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So I am trying to make a Fighter that is going to be either dual wielding or using a double-sword. I think the double-sword wins out in lower levels but higher level dual wielding wins out. Below is my thoughts and calculation on the matter. Keep in mind I am by no means an expert. I am posting this online hoping for your thoughtful input.
I think the double-sword win early levels because you can put out more damage, keep hit maxed and use only half of your total feats.
These were my restrictions when brainstorming.
The rules are we'll say level 5 Human fighter, 7 feats, 15 dexterity & strength, 2 attacks, all weapons involved are masterwork. I am also not trying to build a crit build so I will leave it out of this. And I am not using magic weapons as they can be thrown on any weapon without restriction.
So....
2 Shortswords do 6 damage top but we'll average it to 3 and thus average out 6 points of total damage
when they both hit before anything is added to them.
The feats you'd take are Weapon focus (Shortsword), Two-weapon fighting, Weapon specialization (ShortSword),
Slice and Dice.
So here are your stats
Hit: +8/+8 (+5 bab, +2 strength, +1 MWK, +1 weapon training, +1 weapon focus, -2 TWF penalty)
Damage: 2X 1D6+5 Shortsword (+2 Strenght, +1 weapon training, +2 weapon specialization) this is for both thanks to slice and dice.
Overall: 8 damage average per hit for a total of 16 damage. This give us a maximum damage of 22.
This is nice because you can apply feats to both short swords saving on feats, leaving 3 feats possibly taking weapon
finesse if you decide to go heavy dexterity later on.
1 long sword( average 4 dmg) 1 short sword(3 dmg) 7 total damage
Feats: Two weapon fighting, weapon focus (long sword), weapon focus (short sword), weapon specialization (long sword),
weapon specialization (short sword), slice and dice.
Hit: +8/+7 Longsword (+5 BAB, +2 strength, +1 weapon focus,
+1 weapon training, +1 MWK, -2 TWF)
Short sword (+5 BAB, +2 strength, +1 weapon focus, +1 MWK,
-2 TWF)
Damage: 1D8+5 Longsword (+2 strength, +1 weapon training,
+2 weapon specialization)
1D6+4 Shortsword (+2 strength, +2 weapon specialization)
Overall: 9 avergae damage from the longsword and 7 from the shortsword for a total of 16 damage. This gives us a maximum of 23 damage.
This style has a slightly lesser chance to hit, heavier in feats becuase you have to focus on both weapon individually (weapon sepicalization and weapons focus) unlike the dual shortsword build which share feats. This leaves you one remianing feat with about the same damage.
Double-sword average 4 dmg from each end and average a total of 8 average damage.
Feats: two-weapon fighting, weapon focus (double-sword), weapon specialization (double-sword), slice and deice, Exotic weapon profeciency.
Hit: +8/+8 Double-sword(+5 BAB, +2 strength, +1 weapon training, +1 MWK,
+1 weapon focus, -2 TWF)
Damage: 2X 1D8+5 Double-sword (+2 strength, +2 weapon specialization,
+1 weapon training)
Overall: 9 average damage per end giving you a total average of 18 damage. Maximum damage of 26.
This seems optimal because you are using almost as many feats as the dual shortsword build, you cheat the two-weapon fighting restrictions as one end is considered light. So you get 3 free feats and get the best damage and hit outcome of the three options.
The level 5 human fighter conclusion is double-sword is the winner. But what happens when you are level 15? You can't use
rend with a doublesword, you can not use two weapon defense. I guess you could equip a shield and
use the double sword one-handed until you know the foe is weak enough to start pounding on him wrecklessly. Does anyone
know what other factors can play into a level 15 fighters damage? Keep in mind I am not calculating magic weapons.
Double weapons have a few things going for them:
1. Your off-hand weapon generally deals more damage, while still counting as light
2. You can apply weapon-specific feats, such as weapon focus and specialization to both ends
3. You can use it as a two-handed weapon when you need to; usually when you're limited to a standard attack when moving or whatever.
The downside, obviously, is spending a feat; however, you can get around that by playing a dwarf, gnome, or half-orc, as they each get a double weapon reduced to a martial proficiency. So, being a human isn't necessarily that attractive unless you're married to a two-bladed sword rather than a double axe or urgrosh or whatever.
Note that you CAN use two-weapon defense with a double weapon; the feat's description specifically mentions double weapons. Two-Weapon Rend is more ambiguous by RAW, and the flavour seems to restrict it to two actual weapons rather than double weapons, but I don't think it would be unbalanced to allow it; unless you have seen official clarification, ask your GM. However, you can't use a two-bladed sword one-handed (with or without a shield in your off-hand), since it's a two-handed weapon. You'd need to be a size category larger than the weapon for that to work, which would be awkward (-2 penalty to hit).
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I am not saying this to counter you just letting you know what I am seeing.
Pg 144 PFRG states a double weapon can be wielded as a one-handed weapon, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielding it this way. So I could still technically use a shield with it. However I forgot that I could use it as a two-handed weapon for the one time strikes, thanks that is very helpful, might make taking vital strike useful.
Pg 136 PFRG Rend; Two-weapon rend wouldn't be a bad thing to give, it does state "Striking with both weapons simultaneously". this is the same for Two-weapon defense but again not a game killer.
I chose human for the extra feat to off-set the exotic weapon proficiency. I took Double sword because of the damage output thus throwing out the Dwarven Urgosh. I did forget about the Orc Double Axe, this removes the need for the extra feat and since I am not focused on critical attacks the smaller crit chance doesn't effect it at all. Making the double sword or double orc axe a flavor choice.
Bacon thanks for your input, this is very helpful.
Pg 144 PFRG states a double weapon can be wielded as a one-handed weapon, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielding it this way. So I could still technically use a shield with it. However I forgot that I could use it as a two-handed weapon for the one time strikes, thanks that is very helpful, might make taking vital strike useful.
Yeah, this text has always been ambiguous to me. It doesn't say that a creature can use a double weapon in one hand, it just tells you what happens if you DO:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
There is a "can" when talking about attacking with just one end, but no "can" when talking about using it one-handed. I think the one-handed rule is for large characters picking up a medium double weapon (or a medium character with a double weapon sized for a small character, etc).
Again, though, ask your GM. ^__^
I chose human for the extra feat to off-set the exotic weapon proficiency. I took Double sword because of the damage output thus throwing out the Dwarven Urgosh. I did forget about the Orc Double Axe, this removes the need for the extra feat and since I am not focused on critical attacks the smaller crit chance doesn't effect it at all. Making the double sword or double orc axe a flavor choice.
Yeah, I think a half-orc is a great bet. Darkvision is super, and you can put that +2 ability bonus wherever you like. You have your choice of an orc double axe, or the APG has an alternate racial trait that gives you the double flail; handy if you want to trip or disarm, but bad crits otherwise.
The urgrosh isn't too bad, despite the d6 off-hand damage. It's sometimes useful to be able to do have two different types of damage (P and S), but that's fairly situational. Double damage when you ready against a charge is situational, too, but handy when it works out. Dwarf is a fine choice if you were planning on using medium armor anyway (so you'd have 20' speed either way). Lots of awesome resistances which are great for a fighter, but the stat bonuses don't help you in the Str and Dex department. I think I prefer the half-orc.
Are you going to use the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype out of the APG? It's a little weak at low levels, but offers some great abilities at high levels, especially if you actually use two different weapons. If you're starting at level 5, though, it's not so hot.
The doublesword gives both options, but two handed weapons do more damage so if you just want damage just go with a two-handed weapon.
Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
If you use a shield then you can't use it as a double weapon until the shield is put away. Before you make this character you should decide how you want to fight because switching between all 3 won't work. If you are going TWF for sure, then the best route is using the shield as the off hand weapon and taking the appropriate feats so you get the AC bonus from it.
Odd advantage of two-bladed weapons: Attacks of Opportunity.
Since you're wielding it two-handed and dual-wielding at the same time, you can do two-weapon fighting during your round and still get 1.5x "two-handed fighting" multipliers for attacks of opportunity.
I recommend combat reflexes.
+1 wraithstrike! Double weapons are looking better and better.
- One weapon rather than two to use TWF means you can save on feats, without having to use a light weapon in each hand.
- The option of wielding the weapon as a 2-hander for single attacks when you charge, move, or opportunity, giving higher damage.
- The option of wielding the weapon 1-handed when you only have one hand free or want to use a shield.
I'm making a Fighter (or possibly a Barbarian) for a campaign that's about to start, and I was considering TWF wielding two kukri. The plan would be to work on TWF feats early, then get critical feats at levels 8-15.
- The two-bladed sword would definitely serve me better at levels 1-7 (no critical feats yet)
- probably better even while getting Improved Critical at 8, Critical Focus at 9, and no crit feat at 10.
- Maybe even still better after 11&12 (Bleeding Critical)
- Maybe even still better after 13 (Staggering Critical)
- I'm not sure after 14 (Critical Mastery)
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My (hastily built) level 5 human fighter (vanilla archetype)
Say (20 pt buy):
18 (racial bonus included)
15
15
10
10
7
Level 1: Two-bladed sword Prof
Level 1: Two-weapon fighting
Level 2: Double Slice/Power Attack
Level 3: (the other one from level 2)
Level 4: Weapon Focus (two-bladed sword), +1 con (nothin' like a little HP for the defense starved DPS guy)
Level 5: Weapon Specialization (two-bladed sword), weapon training (heavy blade)
Normal attack: +9/+9 for 1d8+7
Power Attack: +7/+7 for 1d8+11
Single/Opportunity Attack: +11 for 1d8+9
Single/Opportunity (Power) Attack: +9 for 1d8+15
Since you only have moderate dex investment and now have armor training +1 you can equip full-plate for +9 AC and have 21 before any other benefits, which isn't terrible for level 5. Throw on a low-end enchantment, ring or amulet for another point or three and you'll probably be okay. With 10,500gp you should be able to afford +2 full plate (puts AC at 23), a +1 weapon (both ends) and some misc gear.
Also note that as your dex rises (from magic items) your armor training should keep the max dex bonus up. If not, throw mithril on there (at higher levels) for some buffer.
NOTE: Get a belt of dexterity by level 6 so you can take improved two-weapon fighting (and eventually greater). If you lose the belt you lose access to the feat(s), but then you can just two-handed fight for extra damage.
Why the double sword? I don't mean to derail the thread here, but did anyone see the Meteor Hammer in the Adventurer's Armory? It's Exotic, but it's a 1d10 double trip weapon with a 19-20x2 crit and reach. And, as a free action at the beginning of your turn, you can decide not to use it as a double weapon, and gain a +1 shield bonus instead.
You can go Half Elf and give up Adaptability for Ancestral Arms and lose the ability to take 2 Favored Classes for Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency of your choice.
You have misread some thing here: Ancestral Arms trades for Adaptability, which is the free Skill Focus feat. The 2 favored classes is the Multitalented racial ability.