Elemental Rogue - Help

[Doc Cosmic]

So, I have this idea of a character, and I am looking for some additional help in "scultping" him to be a good team participant. Primarily for PFS play, for those who want to help with the build.

So the build is Sorcerer 1/Rogue 11, with the elemental-air bloodline.

Halfling with the "swift as shadows" for sniping.

On snipes, the character would do 1d3 (acid, cold or electric) plus 6d6. That is pretty respectable (at least I think so) for a snipe, considering the character would be able to punch through DR, and find the weak resist.

The problem I am having, is how to get the sneak attack damage when the character is unable to snipe (being observed, etc etc) without screwing the rest of the party by dropping a darkness in order to gain the needed concealment, or dropping his DPS even more by having to spend one round hiding and the one round attacking.

I think the character idea is a neat concept. But I just can't seem to make him "shine" as a contributor. Since his rogue base makes him skill monkey/ dpr, he is able to find a weakness in his enemies and exploit it.

Anyone have any ideas, to help this character become more than a neat idea?

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Do you have the APG? Vanish could be very handy.

Can you qualify for the Shadowdancer PrC? Or the Arcane Archer*?

* James Jacobs has posted before that the elf or half-elf requirement is an errata; your halfling should be able to take the AA PrC assuming he meets the other prerequisites.

[james maissen]

Doc Cosmic wrote:

The problem I am having, is how to get the sneak attack damage when the character is unable to snipe (being observed, etc etc) without screwing the rest of the party by dropping a darkness in order to gain the needed concealment, or dropping his DPS even more by having to spend one round hiding and the one round attacking.

If you have skill focus: stealth, then the feat 'hell cat stealth' will let you stealth in bright light even when observed just at a -10 penalty (which as a halfling w/ skill focus you should still be fine with taking).

Doc Cosmic wrote:

I think the character idea is a neat concept. But I just can't seem to make him "shine" as a contributor. Since his rogue base makes him skill monkey/ dpr, he is able to find a weakness in his enemies and exploit it.

Anyone have any ideas, to help this character become more than a neat idea?

Well while this sounds really cool and all, you're not really dealing enough damage here. Delivering 24 average damage (6d6 avg 21, 1d3 avg 2, PBS 1) in a round at 12th level is not 'DPS' but rather 'yay team'.

What do you want out of this PC?

-James

[Doc Cosmic]

The goal of the build is not really to be the best DPR in the group, but it is to be the most versatile, offering several different damage types that do decent damage if his pair of short swords isn't getting through the DR of the baddie. (I have a lovely habit of rolling 1s, so my average for 6d6 is generally in the 15-18 range) but if all of it gets through...20 points of damage every round (since 0th level spells don't require slots) is not a bad contribution.

This keeps him out of dangerous melee for the first couple rounds while the fighters eliminate minions/get set up around the big baddie, which is good since he will be "delicate". Then when he can see the area to move in and flank, draw his short swords and take advantage of the opening (if his short swords will get through DR).

Secondarily, with access to K(arcana), K(dungeoneering), K(planes) and a big load of skill points, I was going to make him a "monster knowledge" kinda guy with a trait to open up K(nature).

****
Yes, I have the APG. I have looked at the inquisitor, but couldn't justify the dip since any additional non-rogue levels will sap another sneak attack die.
****

This is also a "project" to see how well the pathfinder system can [using the rules] match up to people imaginations. And in my minds'eye I see elemental blasts hitting the BBEGs from seemingly out of nowhere, with the appropriate giggles and insults that go along with it :)

PS- I looked at arcane trickster, but the entry requirements really didn't match up with the character idea, but in order to make the character work in a more team contribution way, I may have to invest in that prestige class. I am open to suggestions, and really want to start a dialogue to see what we all can make :)

[james maissen]

Doc Cosmic wrote:

The goal of the build is not really to be the best DPR in the group, but it is to be the most versatile, offering several different damage types that do decent damage if his pair of short swords isn't getting through the DR of the baddie.

Okay, my suggestion is to pass on the level of sorcerer and simply take ranks in UMD.

You can pick up and use wands that won't provoke, and won't cost you a BAB, hps, and skills.

Now that you are talking wanting to be a monster knowledge guy, versatile, and cast a bit.. have you considered a halfling bard rather than rogue?

As to elemental blasts out of nowhere hurting the bad guys, I'd suggest a shadow sorcerer out of the APG rather than a rogue.

-James

[nothingpoetic]

Doc -

Going with an Arcane Archer and Imbuing your arrows with some elemental damage, would add to the 1d3 elemental you will be able to do via sorceror. There are some huge benefits and drawbacks to sniping, the main one being still doing a pretty decent amount of damage in one shot without actually becoming a threat.

That being said, in terms of being able to still actually do something while not stealthed. Vanish is a rogues dream spell I have decided.. a lvl 1 spell that lets you go invisible for a round per caster up to 5 rounds. Not much, but enough to get a sneak attack started as well as pumping out a full round action on your target. The grease spell makes opponents flat-footed if they move through the square, whether they make the save or not, and that would allow for a full round sneak attack which seems to be pretty nasty.

Deadly aim, Vital strike, focused shot, and such should help to add some static damage to all those d6's. The surprise round talents for the rogue also will get you a full round sneak attack against most opponents as well.

There are some things you can do, but the idea here would be to limit the amount of attention you draw to yourself and hitting someone in the first round with 4 arrows and 18d6 (since manyshot doesn't get sneak attack) of sneak attack, plus a slew of elemental damage, might be a bad way to fly under the radar.

[calagnar]

I have to agree bard is a much better choice. I realy like battle bards thow. You are able to fill multiple rolls in the party. Front line fighting, Arcane buffing, healing, and the all important songs. Over all you don't do as well solo. With the buffs a bard can do. You realy can do with out a arcane caster.

1. Bards are one of the most versatile classes.
2. Versatal Weapon + Knowlange X = you can buy pass most weapon damage for your self or other people in the group.
3. No one will trun down bard songs. They won't complane that your given them a + to hit and damage. They won't complane when you fasanate the bad guys.
4. And if thay do complane you can just Diplomacy or Bluff your way out of it with versatal performance.
5. No one truns down haste.

If your going Rogue. There are only a few classes that realy help you. Ranger is a good choice it gives you almost full skills and martal weapons. Monk is not a bad choice. Not one I use becous of RP reasons.

[Doc Cosmic]

So from what it looks like, I won't be able to create little balls of elemental energy to hurl at my opponents. I will have to take the Arcane Archer prestige class in order to imbue my arrows to elicit the effect. So, just have to modify the vision a bit...

So, would you say: Fighter 2, Rogue 3, Wizard 1, Fighter 1, Arcane Archer 3, Arcane Trickster 2 for the 12 levels?

BAB: +8
CL (arcane) 5
SA: +3d6

That means I could Gravity Bow, and Haste with Rapid Shot and Many Shot, which on a sneak attack would do 6d6 (2d6 bow, 1d6 elemental, 3d6 sneak attack) and I could shoot 4 arrows at BAB-2, and one arrow at BAB-7.

What do you all think of that. Dex and Int being the two most important stats...more dex than int.

[Ice Titan]

Doc Cosmic wrote:

So from what it looks like, I won't be able to create little balls of elemental energy to hurl at my opponents. I will have to take the Arcane Archer prestige class in order to imbue my arrows to elicit the effect. So, just have to modify the vision a bit...

So, would you say: Fighter 2, Rogue 3, Wizard 1, Fighter 1, Arcane Archer 3, Arcane Trickster 2 for the 12 levels?

BAB: +8
CL (arcane) 5
SA: +3d6

That means I could Gravity Bow, and Haste with Rapid Shot and Many Shot, which on a sneak attack would do 6d6 (2d6 bow, 1d6 elemental, 3d6 sneak attack) and I could shoot 4 arrows at BAB-2, and one arrow at BAB-7.

What do you all think of that. Dex and Int being the two most important stats...more dex than int.

You're not getting more than 1 shot with sneak attack.

At level 12 to be an acceptable melee combatant you need to hit a 26 on a 9 with your highest BAB attack.

I see this build having a +15 (+3 bow, +5 dex mod, pbs) on those rapidshot/manyshot attacks. +16 with haste. BAB +8, so +12 for Deadly Aim.

Without Deadly Aim, you're looking at... +16/+16/+16/+11 for 4d6+1d6+3d6+4 and then 2d6+1d6+4 x3.

Average damage for the round? 76 or so. With Deadly Aim you could keep up with other primary damage dealers but you can no longer hit the enemy.

I would really look into dropping the arcane trickster levels (why?) and the rogue levels and just taking more arcane archer levels if you want to be an archer.. or dropping the wizard and arcane archer levels and going rogue if you want to be a rogue. Sneak Attack is not a valuable contribution to your combat potential unless you can do it as often as possible-- and after your first sneak attack, you're pretty much out of luck unless you can find a way to get concealment again, which could vary from easy to impossible in a variety of every day situations. (easy in a forest, impossible in a city street, easy at night, impossible in a lit dungeon).

You'll not only spend more rounds playing and less rounds fumbling around trying to stealth again, but if you encounter any creatures who have long-range senses such as life-sense, tremorsense or blightsight you won't have to idly pluck away with 3d6+4 damage.

Also, uh... halflings don't have darkvision, so dropping a darkness on yourself as a halfling for concealment would just deny you sneak attacks and make everyone really mad.

[Doc Cosmic]

Well darn,

So pretty much this character idea is a neat concept, but using cannot be a meaningful contributor to a team using the pathfinder system :(

Thanks for trying though :(

[james maissen]

Doc Cosmic wrote:

So from what it looks like, I won't be able to create little balls of elemental energy to hurl at my opponents.

Again I'll say shadow bloodline sorcerer should likely do what you are looking for it to do.

-James

[nothingpoetic]

Titan, why is he not getting more than one sneak attack off a round? If here had invisibility than the first one and it drops he loses agreed. But if the target is just actually flat-footed, he can pelt away and every attack (not the manyshot though) would deal sneak attack damage, at least thats how I understand Pathfinder to work.

I think Doc you can totally pull it off, but I think you need to specialize. Do you want to snipe? Do you want to be a buffer, do you want to be a damage dealer? In terms of that concept, a rogue/arcane archer that can imbue their arrows with say, elemental burst and an Area of Effect spell which added to sneak attack makes a pretty effective sniper.

Quote:

At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting. The arrow must be fired during the round that the casting is completed or the spell is wasted. If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted."

That is the imbue arrows ability mechanics at least, which means you could imbue a spell and add it to your single attack as a standard action. The one thing you need to figure out is what spells that means. An area spell, isn't just an area of effect, which is what I thought, but 3 levels in wizard might be able to get you enough spells.. as it gives you some level 2 spells. The spell list would be the biggest question for me and that would determine the build.

However, if you want a sneak attack, sniping, elemental bursting, spell character.. you could totally make it happen.

[sir_shajir]

A character that I built for fun was a arcane trickster, at higher levels I would cast greater invisibility on myself and do full round actions with sneak attack dice that would apply. It wasn't optimized or anything, but the character was versatile and fun to play with, as it was super stealthy and would be able to do many things that an average wizard or rogue would do.

[Leonardo Trancoso]

With Shadow Dancer 1 you will get Hide in plain sight

Hide = move
Shot = standard
Hide = move
Shot = standard
Hide = move
Shot = standard
Hide = move
Shot = standard

[nothingpoetic]

20 point buy
Halfing with Swift as Shadows alternate class feature
Lvl 13

Str - 10 2 pt
Dex - 21 10 pt
Con - 10 0 pt
Int - 16 10 pt
Wis - 12 2 pt
Cha - 9 -4 pt

Fighter 1 (longbow prof.)
Rogue 3 (Sniper Variant)
Wizard 3
Rogue 3
Arcane Archer 3

BAB + 9

1 Feat - PBS
Bonus Feat - Precise Shot
3 Feat - Weapon Focus (Longbow)
3 Talent - Bleeding Attack
5 Feat - Focused Shot
7 Feat - Deadly Aim
8 Talent - Fast Stealth
9 Feat - Skill Focus - Stealth
10 Talent - Sniper's Eye
11 Feat - Vital Strike
13 Feat - Stealthy

Area Spells that seem worthwhile -
Level 1 - 4 spells
Burning Hands
Colorspray

Level 2 - 3 Spells
Arrow Eruption
Fire Breath
Glitterdust
Shatter
Stone Call

Level 3 - 2 Spells
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Lightning Bolt
Sleet Storm

Level 4 Spells (avaiable at Lvl 16)
Black Tentacles
Detonate
Dragon's Breath
Fear
Ice Storm
River of Wind
Shout

Level 5 Spells (available at Lvl 18)
Cone of Cold
False Vision
Fire Snake
Transmute stuff
Waves of Fatigue

Not counting any kind of magical items, which at level 13, you will have a substantial bank account to get those, you are looking at a sniping action that does 2d6 +3 (Focused shot) +4 (deadly Aim) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 6d6 (fireball)

I think that might accomplish the feel that you were looking for, and allows you to still be very good at sniping.

13 ranks + 3 Class skill + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Stealth + 4 Racial +4 Dex = +29 to stealth and a dc of their perception +10 against you. Once you start counting some items in there... that will get disgusting fast.

You can do a lot of damage, play the concept you want, and stay out of the line of fire all at the same time.

[james maissen]

nothingpoetic wrote:

I think that might accomplish the feel that you were looking for, and allows you to still be very good at sniping.

13 ranks + 3 Class skill + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Stealth + 4 Racial +4 Dex = +29 to stealth and a dc of their perception +10 against you. Once you start counting some items in there... that will get disgusting fast.

You can do a lot of damage, play the concept you want, and stay out of the line of fire all at the same time.

Three things here. First for 13th level, that's not a lot of damage. Second, he's talking PFS which caps play at 12th level.

And third, your stealth numbers are off:

13 ranks +3 class skill + 6 skill focus (with 10+ ranks) + 2 racial + 4 size + 5 DEX = 33 stealth before items.

If your concept is simply to snipe with ranged attack spells to deal decent damage then again I'll say shadow bloodline sorcerer is more than sufficient for this. By 9th level you get HiPS when near shadows, stealth as a class skill, skill focus: stealth as a bonus feat option, you can take the feat: hellcat stealth for when outside of shadows and in general things without a good perception check should never see you unless you want to be seen.

Stats (20pt buy)
STR 5 (-4pts, -2 racial mod)
INT 14 (5 pts)
WIS 07 (-4pts)
DEX 16 (5pts, +2 racial mod)
CON 14 (5pts)
CHA 19 (13pts, +2 racial mod) (bumping CHA at 4th, 8th & 12th)

Skills: Stealth (max ranks), UMD (up to a point), bluff (max ranks), disguise (max ranks), the rest salt to taste. Later on pick up a +2 INT stone for diplomacy.

I also would tend to head to diabolist after sorcerer9.

Now consider that originally you were looking at 1d3+6d6 damage, a mere scorching ray is going to deal 12d6 fire at that point with more than twice the range. With level 2 diabolist you can exchange that fire for hellfire to ignore any fire resistance. Sure you can't do it ad infinitum, but you can do so for more rounds than you'll have combat in a PFS mod.

-James

[Doc Cosmic]

Can you have a stat that low in PFS? I thought there was a limit as to how many negatives you could have.

I will have to look at the shadow sorcerer when we get back home. We ended up having to go to the hospital across the state for my daughter, and I don't have the APG at hand to take a look at :(

I was hoping to be able to do spells and sword with the character, but it does look like being a pure caster would be best.

So, if I can snipe, with a ray...does that mean I would make attacks against a flat-footed, touch AC? That would be like AC what...15 max?? That is fantastic.

[nothingpoetic]

James - Thanks for catching my mistakes, still relatively new at character creation in PF and I always seem to miss something.

Doc - My apologies, I thought you were looking for a ranged rogue build that used spells. In that instance the Arcane Archer looked to be your best idea, but if you are looking at going melee when you aren't sniping away with your rays, than I think I would agree with what many said in that Arcane Trickster seems to fit the mold. It progresses both spellcasting and sneak attack as base classes, meaning you could take a level in wizard/sorcerer/witch/bard and the rest in rogue, and you could still be packing a pretty hefty sneak attack along with your spells.

The only class that has a 3/4's BAB out of those is the Bard and it doesn't really give you a ton of spells that are direct damage though. You might just want to look at investing a level or two in sorceror, and then progressing spellcasting via arcane trickster.

And sniping would be the same action I would assume with a ray as it is a ranged attack. You could use a standard action to cast the ray, then your move action would be a stealth check to remain hidden from who you just hit and you would take a -20 penalty, (-10 with halfing swift as shadows) and size doesn't effect your damage output.