Hi everyone, i've converted a mind flayer from 3.5 for house use and i would like to know what the community think.
As you'll notice, i moved his spell-like ability to a sorcerer based spell-list (akind to the 3.5 psionic version), i removed plane shift too.
I upped his CR to 10, and Mind Blast is 1d6+1 rnds now, not 3d4. I added a Fort DC to extract too.
So here we go, waiting your comments : )
Mind Flayer
XP 9,600 CR 10
LE Medium aberration, sorcerer 10 equivalent
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; detect magic, Perception +16
Defense___________________________________________
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 13; (+2 Dex, +3 natural,+4 Shield)
hp 65 (10d8+20)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +12
SR 21
Offense___________________________________________
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 4 tentacles +9 (1d4+1 plus Grab)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Spells known : Psionic-like ability (CL 10th)
5th— (4 per day) dominate person (DC 20)
4th— (6 per day) dimension door, charm monster (DC 19)
3rd— (7 per day) major image (DC 18) , hold person (DC 18), suggestion (DC 18)
2nd—(7 per day) touch of idiocy (DC 17), detect tought (DC 17), levitate, blur
1st— (7 per day) charm person (DC 16), hypnotism (DC 16), magic missile, shield, ventriloquism (DC 16)
(may Quicken 1st lvl spell using 5th lvl slot, like shield)
0— (At-will) detect magic, ghost sound (DC 15), read magic, mage hand
Statistics__________________________________________
Str 12, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 21, Wis 17, Cha 18
Base Atk +7; CMB +12; CMD 20
Feats Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Combat Casting,
Weapon Finesse, Quicken Spell
Skills Bluff +13, Diplomacy +13, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (any) +15, Fly +15, Perception +16, Sense Motive +13, Spellcraft +18, Stealth +15,
Languages Mind Flayer, Aklo, Undercommon, Telepathy 100 ft
Ecology___________________________________________
Environment any underground
Organization solitary, pair or group (3-5) plus slaves (vary)
Treasure double
Special Abilities
Mind Blast (Sp) This psionic attack is a 60 ft long cone. Anyone caught by the psychic surge must succed a DC 19 Will save or be stunned for 1d6+1 rounds. The save DC is charisma based. This ability is the equivalent of a 5th lvl spell.
Tentacle Grabbing (Ex) A mind flayer need to reach his foe’s head to grab him with his tentacles if the opponent is Huge or larger. In addition, a mind flayer who begins his turn with at least one tentacle attached may try to attache his remaining tentacles in a single grapple action. The mind flayer gains a cumulative +1 per additionnal attached tentacles to his CMB while attempting a grapple if more than a single tentacle is attached at the beginning of his turn.
Extract (Ex) A mind flayer that begins its turn with all 4 tentacle attached and that makes a succesful grapple check may try to extract the opponent’s brain. The opponent must then succeed a DC 17 Fortitude save or instantly die, his brain consumed. This power is useless against contructs, elementals, oozes, plants and undeads. It is not instantly fatal to foes with multiple heads, such as ettins and hydras.
he should have 5 feats, not just 3 :D
i like it though a couple of things
1) AC seems a little low
2)stats also seem a little low
3) tentacle grabbing: shouldn't it be huge or smaller?
4) rather than group (3-5) it should be inquisition (3-5) no?
1) Yes thats something i noticed too. But the original Mind Flayer had AC 15... +2 dex, +3 natural. I could upgrade his natural, but dont want to be way farther than +4.
2) Still, they're higher than the original stats (15 con from 12, 21 int from 19, 18 cha from 17) Could maybe up the dex to 16+ which would correct the AC (to 21 with the +4 natural fix)
3) thanks for the typo, its right but not clear enough. I'll fix it with : A mind flayer need to reach his foe’s head to grab him with his tentacles so it can’t grab if the opponent is Huge or larger and his head is out of reach.
4) hmm yes in the original but i removed the inquisition part from ecology and basically its a group : )
Oooo and Omega9999, if you look carefully there's 5 feats : P
Thx for the feedback, keep it coming.
I disagree with the extract ability having a save, that was one of the deadliest parts of fighting mindflayers. If you can defeat it with a simple Fort save, then you have reduced the danger level.
Most stats seem quite low for that CR. I know they weren't that high to begin with, but some of the stats in 3e were way out of whack for their CR, so drastic measures might have to be taken. Plus, you increased the CR.
I'd generally increase its HD to 15 and add a bit of dex and con, to get near to what the charts recommend for a CR 10 critter (which, for example, is twice as many HP)
Use the Rakshasa (also CR 10, and worth it in Pathfinder) as a guideline.
Most stats seem quite low for that CR. I know they weren't that high to begin with, but some of the stats in 3e were way out of whack for their CR, so drastic measures might have to be taken. Plus, you increased the CR.
I'd generally increase its HD to 15 and add a bit of dex and con, to get near to what the charts recommend for a CR 10 critter (which, for example, is twice as many HP)
Use the Rakshasa (also CR 10, and worth it in Pathfinder) as a guideline.
Thx im working on it.
3.5 monster are way harder to convert to Pathfinder than i tought and the mind flayer became very apparent with its low hp/stats/AC in 3.5.Do you guys think i should go with a Spell-like ability version or should i keep it on a sorcerer lvl spellcasting to mimic psionic ability??
I'll buff its stats a little, and i tought lowering the CR to 9 too.
Here is the new buffed version! Its weird having higher Hit Dice than CR 9... guess its an old 3.5 bug :p
I think its nomral they get lower Hit point since mind flayer are pure caster, higher than their CR.
So whats your thinking about this second version? Here we go
Mind Flayer
XP 6,400 CR 9
LE Medium aberration
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; detect magic, Perception +16
Defense___________________________________________ AC 23, touch 14, flat-footed 15; (+4 Dex, +5 natural,+4 Shield)
hp 75 (10d8+30)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +12
SR 21
Offense___________________________________________
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 4 tentacles +11 (1d4+1 plus Grab)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Spells known : Psionic spell-like abilities (CL 10th)
5th— (4 per day) dominate person (DC 21)
4th— (6 per day) dimension door, charm monster (DC 20)
3rd— (7 per day) major image (DC 19) , hold person (DC 19), suggestion (DC 19)
2nd—(7 per day) touch of idiocy (DC 18), detect tought (DC 18), levitate, blur
1st— (7 per day) charm person (DC 17), hypnotism (DC 17), magic missile, shield, ventriloquism (DC 17)
(may Quicken 1st lvl spell using 5th lvl slot, like shield)
0— (At-will) detect magic, ghost sound (DC 16), read magic, mage hand
Statistics__________________________________________
Str 13, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 22, Wis 17, Cha 18
Base Atk +7; CMB +12; CMD 22
Feats Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Combat Casting,
Weapon Finesse, Quicken Spell
Skills Bluff +13, Diplomacy +13, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (any) +16, Fly +17, Perception +16, Sense Motive +13, Spellcraft +19, Stealth +17,
Languages Mind Flayer, Aklo, Undercommon, Telepathy 100 ft
Ecology___________________________________________
Environment any underground
Organization solitary, pair or group (3-5) plus slaves (vary)
Treasure double
Special Abilities
Mind Blast (Sp) This psionic attack is a 60 ft long cone. Anyone caught by this psychic surge must succeed a DC 19 Will save or be stunned for 1d6+1 rounds. The save DC is charisma based. This ability is the equivalent of a 5th lvl spell.
Tentacle Grabbing (Ex) A mind flayer need to reach his foe’s head to grab him with his tentacles so it can’t grab if the opponent is Huge or larger and his head is out of reach. In addition, a mind flayer who begins his turn with at least one tentacle attached may try to attache his remaining tentacles in a single grapple action. The mind flayer gains a cumulative +2 per additionnal attached tentacles to his CMB while attempting a grapple if more than a single tentacle is attached at the beginning of his turn.
Extract (Ex) A mind flayer that begins its turn with all 4 tentacle attached and that makes a succesful grapple check may try to extract the opponent’s brain. The opponent must then succeed a DC 19 Fortitude save or instantly die, his brain consumed. This power is useless against contructs, elementals, oozes, plants and undeads. It is not instantly fatal to foes with multiple heads, such as ettins and hydras.
Psionic spell-like abilities (Sp) Mind flayers spells known does not represent standard arcane spellcasting ability.They are pure expression of absolute mind power, thus they are treated exactly as spell-like ability for rule purposes.
75 HP is still way too low. You should take a look at the suggested monster values in the bestiary, they will give you a good guideline.
I disagree. The threat that a mind flayer presents does not rely on a ton of HP imho. I recall them being described as rather frail.
75 HP is still way too low. You should take a look at the suggested monster values in the bestiary, they will give you a good guideline.I disagree. The threat that a mind flayer presents does not rely on a ton of HP imho. I recall them being described as rather frail.
Yay im more inclined on Phazzle opinion. Mind Flayer always been frail creature but powerful psionic caster. They should not be on the front line of melee but more staying out of harm while levitating or with dimension door.
I don't think it would be correct to give him 18+ Con.
Especially if we consider the original 45 hp of 3.5 edition, 75 is a good buff without making it a melee creature akin to the Rakshasa.
I'm still hesitating, should i move its spell knwon to a Spell-like ability system like the original or do you guys think its better with sorcerer lvl? I even tought about forbidding it from nercomancy, evocation and conjuration school.
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I've seen posts on here before where Paizo staff have discouraged conversions of WotC IP, because WotC could essentially sue Paizo for hosting an illegal use of WotC IP, even if the poster had nothing to do with Paizo other than putting it on these messageboards. I would assume that Paizo's lawyers OKed all the avatars that depict WotC IP...likely because the artists sold the rights to Paizo, not WotC. I flagged the post, and I'm a bit surprised that no Paizo staff has come by to delete it or declare it OK.
I'm not trying to be a jerk by flagging it, but I'd really rather a couple of people think I'm a jerk than WotC sue Paizo.
As for conversion...there are 3.5 stats in the Monster Manual. Change the name of a couple of skill and calculate a CMB and CMD.
Or you can slap the Eldritch Spawn template from the new Book of Monster Templates onto various humanoids and see which one strikes your fancy the most.
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I've also been interested in the idea of SKR's "serial numbers filed off" concepts he posts on FB from time to time (now that i recall, i dont remember seeing them in quite a while..). A high level Human Aberrant or Arcane Sorcerer could fit as a "mind flayer" as well. I'm sure there's any number of ideas that would fit just as well. I love illithids just like the next guy, but I don't see the reason to convert it from 3.5 to PF. With all the monsters and classes and templates available to PF, you can mix and match to make what "feels" best as a "mind flayer".
I've also been interested in the idea of SKR's "serial numbers filed off" concepts he posts on FB from time to time (now that i recall, i dont remember seeing them in quite a while..). A high level Human Aberrant or Arcane Sorcerer could fit as a "mind flayer" as well. I'm sure there's any number of ideas that would fit just as well. I love illithids just like the next guy, but I don't see the reason to convert it from 3.5 to PF. With all the monsters and classes and templates available to PF, you can mix and match to make what "feels" best as a "mind flayer".
Ya sorry for the whole IP stuff, thats only because I need a mind flayer for my game, underdark in Forgotten realms. Its not like im trying to sell it, its for house purpose only :)
Ooo and btw Kthulhu, no prob for the flag, they can delete it if they want. And you obviously never converted 3.5 monster to pathfinder if you think thats as easy to balance than just slapping CMD and CMB.
But anyway guys, thx for everyone that gave constructive feedback. :)
That's appreciated.
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He has an improved Fly skill, but no inherent ability to practice it.
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).
Levitation doesn't require Fly checks, as far as I can see.
I think he needs a means of remaining airborne for long periods, either as a permanent innate ability (like the beholder), or as a spell-like ability that can be used multiple times/day (in case of dispelling).
Given the target CR, most PCs who will face it will have the ability to fly, and if he is land-bound, or reliant on mere levitation, it will be a short fight.
Just calling it a Cephlavore isn't enough. You need some fundamental changes. How about causing it to zombify it's victiums? These literally brainless zombies will help defend the Cephlavore while it is eating.
Best way to convert a Mindflayer is to lock it in a room untill it is almost starved to death while outside someone is prostletizing whichever religeon you want it to convert to. Every once in a while if it is saying neve to much open a skylight to the sun for a few moments... :)
I use the Psionic Mindflayer and work from there... as thats the First Illithid I ever saw in the First monster Manual :)
heres my version Of them
Brain Shredder (Ulhuthid) CR 8
XP 4800
LE Medium Abberation
Init +6; Senses Darkvision 60ft. Low-light vision ; Perception +14
DEFENSE
AC 19, touch 16, flat-footed 17; (+2 Dex, +3 deflection, +3 natural, +1 size)
HP 44 (8d8+8)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +12; Racial boni: Cha +bonus as Deflection to ac and all saves
DR -- SR 25 (11+HD+Cha+Wis)
Defensive Abilities ------
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 4 Tentacles + 8(1d4+1 plus grab),
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Extract, Mind Blast (DC 17)
Spell-Like abilities
Constant – Detect thoughts (DC 15)
At will – Levitate,
3/day - Charm monster (DC 17), Plane shift, Suggestion (DC 16)
Spells (CL 9th Enchanter)
5th - Mind Fog (DC 20*), Telekinesis (DC 19)
4th – Crushing Despair(DC 19*), Phantasmal killer (DC 18), Confusion (DC19*), stoneskin
3rd – Haste, Fireball(DC 17) Deep Slumber (DC 18*) nondetection
2nd 6 – touch of idiocity(, Summon Swarm, Acid Arrow, Invisibility, Hideous laughter(DC17*),see invisibility
1st – Sleep(DC 16*), Magic missle, true strike, mage armour, Protection from good
0 - ghost sound, Acid Splash, Mage hand, Detect Magic
*indicates enchantment
STATISTICS
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 19, Wis 17, Cha 17
Base Atk +6; CMB +7 (+2 grapple with every other tentacle); CMD 17
Feats Combat CastingB,, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Spell Focus(Ench), SpellPenetration
Skills ; bluff +18, Diplomancy+14; disguise+14, stealth+13,Intimidate+14, Knowledge(arcana)+15, Percerption+14 sense motive +18
Racial Modifiers +4 bluff +4 sense motive
Languages Undercommon, Aklo Infernal, Terran, Common
ECOLOGY
Environment Underground
Organization YYY (X-XX)
Treasure ddouble standart
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Spells : A Mind Flayer Cast Spells as a Lvl9 Enchanter. His Prohibided Schools Are Evokation and Necromancy
Extract (Ex): When A Mindflayer grapples A Foe with all four Tentacles and succed another Grapple Check , He extracts the Wictims Brain Killing it. (if he only has only one )
Mind Blast (Sp): This Psionic Attack thats usuable at will is a cone 60ft long..
Anyone Caught In this cone Must succed a Willsave (DC17) or be stunned 3d4 rounds.
Mind Armour (Su): A Mind Flayer adds his Wis Mod as a DeflectionBonus to his AC and as a Racial Bonus to his Saves.
Creative Director
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When updating a monster to Pathifinder, your best friend should be Table 1–1 in the Bestiary.
When I update monsters, I really REALLY try hard to not change their CR at all. Only in rare cases do I succumb to the CR change (usually for things like krakens who are enormous with the magic combination of lots of attacks and high STR scores).
Were I to convert a mind flayer, which I don't want to do publicly, I would try to retain its CR at 8 and then adjust its stats, HD, and other features so that it would more closely match the expected numbers on Table 1–1. It's okay for one of those values to be a bit high, since monsters should be good at SOMETHING (in the mind flayer's case, that would probably be its ability save DCs), but pegging any other key monster element from Table 1–1 (such as AC, hp, average damage, attack rolls, save DCs, and saving throws) much lower than the expected level for that CR will only result in a monster with a glass jaw that won't behave properly at its CR; it'll die way too quickly unless the situation is optimized. And the expectation for monsters in optimized situations isn't that they should function as expected for their CR, but should function ABOVE their expected CR.
So in updating a mind flayer, I'd get a LOT more generous with its ability scores to start, so that a high Con and Dex would help to bolster AC and hp. I'd give it higher natural armor, and maybe even some way to use its Cha modifier as a deflection or insight bonus to AC. The REALLY tricky part would be figuring out how to make its signature attack actually work well at CR 8, since it needs to be pretty good at grabbing folks and it doesn't really do a lot of damage with its tentacles. Giving it sneak attack damage is one way to bolster low damage, but that's so out of the norm for mind flayers I'd avoid it. Maybe it needs claw attacks?
In any event... use Table 1–1. It really does help.
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Creative Director
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Were I to convert a mind flayer, which I don't want to do publiclyTranslation: We at Paizo long ago did our own PFRPG versions of the WotC IP monsters that we like. We just can't publish them.
We all know it's true!
Actually, nope.
Turns out the game works fine without beholders and mind flayers. Just as D&D works fine without iconic Pathfinder monsters like pugwampis and Treerazer.
I say, go back to the roots of the monster, pre-game.
That's how I created Ooglers.
There was a comic book with a race of floating eyeballs that could controll humans hypnoticly. One forced an astronaught to bring it back to Earth. Once it turned away from him he tried to stab it from behind and got dissolved by it's acid surface. You could only kill it by piercing the iris. The Ooglers are not as invunerable. That's not the only floating eyes I remember either.
In any case, I would like to hear more about these Star Spawn.
I had reason to run a single night with a group of relatively new-to-the-game players who have seen a lot of iconic D&D stuff. I've never in 10 years of playing seen a Mind Flayer, but for them it felt like an encounter I had to include. I've been holding off posting this because I didn't want of them to find it.
As James mentions, this is a classic psionic mind flayer, advanced as per the recommended tables. For the record, he gave a party of 7 characters (with two animal companions) a run for their money. All PCs were 7th level.
GROGSHT CR9 6,400
“They’re making naked art starring me. Nude. Hey, I suggest you hold my robe.”
Mind flayer
CE Medium aberration (psionic)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60ft, low-light vision; Perception +20
DEFENSES
AC 24, touch 12, flat-footed 22 (+9 armor, +3 natural, +2 Dex)
hp 91 (14d8+28)
SR 25
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +14
OFFENSE
Speed 40ft
Melee 4 tentacles +14 (1d4+1/x2 plus grab)
Attack Options extract
mind blast (60ft cone, DC17; stunned 3d4 rounds)
Telepath Powers Known (ML 9th; concentration +14); Combat Manifestation; PP 90 [85 avail.]
5th — mind probeDC20, psionic plane shift
4th — intellect fortress, psionic dimension door, psionic dominateDC19
3rd — body adjustment, dispel psionics, psionic darkvision†
2nd — body equilibrium, ego whipDC17, id insinuationDC17, psionic levitate, psionic suggestionDC17, read thoughtsDC17
1st — defensive precognition, mind thrustDC16, psionic charm personDC16
at will – detect psionics
† — already manifested
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (3)
STATISTICS
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 17, Cha 17
Base Atk +10; CMB +11; CMD 23; (+4 with grapple)
Feats Combat Manifestation1, Improved GrappleB, Improved Initiative3, Weapon Finesse5, Weapon Focus(tentacles)7, Toughness9, Greater Grapple11, Speed of Thought13
Skills Acrobatics +19, Bluff +20, Escape Artist +19, Knowledge(psionics) +22, Psicraft +22, Sense Motive +17, Stealth +10, Use Psionic Device +17; ACP -6
Languages telepathy 100ft
Gear 10,500 gp
6,000gp psychoactive skin of ectoplasmic armor; ACP -6
4,000gp cloak of resistance +2
450gp potion of cure light wounds (3)
50gp
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For those of you who prefer psionic illithid, Psionics Unleased, Dreamscarred Press's PFRPG psionic sourcebook, is availible for pre-order. And if you pre-order, you gain access to a late beta of the entire project (minus glossary, at least last time I checked). Might be helpful building your psionic mind flayer.
I personally prefer a mixture of psionic and "regular" mind flayers.
Actually the Psionic are the Regular Mind Flayers the non Psionic are the new abberations... we started with them being Psionic ;)
Actually the Psionic are the Regular Mind Flayers the non Psionic are the new abberations... we started with them being Psionic ;)
The Psionic are the original and regular. Yes, the magical MFs were created for gamers who did not want to mess with the Psionic system.
I did not put in a "Fixed that for you" because some people take offense to that.
What do you think is the best version of PF converted Mind Flayer?
You can PM it to me if you want.
This board does not have PM's.