a lot of the advice very helpful and have guided me in char-gen in the past and have made some pretty solid characters.

Character Background:

Orphaned on the street, brought up in the roguish backstreets of a city. Bastard child of a noble. Somehow got caught up in this world catastrophic event. My brother, whom I plan on gaming with as a duo, is also a rogue.

Now after all that here is my Build...

Spoiler:

Stats:

Str: 7
Dex: 16 (then +2 from human racial to make 18)
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 15 (all stat point investments here for the rest of leveling)

Feats:
LVL Feat/Talent
1 Deceitful (to qualify for Master Spy Presige class)
Bonus Teamwork feat (Precise Strike) (my partner and I are both
picking up this feat)
2 Rog. Talent: Weapon Finess
3 Weapon Focus (dagger)
4 Rog. Talent: Combat Trick (Two weapon Fighting)
5 Force of Personality (if able) or Teamwork feat
(Overwhelming Flank)
6 Rog. Talent: ??
7 Iron Will
8 Start Master Spy PrC

And that is my build up until I start my prestige class...one of the big questions I have is should I start Master Spy at 8 as shown above or should I go for the one more level in rogue and get Improved Uncanny Dodge...then at CLvl 9 start Master Spy.

I apologize for the long post but would greatly appreciate some advice...the two rogue classes are planning on trying to rely on each other to be more effective...but when alone not to completely fall on our faces. My partner's rogue is going to invest heavily into feigning so he can as a move action flat foot the target and then evetually take opportunist as advance rogue talent so that everytime I make a successful attack he gets to attack (which would inturn be a sneak attack)...thanks again!!


i would have at least a 10 STR

probably take deceitful as the last feat before you go into the PRC (so you can get the other feats to be combat effective sooner)

otherwise i don't know rogues well


Is the APG usable?

If yes, have you looked at some of the bard options?


Doc Cosmic wrote:

Is the APG usable?

If yes, have you looked at some of the bard options?

Master Spy is from the APG, so I'd assume that it's available =p


I have not played one yet, however I must say from looking over the APG I would suggest the following could be good entries:

Alchemist -- Depending on what you want out of it, the bombs and discoveries can make for a very nice poisoner, and explosions expert. You need a little time to make the extracts, but given that you can make them on the fly easier than the wizard can change spells giving you more flexibility. You'll have lots of skill points and the ability to use many good spell trigger items (as well as make potions -- an useful *anyone* ability).

An Inquisitor *Could* make a good spy but it would be an awkward fit for most inquisitor archtypes.

Bards:

The Court Bard, Detective, Sandman, and Street performer bard variants could do wonders with the master spy.

9 levels of urban Druid gets you several nice class features and wild shape for small and medium creatures -- a useful disguise most people won't even think to look for.

Monk of the Empty Hand could make good use of anything he could reach if things go badly and wouldn't have to fear a lack of armor. He has a decent amount of skill points which, if agumented with traits to get a few key skills as class skills, would make an excellent choice.

An Infiltrator Ranger with favored enemy on the various humaniods could make a really nice master spy, even if he uses the ranger skirmisher variant too, as could the urban ranger.

A plain rogue is a good choice, as is the cutpurse, investigator, poisoner, rake, spy, thug, trapsmith, and possibly the sniper.

While normally not a recommendation, if you don't mind losing the casting a conjuration or enchantment wizard could really bring in a lot of unexpected tricks to use with the class features of the master spy. Possibly mixing in some Arcane Trickster when you have the time could yield unexpected results too.


Propane wrote:
Doc Cosmic wrote:

Is the APG usable?

If yes, have you looked at some of the bard options?

Master Spy is from the APG, so I'd assume that it's available =p

HAHA Good point! Guess I should really wait for after the post-work haze wears off before I post...

Well, my suggestion is to determine if you want spells or not.

If you do not want to cast spells, Abe has listed some great ideas.

If you do want to cast spells, you have a lot of decisions to make. Such as, do you want to go with arcane trickster instead and be a near full caster:
Wizard 6, Rogue 1, Master Spy 1, Arcane Trickster 10, Wizard 2.

If you absolutely have to have the Master Spy prestige class, that is not a bad path, however, the Sandman Bard actually gives you almost ALL of the Master Spy abilities, with a whole slew of additional abilities.

So, which way do you want to go? Spells or no Spells.


Well, spellcasting actually I don't rank very highly at all for this character...I've played way too many casters in the past so I was trying to stay more melee oriented...

I will consider the swap of deceitful to right before Iron Will as well...and just get my two pre-req feats right before going for my PrC.

I consider str and wisdom my two dump stats, because a rogues damage (esp with daggers) is pretty useless even with a decent str modifier...It's all about the sneak attack damage so that's why I didn't consider having str. What i didn't list is my skills and I plan on invest points into climb and a few other str based skills to counter my str dump and same with perception to counter wisdoms penalty.

Is there really that huge of an advantage to go caster based Spy over rogue melee...when I come out of the PrC...I will only be behind by one sneak attack die and my saves will be better than if I stayed as a full rogue...I'll just lose out on Adv Rogue talents. That is why I choose the rogue/Master Spy combo...


I really wouldn't dump your wisdom.

Several reasons:

First you're a spy -- as such you need the best will save you can get -- people are going to be trying to read your mind, scry you, dominate you, etc... in order to avoid this you need to know you are going to make those saves.

Secondly -- A large part of the skills you'll need as a spy are covered with wisdom... Sense Motive and Perception are the obvious ones, but Heal is almost critically important as well -- after all if you want to make that death look natural you'll need to know the body well enough to know what to do.

Spell use in some form or fashion is going to be needed -- you can't disguise yourself as a cleric/druid/wizard/sorcerer/bard/summoner/alchemist/oracle/magus/paladin/r anger/witch/adept/etc without some means of casting spells. Considering that list is over half the possible classes out there this is an angle you'll need some means of covering -- now you don't need the uperhigh level spells -- just up through 3rd~4th level would be fine (unless you are specifically impersonating a really high level caster) and all those spells really -- really -- help with getting places/ listening in on things/ not being seen while sneaking/ lies/ etc.

Now I'm not saying these things from a mechanical stand point -- this is role play stuff primarily -- you're going to be pretending to be other people -- as such you need the means to make it believable.


Abe is 100% correct, you are going to need some spellcasting, not a lot of it though. Which is why (now knowing what you have in mind), I am going to suggest Sandman Bard 10/Master Spy 10. It'll get you a very narrow selection of spells with even less that you can cast, BUT you will get all the spells necessary for the tasks Abe mentions.

In addition, a sandman bard can...steal spells, cast spells stealthy, is a master of deception (will synergize nice with the spy's ability), can gain sneak attack bonus to save DCs (HUGE), Trap Sense, and Sneak Attack.

That is a pretty nice list of goodies, so nice, you may decide to just go straight Sandman Bard 20. But, that is up to you :)

***********
As a side note: Bard do not get Disable Device as a class skill, not even the Sandman Bard...so you will want to purchase the Vagabond Child trait and may Disable Device a class skill (with a +1 trait bonus). After getting that feat, you are...for all intents and purposes, an effective rogue.


As master spy you are basicly playing a skill monkey rogue that specializes in disguise and bluff. It seems like more of an role playing class that can assassinate well. Just be aware of what kind of campaign you're walking into. I was really passionate about wanting to roll a master spy, but after talking to my GM and the way I wanted to play it, we both agreed that I would be having 2 hour monologues while everyone else twiddled their thumbs. It's a very hard class to work into a group, and it's really designed more for solo work and information trafficking. Which in most cases a bard can fill those spots and still be more party viable.


A Master Spy is not a combat class. It's predominantly an RP/assassination class. If you find yourself in a lot of 'fair fight' situations than you're doing it wrong. That said, your main weapon is subterfuge and ingenuity.

Now you could go bard and enhance your skills with magic... but I find a rogue (spy or poisoner variant) to be the best choice.

Stack int, cha, and wis as your good stats, choose rogue talents that help you poison or that enhance key skills, and survive until 5th level MS when you start gaining your near gamebreaking abilities.

If you have to fight, rely on the unwitting saps that make up the party... supporting them with poison attacks (blowdarts are fun), aid another, flanking with sneak attacks, using situation altering feats like Antagonize and Imp/Greater Cheap Trick, and ingenuity with mundane equipment (caltrops, marbles, flour, and various alchemical items) will be among the best tactics you should employ.

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