Da quanto leggo, sia la versione inglese che quella italiana dicono che se l'attacco mortale ( che deve essere lanciato dopo 3 round di studio dell'avversario e deve essere portato a termine in max altri 3 round ) viene individuato prima che sia portato a termine ( l'assassino viene visto mentre si avvicina o roba simile ) l'effetto mortale fallisce ( niente paralisi o morte immediata ) ma se a detto bersaglio è comunque negato il bonus di schivare della destrezza alla AC ( armor class ) l'assassino può effettuare un normale attacco furtivo.
Effettivamente anche io faccio prima guardando la versione inglese.
Ciao :)
In case someone who doesn't know italian is reading, i wrote the italian translation of the assassin PRC Death Attack ability
Non sono d'accordo. La regola dice che l'attacco mortale fallisce se l'assassino è individuato o riconosciuto come nemico dalla vitima".
Da come la vedo io, potrebbe anche chiacchierare tranquillamente con la vittima e proseguire lo studio per L'Attacco Mortale, fino a che la vittima non si rende conto di essere in pericolo.
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I disagree. The rule says "The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy ".
Reading it, I see how the Assassin could even chat with his victim and prepare the Death Attack, as long as the victim fails to understand the danger.
Non sono d'accordo. La regola dice che l'attacco mortale fallisce se l'assassino è individuato o riconosciuto come nemico dalla vitima".
Da come la vedo io, potrebbe anche chiacchierare tranquillamente con la vittima e proseguire lo studio per L'Attacco Mortale, fino a che la vittima non si rende conto di essere in pericolo.
La richiesta era sulla regola nuda e cruda....nel caso che dici tu il tentativo dell'assassino dovrebbe essere accompagnato da prove di camuffare e raggirare. Se io giocando un assassino ho l'opportunità di avvicinarmi così tanto col cavolo che uso l'abilità ( che secondo me è una gran vaccata, preferisco il normale ladro agli alti livelli ); ci vado con un arma avvelenata e la uso a sorpresa ( attacco furtivo + veleno = morte garantita e senza tiro salvezza )
The question was about the raw rule alone. In your example the assassin would have to be disguised ( acting and disguise skill checks ) to chat with his victim. If i , playing an assassin, have the chance of approaching a victim that close the hell i use the Death Attack skill ( which i believe being b*****it , i prefer the regular rogue at high levels ); i take a poisoned weapon and use it out of surprise ( Sneak Attack + poison = sure death and no save )
1)After the Assassin have been studing for three rounds his victim, can he be seen moving and attaking (complete round)without loosing his death aattack???? I mean the rule states that he can't be detected but for exemple: if he is hidden studing the victim and after three rounds he comes out (it means that he is no more hidden or using stealth anymore, but just normally moving) make his six steps and make his death attack (to a victim with no dextrity bonus on Ac for exeple)? is that ok with the rules?
By the strictest reading, if he's no longer using Stealth, then he has been detected and he can't use his Death Attack.
But if that's the case, then it doesn't make much sense to say "if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy" -- how can you recognize an assassin as an enemy without detecting him?
I played an assassin once and we had lots of arguments about the wording (e.g. Does a weapon-like spell count as a melee weapon for a Death Attack?). If I were the GM, I'd probably allow the assassin to make his death attack as long as it was on the surprise round before his victim could act, even if the assassin is no longer hiding.
D'accordo con Hogarth ; e comunque , ripeto , il manuale mi pare abbastanza chiaro finchè si rimane sull'atto dell'attacco in se. Anche se l'assassino ( per qualsivoglia ragione ) non può più usare l'attacco mortale può ancora fare attacchi furtivi sul bersaglio originale. Qualsiasi altro caso ha troppe varianti per dare aiuti più specifici in questo ambito.
Agree with Hogarth ; anyway, again,the corebook is quite clear as long as we speak of the attacking action alone. Even if the assassin ( whatever the reason ) can no longer complete a death attack he can still inflict sneak attacks on his intended target. Any other case has far too many variants to give more specific help in this thread.
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The assassin just can't be seen studying the target, after he studies he has 3 rounds to make the death attack, but it must be a sneak attack. So if he is spotted the attack isnt a sneak attack therefore death attack will not work, There is a specific clause stating that if the death attack fails the attack can still be a sneak attack if the target has lost his dex to AC.
So in short no the assassin cant walk out of hiding and make the death attack unless he is not perceived as an enemy.
So, how could a pg use a death attack?
I should be near target to attack him, and in ANY case, if i'm near for a melee attack i always am detected, so i never can use my death attack unless i'm invisible or my target is blinded. So, why death attack... i mean why this exists, if an assassin in solo mode can't use this?
I think that if a target can't see me until my attack is made, it is a sneak attack. If, in my turn i go out in charge against my target, if he didn't spot me until that moment i think it is sneak and death attack.
I try to explain what i'd like to say with an example:
3 round in shadow, i'm studying victim, and it is all ok. no detection for me. my target didn't know if i exist or not.
4th round. my target is fighting agains my friends, and i'm away from him of 20 ft. ok, then stealth, with my target's perception test, he fails, my stealth movement takes me out of my shadow, in plain sight, end of movement i attack. I think there is sneak and death attack.
If it is not, i think i can never do a death attack, unless i have a mage in party.
you can say play with shadows... ok, then a dwarf will never be slayed with a death attack??
Tell me how to use a death attack in solo mode, Without help.
I should be near target to attack him, and in ANY case, if i'm near for a melee attack i always am detected, so i never can use my death attack unless i'm invisible or my target is blinded.
The assassin could be sneaking using Stealth as well. Those are the cases where Death Attack clearly works (you're not detected and you're not recognized as an enemy).
I think it's also supposed to work if the assassin is disguised as someone innocent and he suddenly attacks from surprise. In that case, it depends on how you interpret the term "detected", though.
Volete fare attacchi dalle ombre senza essere individuati ? Ombra danzante
Quella classe di prestigio permette ad un normale ladro di diventare molto più letale di un assassino, e senza dover studiare 3 round o concedere tiri salvezza.
Want to throw deadly attacks from shadows ? Shadowdancer
The prestige class allows a regular rogue to become much more deadly than an assassin, without the need to study anything and without allowing the victims any saves
I should be near target to attack him, and in ANY case, if i'm near for a melee attack i always am detected, so i never can use my death attack unless i'm invisible or my target is blinded.The assassin could be sneaking using Stealth as well. Those are the cases where Death Attack clearly works (you're not detected and you're not recognized as an enemy).
I think it's also supposed to work if the assassin is disguised as someone innocent and he suddenly attacks from surprise. In that case, it depends on how you interpret the term "detected", though.
Exactly. how can an assassin be undetected? my "modus operandi" is good? (study for 3 round, then stealth on 4th round and go next to target to have a death, even going in plein sight to make the attack?? )
I think that if you attack in the same round in wich you go out from your hiding spot, you have surprise, and you have sneak attack and death attack.
Otherwise it is quite impossible to make a melee attack and to be "undetected" at the same time.
Waiting hided that the Victim passes next to you, or moving using stealth when it is possible, or pretending to be a friend and betray the victim.
It's not impossible, isn't it?
Come sopra, tutte queste strategie presuppongono l'uso di altre abilità,il che vuol dire che se ti riescono effettivamente non hai bisogno di studiare alcunchè.Una volta che sei abbastanza vicino fai un normale Attacco Furtivo e hai risolto.Continuo a non capire a cosa serve Attacco Mortale.
As mentioned before, all of these strategies assume the use of other skills, which means that if you manage in using them you don't need to study anything.You are effectively close enough to do a direct Sneak Attack and there you go! I still don't understand what good is Death Attack for.
Inutile, col normale ladro a parità di livello sei più letale se specializzi le capacità da ladro sugli attacchi furtivi e usi veleni.
Se proprio vuoi dare ad un ladro una buona classe di prestigio vai con l'ombra danzante. Almeno così farei io.
Nonsense, with a regular rogue you are far more deadly with the same lvl, if you focus rogue talents on the sneak attack special effects and/or use poisons. If you really feel like giving a rouge a good prestige class go for the shadowdancer.This is what i'ld do
how can an assassin be undetected? my "modus operandi" is good? (study for 3 round, then stealth on 4th round and go next to target to have a death, even going in plein sight to make the attack?? )
Waiting hided that the Victim passes next to you, or moving using stealth when it is possible, or pretending to be a friend and betray the victim.
It's not impossible, isn't it?
If you are Dwarf there is no way to use stealth as you said. With darkvision, there are no shadows that could hide me. So is the assassin useless?? I don't think so. i think that i do the right thing, but i will wait untill somebody better than me can reply to this question: How can i use death atack in solo play with my assassin?
And how can i be undetected by doing a melee attack??
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how can an assassin be undetected? my "modus operandi" is good? (study for 3 round, then stealth on 4th round and go next to target to have a death, even going in plein sight to make the attack?? )
Waiting hided that the Victim passes next to you, or moving using stealth when it is possible, or pretending to be a friend and betray the victim.
It's not impossible, isn't it?If you are Dwarf there is no way to use stealth as you said. With darkvision, there are no shadows that could hide me. So is the assassin useless?? I don't think so. i think that i do the right thing, but i will wait untill somebody better than me can reply to this question: How can i use death atack in solo play with my assassin?
And how can i be undetected by doing a melee attack??
A dwarf, while having darkvision, does not see 360° around. Setting up a distraction could be useful too. Flanking, too. An accomplished assassin should be competent enough to close in behind an enemy without being heard.
I've always thought that deadly attack is an option for carefully set up situations, and not really for "exploration combat".Location, location, location.
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O_o you didn't know pasta or pizza?
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I've always thought that deadly attack is an option for carefully set up situations, and not really for "exploration combat".
Pretty much.
If you are Dwarf there is no way to use stealth as you said. With darkvision, there are no shadows that could hide me. So is the assassin useless?? I don't think so. i think that i do the right thing, but i will wait untill somebody better than me can reply to this question: How can i use death atack in solo play with my assassin?
And how can i be undetected by doing a melee attack??
Darkvision do not remove shadows... It makes you see in shadows but not remove shadows from existence... ;)
I've always thought that deadly attack is an option for carefully set up situations, and not really for "exploration combat".
And I totally agree with that, you have to carefully plan in advance how you're going to assassinate your target.
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O_o you didn't know pasta or pizza?
No, uh oh, no way, never >.>
If you are Dwarf there is no way to use stealth as you said. With darkvision, there are no shadows that could hide me. So is the assassin useless?? I don't think so. i think that i do the right thing, but i will wait untill somebody better than me can reply to this question: How can i use death atack in solo play with my assassin?
And how can i be undetected by doing a melee attack??Darkvision do not remove shadows... It makes you see in shadows but not remove shadows from existence... ;)
I've always thought that deadly attack is an option for carefully set up situations, and not really for "exploration combat".And I totally agree with that, you have to carefully plan in advance how you're going to assassinate your target.
Be it "exploration combat" or "carefully planned strike" the regular rogue can do the same, faster and better.
Be it "exploration combat" or "carefully planned strike" the regular rogue can do the same, faster and better.If you are Dwarf there is no way to use stealth as you said. With darkvision, there are no shadows that could hide me. So is the assassin useless?? I don't think so. i think that i do the right thing, but i will wait untill somebody better than me can reply to this question: How can i use death atack in solo play with my assassin?
And how can i be undetected by doing a melee attack??Darkvision do not remove shadows... It makes you see in shadows but not remove shadows from existence... ;)
I've always thought that deadly attack is an option for carefully set up situations, and not really for "exploration combat".And I totally agree with that, you have to carefully plan in advance how you're going to assassinate your target.
I would think that the difference would be straight damage vs fort save.
Victim loses fort save and he/she is dead. +5d6 sneak attack damage does not mean "dead" to your average 10 HD opponent.
Also, death attack bridges the gap between a reality where even highly experienced people can be killed in a single attack, and the HP mechanic. Sneak attack does this too but is more heavily weighted towards the HP mechanic, where Death Attack, much like a coup de gras, brings it closer to a one-hit-one-kill encounter, regardless of HP total and weapon damage. An assassin can death attack with a stapler if he/she so chooses.
I would think that the difference would be straight damage vs fort save.
Victim loses fort save and he/she is dead. +5d6 sneak attack damage does not mean "dead" to your average 10 HD opponent.
Also, death attack bridges the gap between a reality where even highly experienced people can be killed in a single attack, and the HP mechanic. Sneak attack does this too but is more heavily weighted towards the HP mechanic, where Death Attack, much like a coup de gras, brings it closer to a one-hit-one-kill encounter, regardless of HP total and weapon damage. An assassin can death attack with a stapler if he/she so chooses.
If we talk of "realism" then the vast majority of the combats would be impossible. When my barbarian inflicts 1d12+70 it wouldn't matter if the attack hits or not,even if i miss and my weapon strikes the ground near my foe's feet, i kill him with the shock wave.If a lvl 18 fighter doesn't get hit from a frost giant's huge greatsword (or whatever) because the giant rolled a natural "1" that doesn't mean the fighter survives...he dies some 10000 ft away after being thrown there by the impact of the giant's weapon. If you want to instantly kill someone regardless of HP a regular rogue has plenty of options at whatever lvl to inflict paralysis then coup de grace.
Right, and moreover there are "cover or concealment"A dwarf, while having darkvision, does not see 360° around. Setting up a distraction could be useful too. Flanking, too. An accomplished assassin should be competent enough to close in behind an enemy without being heard.
I've always thought that deadly attack is an option for carefully set up situations, and not really for "exploration combat".Location, location, location.
Again? How should i tell you?? Sooner or later you have to go out from cover or concealement to make the attack! I just can't stay in shadow for all of my life hoping that you come next to me with your wirst in sight that says to me "cut me!"
Location location location... again.. how can i make a melee attack without be seen?? i'm asking you because if there is a way i can't find it! DarkVision doesn't destroy shadows of course, but if i'm concealed in shadows a dwarf can see me, and there is NO WAY to make a death attack against him! It is impossible! I Can't believe that the assassin is just that useless! There are enchantments that kills you more easly and with a CD more hight than death attack, and in just one round! You really think that a monster to be victim of a death attack in a combat has to kill himself?
According to mee assassin is a master of homicide! It is a person that in darkness can kill anyone in 10 different ways!
Death attack has a DC very low, to make it i have to spend 3 rounds, at the end, i have to do a sneak attack, so i have to hit my enemy, i have to damage him, if i fail the first attack i lose all my three rounds of work... and now you are telling me that i also have to wait that enemy comes next to me, because i can't go in melee against them without beeing seen?
This is just absurd.
How do you sneak up on a dwarf with darkvision? You provide a distraction. You catch him while he is engrossed in something so he is "distracted" (studying a spellbook, cooking a stew, carving a miniature statue). Or you approach him disguised, draw your weapon with sleight of hand and/or quickdraw, and gut him. Now the stealth rules are somewhat complicated and they are spread out among a lot sections but if you read the perception skill you will see that being aware of your surroundings is a move action. Not aware of your surroundings? hmmm you could be a victim of a stealth skill check.
The trick to getting off a death attack is (as DM_Blake mentioned in another thread) is to catch your prey flatfooted. If you can do that you also lower your prey's AC a tad, helping your 3/4 BAB to connect your attack. That said if you are trying to get your death attack to score, it behooves you to use any temporary buffs you can gather (oil of magic weapon, potion of bless, etc, potion of fox's cunning).
Now this is all well and good, but death attacks are not meant to score every time. They are meant to be a gambit in which you try to take out a target with minimal fuss. If it fails, it fails, and you score an normal sneak attack instead. Then its plan B time. BUT if it works, then you can take out someone who might have been a major combatant, and that is a good thing.
I certainly agree the entry for an assassin's death attack is not worded very clearly.
On a surprise round you only get one standard action and therefore cannot both move and attack at the same time. The assassin studies his victim for three rounds from the shadows but during the surprise round he would have to move and therefore give up his surprise without an attack.
One might think that after your move into position on the surprise round that there is a chance if you, the assassin has a high enough initiative, you go first, ahead of your intended victim. They would still be flat footed since they haven't gone yet in this combat and you could still get your death attack swing. However, due to the wording of the death attack description, your victim, seeing you spring from the shadows, weapon in hand, will clearly recognize you as an enemy and thus your death attack has been canceled (although you can still sneak attack).
Therefore it seems to be the assassin either needs to be in disguise so they can approach their victim without raising suspicions (and now we probably rolling sense motive checks). Or the assassin needs to invest in some potions of invisibility.
I would like to think that an assassin could try and stealth up behind a target and then get a death attack but without cover or concealment you can't use stealth. Obviously this is situational. If you're in a dark room then you could argue the shadows offer concealment for targets without darkvision.
Another beef I have is the requirement to use a melee weapon. They made it pretty clear that a rogue could do a sneak attack from 30' away. Why in the world can't an assassion make a death attack from 30' away with a ranged weapon (or even a thrown weapon)? It would be a lot easier to catch your victium off guard than having to get adjacent to them. Seems like a big hole in this idea of an assassin' ability to one-shot kill his victims.
Personally, the fortitude DC from the assassin's death attack seems pretty low. Sure it might work on non-melee characters but any barbarian/fighter/ranger/paladin/monk is probably going to make that save unless the assassin is significantly higher level (and very intelligent). Who says you have to be smart to stick a poisoned dagger in your target's back anyway?
I feel like the wording of the death attack ability is just begging for DMs to write their own house-rule on the issue.
There's my two cents worth and more!
Another beef I have is the requirement to use a melee weapon. They made it pretty clear that a rogue could do a sneak attack from 30' away. Why in the world can't an assassion make a death attack from 30' away with a ranged weapon (or even a thrown weapon)? It would be a lot easier to catch your victium off guard than having to get adjacent to them. Seems like a big hole in this idea of an assassin' ability to one-shot kill his victims.
This I certainly agree with. especially since ranged assassination is as common a trope as backstabbing.
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How do you sneak up on a dwarf with darkvision? You provide a distraction. You catch him while he is engrossed in something so he is "distracted" (studying a spellbook, cooking a stew, carving a miniature statue).
Alway carry a gold piece. You can roll them into the targets Line of Sight, leave it in the targets projected path or simply *ping* it off their head from the shadows..
...viola, distracted target!
Preparing a charge IS a standard action. so i can prepare a charge in my turn, and make a death attack with my prepared charge? This should be a surprise.
the real problem in this system is that while fighting anyone has a 360° vision. So it is impossible to determine your "behind".
And what about distraction? isn't a distraction to fight against another player? if monster doesn't know my position, i think yes. He just can't know from where next attack will come from.
the real problem in this system is that while fighting anyone has a 360° vision. So it is impossible to determine your "behind".
And what about distraction? isn't a distraction to fight against another player? if monster doesn't know my position, i think yes. He just can't know from where next attack will come from.
And thus people can be flanked. But I think the issue with using stealth in a combat situation is that people are hyper vigilant when their lives are on the line.
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Let's not forget that while you *can* have a 360 degree field of vision (I have one and so do all my friends, naturally.) *most* people can only truly focus on one thing at a time.
Unless of course they're your mother.
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. I don't know about "preparing a charge" but the actual charge attack is a special full round action.
I thought about this too, having the assassin either charge or give them pounce, but both are full round actions. You can only do a standard action in a surprise round.
If you're the DM you could always give the NPC assassin some sort of new feat or special spell or new home-brew item that lets them get a full round attack on a surprise round. You know the PCs will grab that item and use it immediately from that point forward (once the assassin is dead).
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.as far as distracted targets go, the assassin could always team up with a caster to start using illusions to "distract" targets. Yet I'm unfamiliar with how that would work.
Diagram: hallway with some openings.
---| - |-------------------| - |------WALL---
___ A__________ T __I
---| C|-------------------| - |-------------
A = assassin, C = caster, T = target, I = illusion
You could have the caster create the illusion in front of the target to "distract" them but technically as soon as the Assassin moves into the hallway without cover or concealment they are no longer stealthed.
Do they continue to make stealth checks because the Target is distracted?
On a different note, does anyone know how to change the fonts in my post? Trying to get my diagram to work was terrible.
And thus people can be flanked. But I think the issue with using stealth in a combat situation is that people are hyper vigilant when their lives are on the line.Probably the death attack is supposed to be hardly used during a combat.
But anyway you still can use stealth untill your death attack (maybe using cover or concealment of other creatures).
You really don't know how to use stealth. do you?
Just two words: "Allucinazione mortale" (I don't know how to translate this); just two Saving rolls with an high DC... Instant Death.
Why a death attack should be more difficult than this spell? This spell you just cast it. nothing else to do. I really think that there is something missing in sneak attack in general.
@BloodWort: I don't like homebrew things. I think that we must have a sort of justice between classes, that home made things may destroy.
I like to follow rules, but if they are incomplete i think i have to find something that still is balanced with other classes...
in that case all is to know what that "detected" means. Until that moment i don't know what to do.
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.as far as distracted targets go, the assassin could always team up with a caster to start using illusions to "distract" targets. Yet I'm unfamiliar with how that would work.Diagram: hallway with some openings.
---| - |-------------------| - |------WALL---
___ A__________ T __I
---| C|-------------------| - |-------------A = assassin, C = caster, T = target, I = illusion
You could have the caster create the illusion in front of the target to "distract" them but technically as soon as the Assassin moves into the hallway without cover or concealment they are no longer stealthed.
Do they continue to make stealth checks because the Target is distracted?On a different note, does anyone know how to change the fonts in my post? Trying to get my diagram to work was terrible.
Following rules, distraction just gives to the assassin a bonus, but if he is in plein sight no stelth roll can be done to be unseen. That's why i think that death attack rule is wrong.
I ALWAYS can see the assassin if he is in melee.
The only ways to be unseen until your attack is to have invisibility, or that target comes next to you while you are hiding. it is impossible to use in combat.
Just two words: "Allucinazione mortale" (I don't know how to translate this)
"Allucinazione mortale"= Literally is"Deadly hallucination" ; in the corebook it is worded "Phantasmal Killer" Wizard/Sorcerer 4th spell lvl
Just two words: "Allucinazione mortale" (I don't know how to translate this)"Allucinazione mortale"= Literally is"Deadly hallucination" ; in the corebook it is worded "Phantasmal Killer" Wizard/Sorcerer 4th spell lvl
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the translation.
Allucinazione Mortale is a very similar spell to a death attack, but AM takes 2 saves, where as DA takes one save and probably a perception check. DA's save DC also scales up without having to use a higher spell level. If your GM lets you take the monster feat Ability Focus you can pump the DC up even more. In those ways, Allucinazione Mortale is slightly weaker, although on the other hand, all it requires of the user is a standard action, no hiding or getting a surprise round.