So I have 3 Questions.
1. When moving through threatened space, can each 5' of movement trigger an AoO for leaving a threatened space?
Example: Medium Creature moves to engage a Huge Creature with 15' reach in melee combat. If the Huge Creature has combat reflexes and a +1 Dexterity bonus, can he attack the Medium Creature once for moving from 15' away to 10' away, then again for moving 10' away to 5' away?
2. The Eidolon Evolusion Push states any successful attack can prompt a combat maneuver to push the target 5' back. If used during an AoO does this end the targets movement completely, or allow it to continue moving with whatever movement it has left?
Example: A creature charges the eidolon, but is struck and fails against the combat maneuver Push, is the charge stopped dead in its tracks, and where is the creature left standing if so?
3. A situational question. If you could keep moving after a push, would you continuously trigger new AoOs trying to move through a threatened area?
In reply only to the first question: No, that movement does not provoke multiple AoO.
Per the PRD: "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."
GNOME
Can a creature wait for 5' of movement to perform an AoO? Like the above situation, the Huge Creature waits until the 10' range to 5' range to take its AoO?
1. No. "Movement" is a single action, and an action only draws one AoO (per person who threatens). This is regardless of how far you move, if you use two actions to move (like using both your move and standard action to move). Once your turn is over, if some other movement would normally provoke an AoO, then it is eligible again.
2. This I'm not sure about. I don't see why it would stop their movement. There are feats and abilities that do stop movement, and that text isn't in Push. As for a charge, I'm not sure about that specifically.
3. No, see 1.
As for waiting on a square, I can see both yes and no.
Yes - they provoke with each square of movement, but you become ineligible to attack once you use your AoO.
No - they provoke on the first square, you must choose to either use it or lose it.
Either way, a push would be just as effective in the first square as the second (unless they're trying to get past you on a narrow cliff ledge).
1. No. "Movement" is a single action, and an action only draws one AoO (per person who threatens). This is regardless of how far you move, if you use two actions to move (like using both your move and standard action to move). Once your turn is over, if some other movement would normally provoke an AoO, then it is eligible again.
2. Not sure, the rules aren't technically clear, but I could see an argument for both Yes and No.
Yes - They provoke each time, but once you take your AoO, you can't take anymore against their movement.
No - they only provoke on the first one, if you don't take it, it's gone.3. No, see 1.
You don't seem to have addressed my origional no.2, but my second post with your no.2
Being that moving is a single action, and not broken up into several 5' incremental mini-actions, I believe being pushed is the equivalent of tripping in regards to what you were doing when you provoked the AoO. In this case I believe your movement would be halted. If you were charging/running then your turn is over, if you were only moving, you can still perform a standard action...
So how about this particular situation...
A medium creature moves to attack a huge creature. At 15' away the medium creature provokes an AoO for attempting to move through 10' away to 5' away. The huge creature succeeds in pushing the medium creature back 5' before its movement is completed, setting it at 20' away. With a standard action left, the medium creature again attempts to approach the huge creature. While still having AoOs left in the round, this new movement yields another AoO provocation, yes? In fact, because it is a second action, wouldn't it provoke an AoO even if it were still within the threatened area?
No, this doesn't interrupt your movement any more than any other AoO does. A trip is a different beast because you need to take a move action to stand up.
Pushing someone back 5ft does nothing but chew up 5ft of their motion. Think of a magical trap that if stepped on, relocates a person exactly 5ft to the left. They'd be surprised, but be able to keep moving.
The ability doesn't say it ends the foe's movement, so it doesn't.
Next topic, delaying AoO. I'd say RAW, no you can't. The initial action provokes. You either take your AoO or you do not. If you do not take the AoO, it is resolved. Further movement does not provoke new AoO so you have no further chance to make your attack. Note that AoO not taken aren't consumed, so if a caster approaches a monster, that monster could elect to not take its AoO for movement, saving it for when the caster throws a spell. (This assuming a creature with the usual one AoO per round.)
As for your new situation, absolutely no - even if you're ruling that pushing aborts movement. Movement provokes, not "a move action used to move". That is to say, if I had move 30ft and was 40ft from a creature with 15ft reach... my first move action would end me 10ft away from it, having passed through one threatened square. An AoO would have been triggered. If I continue, thereby doing a double-move, I close with the creature and end my turn. The creature does NOT get a second AoO (even with Combat Reflexes) because I have made a second move action that involves movement. In my round I moved. The details aren't important.
So I have 3 Questions.
1. When moving through threatened space, can each 5' of movement trigger an AoO for leaving a threatened space?
Nope
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
2. The Eidolon Evolusion Push states any successful attack can prompt a combat maneuver to push the target 5' back. If used during an AoO does this end the targets movement completely, or allow it to continue moving with whatever movement it has left?
No. It doesn't say that it stops the creature so it doesn't.
3. A situational question. If you could keep moving after a push, would you continuously trigger new AoOs trying to move through a threatened area?
nope. see 1.
You don't seem to have addressed my origional no.2, but my second post with your no.2Being that moving is a single action, and not broken up into several 5' incremental mini-actions, I believe being pushed is the equivalent of tripping in regards to what you were doing when you provoked the AoO. In this case I believe your movement would be halted. If you were charging/running then your turn is over, if you were only moving, you can still perform a standard action...
So how about this particular situation...
A medium creature moves to attack a huge creature. At 15' away the medium creature provokes an AoO for attempting to move through 10' away to 5' away. The huge creature succeeds in pushing the medium creature back 5' before its movement is completed, setting it at 20' away. With a standard action left, the medium creature again attempts to approach the huge creature. While still having AoOs left in the round, this new movement yields another AoO provocation, yes? In fact, because it is a second action, wouldn't it provoke an AoO even if it were still within the threatened area?
No.
Pg 180, last paragraph of AoO, 2nd to last sentence.
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent
You can only draw one AoO from movement per opponent, per round. End of story.
Here's an example: I charge opponent A, in the course of my charge, opponent B gets an AoO from my movement. On opponent A's turn, he uses Greater Bull Rush against me to move me past opponent B. Opponent B does not get an AoO, because this round, he has already taken an AoO from my movement.
The Stand Still feat (pg 134) specifically says that if you successfully attack someone with an AoO, they are not allowed to move for the rest of their turn. Push does not include that language. Since that language does exist for one ability, it now becomes excluded from other abilities that do not contain that text.
On the other hand, a charge is a specific type of action. If a person has to double-move to charge, the Push now makes them move backwards, then forwards again. There movement is no longer in a straight line and could be inferred to invalidate the charge. Though if they still have sufficient movement, they could continue moving without the attack, or even attack if still under their normal move speed. Of course someone who is allowed to make a change in direction in their movement could still complete the charge.
That would be the strictest interpretation I can see where Push would stop any form of movement.
Actually "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the
same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more
than one opportunity for that opponent" was a quote out of context.
It is a sentence of a section that clarifies how "Combat Reflexes" work, and is saying how many separate AoOs you can *make* against a single enemy, not how many AoOs are *provoked* by that enemy.So, yes, it is possible to not make an AoO and make another AoO, if another AoO is provoked.
(Pag. 180 CoreRulebook)
Here's the text we need. Additional verbiage not related to this mechanical question excised for brevity. The fact that the sentence is embedded in the Combat Reflexes section doesn't change anything. Characters without Combat Reflexes (or similar ability) can't make multiple AoO, making that section the most sensible place to put the text.
What I'm saying is that it's clear you've got your opportunity when the foe leaves the first threatened square. You have to resolve that immediately - that's what it says - and you can elect to not take the AoO. From then on you're following the same rules as Combat Reflexes. The reason you still have an AoO left to make in the round doesn't matter. Having multiple AoO or having an AoO because you didn't already use it up... same thing. It's a use-it-or-lose-it situation.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to. An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked
in the midst of a character’s turn).
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
The text clearly states that you cannot make more than one attack. It says nothing about getting more than one opportunity. You get one opportunity every time they leave a threatened square.. you can pick which opportunity you'd like to use if it matters.
Ok well, the reason I ask these things is, how do you STOP a flying enemy with freedom of movement...they can't be grappled right? I was hoping Push would allow for a defense against say, a charging guy on a flying horse, both with freedom of movement. You can't trip fliers.
I think I'll start another thread to discern the nature of Push and how it interacts with an interrupted movement.
Yeah but those require you to go BEFORE you're charged, haha.
The Stand Still feat (AoO stops movement until their next turn).
Spells:
Hold Person (rider)
Hold Animal (mount)
Hold Monster (either)
Hideous Laughter (either)
Wall of Force (or other walls for battlefield control)
Fly (to chase him)
Weapons with the Brace ability (double damage against charging opponents).
One of the greatest strengths of a summoner is the ability to adapt to any opponent through your summoned minions. Summon flying creatures.
The Stand Still feat (AoO stops movement until their next turn).
Spells:
Hold Person (rider)
Hold Animal (mount)
Hold Monster (either)
Hideous Laughter (either)
Wall of Force (or other walls for battlefield control)
Fly (to chase him)
Weapons with the Brace ability (double damage against charging opponents).
One of the greatest strengths of a summoner is the ability to adapt to any opponent through your summoned minions. Summon flying creatures.
Lastly, flying opponents are the bane of grounded characters without ranged weapons. If you think this flying mounted knight is bad, wait until you see a dragon out in the open.
Yeah but those require you to go BEFORE you're charged, haha.Oh push should stop a charge.. as all the movement has to be directly towards the target.
-James
Just devil's advocate here, does the push count as their movement? Ie, do you subtract it from how far they move in a turn. If not, then all of THEIR movement still qualifies for a charge. Every square the charging character chooses still qualifies for a charge. A push must be directly away from you, which will often be the same direction the opponent charged from, therefore all movement is happening on that straight line.
Realism tells us the charge is voided, but the rules aren't 100% clear from how I see it. I would interpret it like you, that the push stops the charge, but I can see the argument to allow the charge as well.
The Stand Still feat (AoO stops movement until their next turn).
Unclear if it will work against target with freedom of movement which protects from effect that prevent movement - Stand Still, however is probably more of a tactical effect than magical/physical prevention of movement.
Spells:
Hold Person (rider)
Hold Animal (mount)
Hold Monster (either)
All those spells won't affect someone under freedom of movement. If he thought to and could use it both on onself and own mount, that is :)
Hideous Laughter (either)
Wall of Force (or other walls for battlefield control)
Fly (to chase him)
All workable solutions, however Hideous Laughter might be less usable against mount than rider, as it does not work on Int 1-2 creatures and creatures with type other than caster gain +4 to their save.
Lastly, flying opponents are the bane of grounded characters without ranged weapons. If you think this flying mounted knight is bad, wait until you see a dragon out in the open.
This is why adventureres enter dragon lairs to kill them ;)
You're right, I listed ways to defeat flying creatures. The only way to defeat Freedom of Movement is to dispel it.
You're right, I listed ways to defeat flying creatures. The only way to defeat Freedom of Movement is to dispel it.
Or to create barriers. Freedom of movement does not allow someone to walk through walls! (or a forcecage, resilient sphere, etc.)
Ok so, how about THIS:
A medium creature moves past another medium creature, entering and exiting it's 5' adjacent threat range, triggering an AoO. In the same movement the moving creature continues around to the other side of the stationary creature and then passes through the threatened square on the opposite side. The Stationary creature has combat reflexes and at least a +1 dexterity modifier. Will the moving creature provoke 2 attacks of opportunity?
I tried to draw a diagram but the forums don't allow unnecessary use of spaces so...hope everyone understands the moving creature has entered and exited the threatened area two entirely separate times.
Ok so, how about THIS:
A medium creature moves past another medium creature, entering and exiting it's 5' adjacent threat range, triggering an AoO. In the same movement the moving creature continues around to the other side of the stationary creature and then passes through the threatened square on the opposite side. The Stationary creature has combat reflexes and at least a +1 dexterity modifier. Will the moving creature provoke 2 attacks of opportunity?
I tried to draw a diagram but the forums don't allow unnecessary use of spaces so...hope everyone understands the moving creature has entered and exited the threatened area two entirely separate times.
Still no. Movement provokes a grand total of one AoO (per opponent of course). It doesn't matter if you do circles around your foe or not. One is one, and one is the number of AoO movement provokes. Seek not the answer "two", for therein lies madness. <Grin>
Ok so, how about THIS:
A medium creature moves past another medium creature, entering and exiting it's 5' adjacent threat range, triggering an AoO. In the same movement the moving creature continues around to the other side of the stationary creature and then passes through the threatened square on the opposite side. The Stationary creature has combat reflexes and at least a +1 dexterity modifier. Will the moving creature provoke 2 attacks of opportunity?
I tried to draw a diagram but the forums don't allow unnecessary use of spaces so...hope everyone understands the moving creature has entered and exited the threatened area two entirely separate times.
Here's the text from the rulebook again. It's very clear.
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Nuh-uh. You PROVOKE an AoO whenever you leave a threatened square without taking a 5-foot step (or on the first step of a Withdraw action), no limits. An opponent (normally) can only TAKE one of the provoked attacks, but see Combat Reflexes.Still no. Movement provokes a grand total of one AoO (per opponent of course). It doesn't matter if you do circles around your foe or not. One is one, and one is the number of AoO movement provokes. Seek not the answer "two", for therein lies madness. <Grin>Ok so, how about THIS:
A medium creature moves past another medium creature, entering and exiting it's 5' adjacent threat range, triggering an AoO. In the same movement the moving creature continues around to the other side of the stationary creature and then passes through the threatened square on the opposite side. The Stationary creature has combat reflexes and at least a +1 dexterity modifier. Will the moving creature provoke 2 attacks of opportunity?
I tried to draw a diagram but the forums don't allow unnecessary use of spaces so...hope everyone understands the moving creature has entered and exited the threatened area two entirely separate times.
Combat Reflexes does NOT allow you to take multiple AoO due to a single creatures movement. It does allow you to take another AoO if they provoke for another reason though.
For example, if a cleric moves through a square you threaten he provokes an AoO. If he then casts a spell without casting defensively, he provokes an AoO. Further movement does not provoke, until the next round, even if it happens on someone elses turn.
Per the rulebook, page 180.
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Now, if you move past multiple enemies, each enemy is determined independently for their threatened squares and AoO. You can draw multiple AoO for movement from multiple opponents, but only one per opponent, even if they have Combat Reflexes. Combat Reflexes does NOT trump the rule on page 180, because the rule on page 180 says you DON'T provoke.
Here's the text from the rulebook again. It's very clear.
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
I happen to disagree with your interpretation here. I think this specifically involves multiple squares per threatened area entered.
In which case it means moving through a large threat range. I'd really like a dev opinion on this one, so where could I go to ask?
Here's the text from the rulebook again. It's very clear.
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
I happen to disagree with your interpretation here. I think this specifically involves multiple squares per threatened area entered.
In which case it means moving through a large threat range. I'd really like a dev opinion on this one, so where could I go to ask?
It's actually very clear. It doesn't provide an exception if you leave and come back. It says one per round per enemy. Additional movement does not provide AoO, with zero exceptions for movement mode, positioning, routes or other actions happening between squares of movement.
I'll repeat my previous scenario for you:
Initiative Order:
Monster A
Player A
Player B
Monster A charges Player A. In doing so it moves past Player B, provoking an AoO. Player B uses this opportunity and makes his attack.
Player A uses Greater Bull Rush on Monster A, pushing him past Player B. Because this is the same round, Player B does NOT get an attack of opportunity, even though he has Combat Reflexes.
Even though the movement is happening on someone else's action, it still does not provoke from Player B, because he has already taken an AoO on Monster A due to movement. This is regardless of whether Monster A left his threatened area completely or not.
Nuh-uh. You PROVOKE an AoO whenever you leave a threatened square without taking a 5-foot step (or on the first step of a Withdraw action), no limits. An opponent (normally) can only TAKE one of the provoked attacks, but see Combat Reflexes.
I'd argue semantics. Lacking differentiation there's no meaningful disagreement here. Basically what I'm saying is that you perform an action when an AoO is precluded, you don't provoke. The wording is - as you say - different, but the result isn't. Yes, I'm being linguistically sloppy.
At my table, we don't apply cover bonuses to AC against ranged attacks. Instead we apply a penalty to the attack roll. It ends up exactly the same but instead of the DM constantly adjusting math at his end the players incorporate it into their to-hit number. The player is already taking into account that they are firing into melee, have Point Blank Shot and are within range, that they've got cat's grace running on them but it only gives +1 to hit because of their belt of dexterity +2 already permanently altering their stats and oh yeah, bless is up. I'm just pointing out that sometimes it doesn't matter what you call something as long as it mechanically ends up the same. Except when you interact with someone who doesn't use the same short-cut or terminology you do, hence mea culpa.
So I'm 100% guilty of sloppy language, but it doesn't change the result. A target it only allowed to make one AoO per individual who provokes due to movement per round even if they have Combat Reflexes.