Monster Ecology: The Frogs

[W E Ray]

I've been struggling with this for a while . . . .

What's the difference between a Bullywug and a Boggard (frog-people)?!

Moreover, how do I connect them, monster-ecology-wise, with the Grippli (treefrog-people)?!

And really, I'd like to see a Racial Subcategory of Boggard, Bullywug, Grippli, Lizard Folk, and even Tasloi, not unlike the Goblinoid subcategory.

But it all starts with -- W.T.F. is the difference between a Boggard and a Bullywug?

If for no other reason, why would I choose Bullywugs instead of Boggards when designing an encounter?

PS -- if any info from STAP and "The Bullywug Gambit" is useful here, please do not list it as STAP related or, at least PLEASE use a Spoiler Tag (And realize I won't be able to look :(

Thanks Paizonians!

[Gorbacz]

Bullywugs are WotC IP.

Paizo needed a frogman race.

Hello, Boggards !

[W E Ray]

Boggards are much older than Paizo.

(And ultimately it doesn't help if that were the answer -- Mind Flayers, Beholders and Yuan Ti are WotC's and I'm still using them)

[Tarren Dei]

Boggards smoke a lot of dope, hence the expression, "Don't boggard that joint, my friend."

[Gorbacz]

You asked what is the difference between Boggard and Bullywug.

The difference is that Paizo can use the name Boggard and can't use the name Bullywug. That's why the Golarion frogmen are called Boggards.

[W E Ray]

But Boggards have been around since 1E.

I can certainly understand why Paizo can't publish material with Bullywugs -- but my homegame isn't gonna be published by Paizo.

I don't want to just pretend Bullywugs don't exist. That's like pretending Mind Flayers, etc. don't exist.

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Even if all I can come up with is that they're different breeds, like Great Danes and Poodles, it'd be good to see if anything has been published on these guys about this.

[Gorbacz]

Rain, Parade, Want, Not - but I don't recall a Boggard monster in 1E/2E/3E history. It's always been Bullywugs (and Gripplis later on).

[Tangible Delusions]

I believe the Boggard is Paizo's version of the Bullywug like Gorbacz said.

Maybe the 1e/2e/3e creature you are thinking of is the Boggart, a fey creature?

[W E Ray]

Really?

I seem to remember Boggards in some old Dungeon adventures but I could be just getting a trifle more insane.

I'll ask Rezdave to check Dungeon for Boggards -- he has a spred sheet with all the monsters, settings, plots, etc from the mag's history -- and will likely be able to answer before I get home tonight and check through my old dusty Tomes.

If you're right and Boggards are brand new I have no problem pretending they don't exist just like Tengu and Serpent People.

[Wicht]

What's wrong with serpent people: they are a staple of pulp and lovecraftian fiction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Men

[Gorbacz]

Yep. There were Boggarts, fey homonoculus kind of things, but Boggards are brand new.

[W E Ray]

Wicht wrote:

What's wrong with serpent people?

They're Yuan Ti.

There's nothing wrong with them.

But they're Yuan Ti.

Why call 'em something else?

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I know lots of folks have pointed out that Tengu are more accurate to the original concept and are "better" than "Kenku" so I understand why people would pooh pooh me for eliminating Tengu.

But Serpent People are just Yuan Ti.

If Paizo makes a floating eye monster I'm calling it a Beholder no matter what they have to call it, yeas?

[W E Ray]

Gorbacz wrote:

Yep. There were Boggarts, fey homonoculus kind of things, but Boggards are brand new.

LOL!!!

Awesome, my wonderful memory that is...

Okay, lemme change my OP -- How could we connect, in a Racial Subcategory & monster-ecology-wise, Bullywugs, Grippli, Lizard Folk, Tasloi and Boggarts? (Or should Boggarts stay as Fey?)

[Gorbacz]

Except that Yuan-Ti are a cheap rip off the serpentfolk. Serpentfolk were there first, but WotC took their "let's name it so we can copyright them" policy and so Yuan-Ti were born.

Having read the Serpentfolk ecology article in Serpent's Skull, I am fully convinced that serpentfolk > Y-T on all counts. :)

[Wicht]

Yeah, its the yaun-ti that are knock-offs. Serpent folks are the progenitors.

[W E Ray]

It may very well be true that Yuan Ti are a cheap rip off -- I guess just like Kenku.

But I dunno, I've been playing with Yuan Ti for a long time and they've been among my absolute favs since Jason Kuhl's "Slave Vats of the Yuan Ti" in Dungeon 69.

I can't change their name.

It'd be like calling a Kenku a Tengu. It just feels wierd. Actually even a bit worse, at least "Yuan Ti" sounds cool. For serious, "Super"-man "Bat"-man, "Wonder"-woman -- ALL suck. Green Lantern and Firestorm and Submariner, on the other hand -- they're Fonzy cool.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Kenku aren't Tengu. They're pretty different races, and you could probably include both (Tengu being an eastern variation of kenku). Boggards and bullywugs (but not grippli)are pretty similar, though. The names are the only significant difference. I think, I'm not too familiar with bullywugs. I'd suggest having different names used by different people. Maybe the boggards call themselves bullywugs.

[bigkilla]

Necromancer games had a version of their froglike peoples called the Tsathar who worship the Cthuhlu like god Tsathogga, I believe they first appeared in D1 Tomb of Absythor.

[Wolf Munroe]

W E Ray wrote:

It may very well be true that Yuan Ti are a cheap rip off -- I guess just like Kenku.

But I dunno, I've been playing with Yuan Ti for a long time and they've been among my absolute favs since Jason Kuhl's "Slave Vats of the Yuan Ti" in Dungeon 69.

I can't change their name.

It'd be like calling a Kenku a Tengu. It just feels wierd. Actually even a bit worse, at least "Yuan Ti" sounds cool. For serious, "Super"-man "Bat"-man, "Wonder"-woman -- ALL suck. Green Lantern and Firestorm and Submariner, on the other hand -- they're Fonzy cool.

You don't have to change their name. Maybe yuan-ti is what the serpentfolk in your campaign refer to themselves as. Maybe wizards and intellectuals call them yuan-ti but to the average adventurer they are serpentfolk and to the commoners they're snake-men.

Boggards, bullywugs? When my players see it, it will be described as "frog-like." What's that expression? "Would a rose by any other name still smell as sweet?"

Though personally I do like tengu better. I was aware of them prior to seeing the kenku as a WotC IP. I did like the kenku but never got a chance to use them. Now my kenku miniatures will be used for tengus.

Actually, I like boggards better than bullywugs because the only way I ever knew bullywugs was as common miniatures in random D&D Miniatures boosters where I went "What the Hell's a bullywug?" But now! Now I know what a boggard is and those bullywug miniatures will serve as such.

[W E Ray]

Wolf Munroe wrote:

You don't have to change their name. Maybe yuan-ti is what the serpentfolk in your campaign refer to themselves as. Maybe wizards and intellectuals call them yuan-ti but to the average adventurer they are serpentfolk and to the commoners they're snake-men.

Yeah, this is cool -- when my PCs meet a commoner he'll likely describe the monster as a "snake-man" cuz he has no knowledge skills -- and because it's fun for the Players to try and guess what the monster is: "You said it looked like a cross between a bear and an owl?!"

Wolf Munroe wrote:

Though personally I do like tengu better. I was aware of them prior to seeing the kenku as a WotC IP. I did like the kenku but never got a chance to use them. Now my kenku miniatures will be used for tengus.

Yeah, lots of gamers have been mentioning this over the last year or so as more and more conversations of Kenku (and Tengu) have come up. I accept that I'm in the minority in treating Tengu as non-existant creatures and using the their new crunch and fluff as the Kenku I've known and used.

Wolf Munroe wrote:

Actually, I like boggards better than bullywugs because the only way I ever knew bullywugs was as common miniatures in random D&D Miniatures boosters where I went "What the Hell's a bullywug?" But now! Now I know what a boggard is and those bullywug miniatures will serve as such.

Yeah, my OP was screwed up -- my memory mixed Boggart with Boggard. I think I was browsing Kingmaker a while back and there was some Boggards somewhere and I wondered what the difference between Boggard and Bullywug was, not realizing I was thinking of just the name, "Boggart" from the past.

I didn't have time last night to crack open my old monster books and read about Boggarts -- to see if they can fit with Lizard Folk, Grippli, Bullywugs and (hopefully) Tasloi -- I'd really like to lump them together in a Racial Subcategory and work on their racial origins and creation myths (eventually).

[Shizvestus]

Bog´gard
n. 1. A bogey.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co.

[Shizvestus]

"Boggart" was first used in popular English literature: sometime before 1863

In British folklore, a boggart (or bogart, bogan, bogle or boggle) is a household spirit/faerie which causes things to disappear, milk to sour, and dogs to go lame. Always malevolent, the boggart will follow its family wherever they flee. In Northern England, at least, there was the belief that the boggart should never be named, for when the boggart was given a name, it would not be reasoned with or persuaded and become uncontrollable and destructive.

It is said that the boggart crawls into people's beds at night and puts a clammy hand on their faces. Sometimes he strips the bedsheets off them. Sometimes a boggart will also pull on a person's ears. Hanging a horseshoe on the door of a house is said to keep a boggart away.

In the folklore of North-West England, boggarts live under bridges on dangerous sharp bends on roads, and it is considered bad luck for drivers not to offer their polite greetings as they cross.