| Torryn |
Hello, Torryn here.
Was just wondering if you guys could help me make a build for a character who fights using thrown weapons.
I would rather the character to be human, but elf and halfling are acceptable.
And if your proposed class is a rogue (most likely) then I would also appreciate tips for gaining sneak attack damage from range.
| waynemarkstubbs |
I've been trying to build a decent dagger thrower since 3.5 first came out, and never quite succeeded. Abusing splatbook classes like the Whisperknife and Invisible Blade came close, but at the cost of almost anything else. You always end up with something vastly inferior to the archer. Your main drawbacks are:
1) Range. If you are not close to the action, you are taking 'to hit' penalties that you can't afford, especially if you want to be spending them on the Deadly Aim feat.
2) Damage Reduction. This is a killer at low levels. DR 5/- can spoil your whole day as a dagger thrower without a substantial STR bonus. DR10/- and you might as well go home.
3) Ammo. Even with the Quick Draw feat and a sympathetic DM, you can't keep up with everyone else. Give the fighter a single +1 flaming sword and he's happy. You need half a dozen or more +1 flaming daggers. Preferably +1 flaming returning daggers.
Meanwhile, the elf can sit 100 feet away from the combat and shoot 5 adamantine tipped arrows a round from his +5 STR magic composite bow.
If you still want to build a dagger thrower, there are a number of ways you can go.
1) Precision damage. Sneak attack obviously helps, but then you need to spend points on Improved Feint. Unfortunately, this only ever makes feinting a move action, which isn't what you want. You want Mobility and Shot on the Run, so you can dart in, unload a deadly throw, and then remove yourself. You can try to build a Sniper option using potions of Invisibility, wands of Darkness etc.
2) Poison - a good low level option. All you need is a single strike - it doesn't even need to crit.
3) Wider Throwing Options - don't just throw daggers - thunderstones, tanglefoot bags, flasks of acid etc. can be effective in the right situations. The Alchemist class can be good for this, as you get free bombs too.
4) Evil Crits - if your crappy dagger thrower survives, the higher level Crit Feats can be good. When you have Bleeding Crit, Blinding Crit and Crit Mastery, your +1 keen returning dagger can be a game changer.
| jlord |
Not sure if you can feint in ranged combat...
Anyway, I believe a Monk focusing on throwing shurikens can bring forth some damage. Try to get a high strength and dex, try to take advantage of furry of blows, and take deadly aim. Haven't looked at zen archer, but might be worth looking into if the abilities apply to throwing weapons. The good and bad thing about Shurikens is that they are treated as ammo, so it is a lot easier to draw them and it is cheaper to apply special materials in the short run, but in the long run, you will have to replenish them.
Eric Clingenpeel
|
In 3.5 I made a successful thrower using the scout and eventually took the master thrower PrC. But he didn't throw daggers. He threw javelins. They have a die better damage, triple the range, and you can store 18 in an efficient quiver (once you get one) and you will want one if you go javelins.
Quick Throw is a definite requirement when you're throwing your weapons away as once you throw one you want to make sure you have another in hand in case of AoO.
For pathfinder you might consider the scout AT from the APG. While its first ability that replaces uncanny dodge works only on a charge and you can't throw on a charge, its second ability is nice for getting a ranged sneak attack in, since all you have to do is move at least 10 feet.
For your first few levels, you might consider being a poisoner rogue. Since the two ATs replace different class abilities they can be used together, and Master Poisoner would give you the ability to make poisons more useful by changing the type.
If you go Poisoner, you might check out Krazy Kragnar's Alchemical Surplus Shop pdf for sale here at paizo. It has a group of items in it called Alchemical Goads. These can be added to alchemical items (which poison is) to increase their DC. This could get expensive (ok, it will get expensive) but it makes poisons much more usable at later levels, assuming your dm allows the supplement.
Unfortunately feinting isn't the way to go. The skill doesn't say it, but reading the feinting rules in the combat section specifies that feinting is for melee attacks.
Now, once you get multiple attacks, moving and attacking to get SA dmg might not always be your only resource. Convince your party's arcane caster to keep grease memorized. Moving in grease makes them flatfooted (of course just standing still doesn't... I definitely don't like this nerf from 3.5, but oh well). Another good spell as WMS mentioned is invisibility, better though is imp. invisibility since you can full attack with it and get SA on all your attacks.
While daggers and javelins are good, also consider keeping other weapons on had as well. Clubs and throwing axes provide different damage types which I found handy to have on hand for DR purposes, and having different metals is good to have too.
Don't know if any of this will help or not, but hopefully it does some.
| Adam Ormond |
Monk with shuriken's is viable at start - cause as jlord said, shuriken's are treated as ammo, so enchanting them is next to useless, cause ammo loses its magic after you throw it once.
Had forgotten about that. Sounds like a thrower has to have access to daily Greater Magic Weapon castings; possibly two.
There's clearly a need for some type of throwing PrC. Crossbows just became marginally viable. Time for Shurikens and Darts to get similar treatment.
| Quantum Steve |
Another way to get sneak attack on thrown weapons is Shatter Defenses. Convince your Fighter to take Dazzling Display or Barbarian to take Intimidating Glare to give you the set-up and sneak attack the now shaken foe. You could use Dazzling Display yourself, but you really need to max intimidate to make the shaken last long enough.
| Breiti |
Why rogue?
It's hard to get a setup for sneak attack and depends much on items/ammo. Currently one of the best throwing classes/builds is an alchemist focused on bombs.
Something like:
Half-Orc Alchemist
Point Buy 20:
STR: 13 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 17 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
(Stats could be more optimized...)
Feats:
1st Point-Blank-Shot
3rd Precise Shot
5th Extra Discovery (Explosive bomb)
7th ??
9th ??
Discoveries:
2nd: Infusion
4th: Precise bombs
6th: Explosive bomb/Fost Bomb
8th: Force bomb/Fast bombs
Bomb Damage Level 8:
4d6 + 4 + 4(Orc Favorit Class) +1 PBS = AVG(23)
Not that an amazing amount of damage but do not underestimate bonus damage/effects:
-Splash Damage (Min bomb damage: Level 8 -> 13)
-Secondary Bomb Effects (Trip (Force bomb), Burn (Explosive bomb), Staggered (Frost bomb)
An additional plus:
-Ability to Cure/Buff your self and your party (Infusion discovery)
-Engouh feats for a backup weapon (i would prefer a Longspear, but throwing weapons will fit in this build, too)
- Ability to posion weapons
The same build would work for a human/hafling but not as good.
Because of the orc favorit class bonus.
Breiti
| Caineach |
I tried doing it with Bard and shuriken once. It was amusing. Needed annother feat that I just couldn't pull out of anywhere. Bardic performance and arcane strike made up for the lack of damage. Even then he had pretty piddly damage output though.
I personally like the fact that shuriken are ammo. You can easily get enough that way thanks to maic weapon and similar spells, instead of enchanted thown weapons. At 5+ shots a round though, you can blow through them pretty quick.
| Blueluck |
First, I really like your idea. I'm sure it will be a lot of fun to play!
Second, don't get too carried away with min/maxing your thrown damage. Accept that your ranged damage output will be slightly lower than some other tactics. But as long as one of your three or four other party members isn't using those tactics, it won't matter a bit. You'll do plenty of damage, and have a lot of interesting options in most fights.
Race: You'll want the movement of a tall race
- Elf (For the Rogue build)
- Human (For the Fighter build)
Class:
- Rogue (with the Scout option from the APG)
- Fighter
Feats:
- Quick Draw (So that you never go unarmed.)
- Catch off Guard (So that you can stab effectively with a javelin.)
- Deadly Aim (Early for Fighter, late for Rogue)
- Point Blank Shot
- Precise Shot
- . . . Further ranged combat feats as available
Weapons:
- Javelin (1d6 damage is nice, but 30' range is key!)
- Bola, Net, Lasso, Tanglefoot bag, etc. for utility
- Shuriken might be a good temporary weapon, but don't invest too much since they're treated as ammo, and you'll go the 50 really fast.
Rogue
- Take the Bleeding Attack talent.
- Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Step eventually, since they'll allow you to move through terrain that you can't be chased through, and maintain your range. "You can't catch me, I'm the Gingerbread (and stab you in the face) man!"
Fighter
- Keep a shield handy
- You and might want to branch into Two Weapon Fighting for when you get stuck in melee.
- Don't forget to take Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Focus, and Improved Weapon Specialization as they become available.
- 'Thrown' and possibly 'Spears' will be your Weapon Training choices, and will determine what extra weapons you keep on hand for special cases. (Longspear, for example!)
So, here's how you're going to outshine Bow-Boy.
- Versatility - You can throw all sorts of things, not just arrows. (Rapid Shot: Tanglefoot, Tanglefoot, Tanglefoot is going to be a hoot!)
- Damage Type - You'll be a little less deadly with a thrown Club or Axe, but DR 5/bludgeoning won't mean you have to pack up and go home.
- Attack of Opportunity - You'll always have stabbity-death waiting in one hand, ready to strike!
- Melee - Don't forget that you'll be a combat Rogue or Fighter! Sure, you might have a few 'wasted feats' when you're doing something other than throwing, but don't let that stop you! One of the most annoying characters to deal with as a party member is the archer who avoids melee at all costs.*
*This might start a fight, but I'm not just trolling rangers! Many times I've seen a caster get stuck in Melee when the archer could have taken his place. Or, times when a flanker would have made all the difference, but bow-boy was too scared to move in. Don't get me wrong, I love ranged combat! I'll take ranged units in Civilization, Warhammer 40k, and a raiding level Hunter in WoW, you name it.
But, when you have the 1st or 2nd highest AC in the party, 1st or 2nd highest HP, 1st or 2nd best chance to hit with a melee weapon, and don't have to cast spells (provoke) to be effective, then you're the backup fighter. Deal with it. Take on the role gracefully when it's needed, and you'll always be an asset to your party.
| Nephelim |
I'm playing a Rogue\Fighter\Master Thrower build now, and while he's a glass cannon, he's a HELL of a cannon.
The fighter levels let me keep my BAB high and helpwed me earn the feats I needed for Master Thrower, and teh Rogue levels give me Sneak Attack (2d6 right now).
I'm currently at 11th level, and I'm useing TWF, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, and PB Shot with Shuriken. Becasue of L5 Master thrower, my Shuriken attack on Touch Attacks, and each attack is two shuriken, so with bane shuriken, I'm dishing out mad amounts of damage a round, even without SA. When I do get an attack from hiding, my DM has called it "walking backwards into the invisible bandsaw of doom."
I second what Blueluck mentioned. My thrower is also a Master Craftsman (Achemy) with a bent for trickery. Being able to whip up ungents, salves, oils, and poisons is key (esp.contact poisons), and creative use of Alchemy and mundane gear is fun as hell.
We haven't run into too many DR critters yet, but yeah, that's going to be a problem, but that's why I hide behind two monks, a Half-orc Fighter, and two dwarves. Anything I can't perforate get's poisoned\dirty tricked and the pipe-swingers get in there and clean house.
Ammo is becoming a bit of a problem, but I think that has more to do with my DM keeping us on the run constantly... we're not nearly as well-equipped as a group of borderline L12 PC's, but then, we're not going up against alot of the kinds of beasts that L12 PC's face. More Zombie Hordes, fewer Planar critters.
I've not heard of Point Blank Master, however... might need to look at that.
| Dragonsong |
Have you considered using the star-knife or wearing heavy armor and using the chakram from the APG? As to sneak attack, with gang up not working for ranged not real sure where you could go in that regard.
With the wording on returning weapon property as it is this idea may be a good use of vital strike line one massive throw per round?
| Thanatos95 |
I had played a Thrown weapon character in a campaign that went ninja/master thrower using harpoons from the stormwrak 3.5 book. they have a d10 damage die and a nice trailing rope for controlling the targets movement. of course, being ninja, i had about 50 shurikens, 20 knives, and 10 javelins hidden on his person most of the time.(and with his slight of hand check, even the prison cavity search couldn't find all of them that one time...)