I might just be misunderstanding the Tower Shield Proficiency feat here, but does it negate the -2 effect from wielding it in combat?
The tower shield is described as being so unweildy as to give you a -2 penalty.
No, that's with proficiency, too. Proficient characters still suffer the -2 penalty to hit.
Curses! >_<
The cleric isn't gonna like this!
(thanks, btw)
Curses! >_<
The cleric isn't gonna like this!
(thanks, btw)
Cleric's are proficient btw.
I inferred that "The cleric isn't gonna like this!" meant that the Cleric spent a feat (or dipped into Fighter) to get the shield proficiency, and is about to find out that he's suffering a sudden -2 to hit.
It's a little like having 2 points of Combat Expertise, but the problem is you can't turn it "off" when you need offense more then defense (short of just dropping the shield). The ability to take cover is nice for advancing on archers, or avoiding AoOs when you really need to position yourself somewhere funny in a melee, but those are pretty situational uses.
I inferred that "The cleric isn't gonna like this!" meant that the Cleric spent a feat (or dipped into Fighter) to get the shield proficiency, and is about to find out that he's suffering a sudden -2 to hit.
It's a little like having 2 points of Combat Expertise, but the problem is you can't turn it "off" when you need offense more then defense (short of just dropping the shield). The ability to take cover is nice for advancing on archers, or avoiding AoOs when you really need to position yourself somewhere funny in a melee, but those are pretty situational uses.
Do you think it's worth it anyway to have it?
The cleric player wants to do it more for style than for anything. (it's also a pretty weak cleric who's far better at his spellcasting than anything resembling physical combat)
It's only two points better than heavy steel shield and one point better than a +1 heavy steel shield (which the cleric already has).
Is a tower shield worth having for a cleric? Well, it depends.
A tower shield is great if you're going to almost entirely forgo combat and focus on casting or something else. Otherwise, the cleric will need a free hand to cast spells, and the hand holding the tower shield is useless, so having a conventional weapon in hand is messy; you wind up dropping your weapon every time you want to cast a spell, or waste slots on Still Spell. (However, if the GM is okay with it, you can attach a "weapon cord" from the APG to your weapon; let's you drop it, then retrieve it as a swift action. It's silly to have a weapon dangling from what is essentially a mitten string, but the rule is just sitting there asking to be used.)
If you mostly forget combat, however, you can put on a spiked gauntlet or brass knuckles or something (so that you are at least armed and can make AoOs or attacks when you really need to). You can still be useful when not casting by taking total cover as a standard action and using your move to get into a tough flanking position. And if you happen to have any neat abilities as a move action, you can use those from total cover, too. Even when you take cover, you still threaten squares, so you can make AoOs.
However, if you aren't going to take advantage of the cover ability, the tower shield isn't really worth it; I'd rather just have Combat Expertise, since you can turn it on and off, and the bonus eventually gets better (though, so does the penalty). Plus, the thing is heavy as hell and takes up a hand. If the cleric wants to fight but he's already having trouble, that -2 penalty is really going to hurt.
That said, thumbs up for wanting something for the sake of style. Suffering for flavour is worth it, in my opinion - what's the point of winning if you can't do it in style? ^__^
Can't the tower shield troubles be somewhat remedied with feats?
No just three levels of fighter (phalanx archtype).
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The tower shields, when all rules are applied, is never worth using.
Thats because it has a -10 armor check penalty. So you get -10 to stealth checks or -9 in case of masterwork.
So a cleric not having ranks in stealth with medium armor, tower shield and dex 12 has effective skill of -11.A battle is a -10 to hear. So the cleric with the tower shield walking around is louder than a battle and easy to hear through doors or around corners. So any enemy with hearing will know about something approaching.
In case a scout wants to scout ahead, he has to move so far ahed, that the cleric isnt louder. As it is -1 per 10 feet and the scout has something like +10 stealth, he should move 210 feets ahead of the clric, otherwise his sneaking will be irrelevant, because the cleric is louder.
Unless the cleric stops moving while they scout in stages. Not moving is effectively a +20 because you're very unlikely to make noise (see Invisibility for a reference on this modifier). Still annoying, though.
You could also help negate that by putting silencing effects on the armor, but that costs money.But yeah, I agree that it mildly sucks that you get a "hidden" -2 to attack when using a tower shield, but it *is* basically a reinforced door with a handle. That crap *can't* be easy to use.
Anywho, with Mithril and Armor Training 4 you can get the armor check penalty down to -3. Not bad. The cleric is kinda screwed, it won't go lower than -7 for them.
A tower shield is great if you're going to almost entirely forgo combat and focus on casting or something else. Otherwise, the cleric will need a free hand to cast spells, and the hand holding the tower shield is useless, so having a conventional weapon in hand is messy; you wind up dropping your weapon every time you want to cast a spell, or waste slots on Still Spell.
I just realized something here. How does a regular shield work with spellcasting?
Assume the cleric is carrying a weapon in one hand and a steel shield in the other. Does this mean the cleric must drop the weapon to cast spells? Somatic components require one hand free, yes?
A tower shield is great if you're going to almost entirely forgo combat and focus on casting or something else. Otherwise, the cleric will need a free hand to cast spells, and the hand holding the tower shield is useless, so having a conventional weapon in hand is messy; you wind up dropping your weapon every time you want to cast a spell, or waste slots on Still Spell.I just realized something here. How does a regular shield work with spellcasting?
Assume the cleric is carrying a weapon in one hand and a steel shield in the other. Does this mean the cleric must drop the weapon to cast spells? Somatic components require one hand free, yes?
You can still cast spells with a light shield or a buckler as per JB.
Personally I find the buckler is generally the best choice of a shield, with the heavy shield being good if you want to have something to bash with. Phalanx fighters make the tower shield a worthy choice if you take some of the other shield feats in the APG.
The tower shields, when all rules are applied, is never worth using.
Thats because it has a -10 armor check penalty. So you get -10 to stealth checks or -9 in case of masterwork.
So a cleric not having ranks in stealth with medium armor, tower shield and dex 12 has effective skill of -11.A battle is a -10 to hear. So the cleric with the tower shield walking around is louder than a battle and easy to hear through doors or around corners. So any enemy with hearing will know about something approaching.
In case a scout wants to scout ahead, he has to move so far ahed, that the cleric isnt louder. As it is -1 per 10 feet and the scout has something like +10 stealth, he should move 210 feets ahead of the clric, otherwise his sneaking will be irrelevant, because the cleric is louder.
The silly thing is that the armor check penalty only applies if you are "using" it - gripping it by the arm. A friend's fighter used the tower shield well, and would simply sling it on his back when he needed to be sneaky or needed to climb or jump something(he still had plate mail to contend with, but it was better than BOTH). You need to ready it before combat, but this is doable; he usually started combat by taking cover and using his move (which also allows him to draw/ready) to get into a good position on the battlefield. When he wanted to pour on the damage, he'd just drop the thing and go 2-handed with his waraxe.
I just realized something here. How does a regular shield work with spellcasting?
Assume the cleric is carrying a weapon in one hand and a steel shield in the other. Does this mean the cleric must drop the weapon to cast spells? Somatic components require one hand free, yes?
Yeah, as mentioned above, you need a buckler or light shield. You can outright use the buckler's hand to cast spells, but you lose the AC bonus for the round. Or, you could swap your weapon to your free hand when using a buckler OR light shield; it was suggested that this should be a move action, but everyone I know rules it as a free action.
Heavy and tower shields do not offer a free hand, so you have three options:
1) go unarmed or use a weapon that fits like a glove (spiked gauntlet, possibly brass knuckles, cestus, spiked armor, etc) or just make bash attacks with your shield a-la-Captain America
2) wield a weapon, but drop it when you cast (this really sucks)
3) tie a weapon cord to your weapon, drop the weapon when you cast, then retrieve it as a swift action (this only screws you up if you can cast spells as an immediate action or something, as you need to drop your weapon again, and can't pick it up until you get another swift action at the start of your next turn = no weapon use for AoOs, etc).
I just realized something here. How does a regular shield work with spellcasting?
Assume the cleric is carrying a weapon in one hand and a steel shield in the other. Does this mean the cleric must drop the weapon to cast spells? Somatic components require one hand free, yes?
Yeah, as mentioned above, you need a buckler or light shield. You can outright use the buckler's hand to cast spells, but you lose the AC bonus for the round. Or, you could swap your weapon to your free hand when using a buckler OR light shield; it was suggested that this should be a move action, but everyone I know rules it as a free action.
Heavy and tower shields do not offer a free hand, so you have three options:
1) go unarmed or use a weapon that fits like a glove (spiked gauntlet, possibly brass knuckles, cestus, spiked armor, etc) or just make bash attacks with your shield a-la-Captain America
2) wield a weapon, but drop it when you cast (this really sucks)
3) tie a weapon cord to your weapon, drop the weapon when you cast, then retrieve it as a swift action (this only screws you up if you can cast spells as an immediate action or something, as you need to drop your weapon again, and can't pick it up until you get another swift action at the start of your next turn = no weapon use for AoOs, etc).
I vote for custom-made brass knuck's with the cleric's holy symbol across the face of the fist- then you can present it just by raising your fist. When you can get it enchanted, give a property like the Ring of Arcane Signets from the APG. Then every time you punch someone, you leave your god's symbol emblazoned on their face (maybe for as many days as the damage of the punch?).
It's not Pathfinder but in the Complete Mage, there's a feat called Somatic Weaponry that allows you to cast even with both hands full as long as one hand is holding a weapon.
...it has a -10 armor check penalty. So you get -10 to stealth checks or -9 in case of masterwork.
So a cleric not having ranks in stealth with medium armor, tower shield and dex 12 has effective skill of -11.A battle is a -10 to hear. So the cleric with the tower shield walking around is louder than a battle and easy to hear through doors or around corners. So any enemy with hearing will know about something approaching.
In case a scout wants to scout ahead, he has to move so far ahed, that the cleric isnt louder. As it is -1 per 10 feet and the scout has something like +10 stealth, he should move 210 feets ahead of the clric, otherwise his sneaking will be irrelevant, because the cleric is louder.
Although I'd not use one of these death traps the -10 armor check penalty is not the same as a -10 dc to hear a battle. The effective skill of -11 is still a 1d20-11, giving you a average of a bout -0.05 which I admit is pretty easy to notice but not exactly the same.
Cleric's are proficient btw.
Sorry typo. Was supposed to be "aren't". Hulk smash Hulk's typing teacher!
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The tower shields, when all rules are applied, is never worth using.
Thats because it has a -10 armor check penalty. So you get -10 to stealth checks or -9 in case of masterwork.
So a cleric not having ranks in stealth with medium armor, tower shield and dex 12 has effective skill of -11.A battle is a -10 to hear. So the cleric with the tower shield walking around is louder than a battle and easy to hear through doors or around corners. So any enemy with hearing will know about something approaching.
In case a scout wants to scout ahead, he has to move so far ahed, that the cleric isnt louder. As it is -1 per 10 feet and the scout has something like +10 stealth, he should move 210 feets ahead of the clric, otherwise his sneaking will be irrelevant, because the cleric is louder.
sure they are, hang a tassle from the front of your tower shield and cast silence on it. Because you can give yourself full cover from your tassle by setting your shield, you can then cast safely while in the silence due to the emanation rules and cover.. :P
Also good if you have to cast in an antimagic field that is not centered on you.
From the PRD:
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
On Tower Shields:
Shield, Tower: This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see Combat). The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
On Silence:
School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, cleric 2
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object); Spell Resistance: yes; see text or no (object)
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.
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...The tower shields, when all rules are applied, is never worth using.
Thats because it has a -10 armor check penalty. So you get -10 to stealth checks or -9 in case of masterwork.
So a cleric not having ranks in stealth with medium armor, tower shield and dex 12 has effective skill of -11.A battle is a -10 to hear. So the cleric with the tower shield walking around is louder than a battle and easy to hear through doors or around corners. So any enemy with hearing will know about something approaching.
In case a scout wants to scout ahead, he has to move so far ahed, that the cleric isnt louder. As it is -1 per 10 feet and the scout has something like +10 stealth, he should move 210 feets ahead of the clric, otherwise his sneaking will be irrelevant, because the cleric is louder.
sure they are, hang a tassle from the front of your tower shield and cast silence on it. Because you can give yourself full cover from your tassle by setting your shield, you can then cast safely while in the silence due to the emanation rules and cover.. :P
Also good if you have to cast in an antimagic field that is not centered on you.
** spoiler omitted **
Hate to burst your bubble but the rules about total cover deal with burst, silence isn't a burst it's an emmenation, so you can't actually do that.
Hate to burst your bubble but the rules about total cover deal with burst, silence isn't a burst it's an emmenation, so you can't actually do that....The tower shields, when all rules are applied, is never worth using.
Thats because it has a -10 armor check penalty. So you get -10 to stealth checks or -9 in case of masterwork.
So a cleric not having ranks in stealth with medium armor, tower shield and dex 12 has effective skill of -11.A battle is a -10 to hear. So the cleric with the tower shield walking around is louder than a battle and easy to hear through doors or around corners. So any enemy with hearing will know about something approaching.
In case a scout wants to scout ahead, he has to move so far ahed, that the cleric isnt louder. As it is -1 per 10 feet and the scout has something like +10 stealth, he should move 210 feets ahead of the clric, otherwise his sneaking will be irrelevant, because the cleric is louder.
sure they are, hang a tassle from the front of your tower shield and cast silence on it. Because you can give yourself full cover from your tassle by setting your shield, you can then cast safely while in the silence due to the emanation rules and cover.. :P
Also good if you have to cast in an antimagic field that is not centered on you.
** spoiler omitted **
Emanations function like bursts. Specifically says so in the rules.
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
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Hate to burst your bubble but the rules about total cover deal with burst, silence isn't a burst it's an emmenation, so you can't actually do that.
From the PRD:
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
Emanations work just like bursts.
Hate to burst your bubble but the rules about total cover deal with burst, silence isn't a burst it's an emmenation, so you can't actually do that.
You are thinking of spreads.
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Hate to burst your bubble but the rules about total cover deal with burst, silence isn't a burst it's an emmenation, so you can't actually do that.You are thinking of spreads.
yup I was. Mostly I was just happy to add the pun with the burst your bubble line. Shows what you get for getting pun happy.
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Some emanation spells that (Per RAW) would be blocked by a tower shield set for total cover (which still leaves you a move action).
Zone of Truth
Dimensional Lock
Repulsion
Silence
Alarm (?)
Consecrate
Desecrate
all detect spells
Globe of Invulnerability
Repel Wood
Hallow
Unhallow
Antilife Shell
Magic circle spells
Gust of Wind
I am still not 100% how I would allow this in one of my games. Some I can see (Gust of Wind) some are just weird (alarm).
Most of those are just weird because most emanations are not physical effects.
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Most of those are just weird because most emanations are not physical effects.
Agreed, and when you look at burst spells it does not get any better:
Channeling
Waves of Exhaustion
Waves of Fatigue
Burning Hands
Cone of Cold
Fear
Crushing despair
Shout and Greater Shout
Color Spray
Prismatic Spray (?!)
undeath to death
Circle of Death (?!)
Sunburst
Bane
Bless
Transmute Metal to Wood (?!)
Chaos Hammer
Order's Wrath
Mage's Disjunction (save the magic items, loose the shield?)
This does mean though, if you have a tower shield, and you see some enemy casting, time to take cover!
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The other question is, if someone is directly behind you and you set for cover, do they also gain cover from that direction?
Bad graphic example:
C_______|FW
C = enemy caster with burst or emanation spell
_ = empty square
| = tower shield that the (F)ighter just set for total cover
W = Ally wizard 1 square behind fighter.
I think a correct fix would be that emanations do not stop at cover but continue through it to their maximum radius. Oh, I'm behind this here pillar so I'm not silenced! Sure, it may make sense for a wall to block Silence but then you realize that that also applies to pillars and it stops making any. The only thing that doesn't make sense on in that list is Gust of Wind and I didn't realize that was an emanation.
A couple of Thoughts:
Giving up a standard action to have cover against a spell isn't a bad idea -- but this won't help if the spell is a cylinder (which comes from the circle and downward -- meaning you'd have to hold the shield over your head). Especially since you only have cover from that one direction and lose your shield bonus while using it for cover.
Also consider that if you take the total cover action the wizard can simply land the spell on the other side of you so the edge you've choosen does you no good (basically landing the spell beside you instead of in front of you).
For the cones he might move first so that the edge you've choosen isn't the edge his hitting -- which means the shield is doing you no good again.
Basically put you choose one edge and hope that you got the right one and that the caster doesn't move and render your choice of edging useless.
Wouldn't using the tower shield to grant cover as a standart action, that has to be expended every round, make it impossible to cast other spells? Unless they are quickened, of course...
Plus this thing that Entropi mentioned upthread about having to use your standard action each round for cover.
Edited for spelling.
Basically put you choose one edge and hope that you got the right one and that the caster doesn't move and render your choice of edging useless.
Ready action?
I'm not sure how the rules would work, but if a player says "I wait until the caster casts a spell, and as he does so, drop my tower shield in the appropriate place" I'd allow it as a DM, provided they could make the Spellcraft check to ID the casting.|
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I think that using it for total cover against an alarm would depend on how the alarm was created. If it is just looking for any movement bigger than a rat, obviously its going to go off when the big blank slate is advancing. If its trigger is an elf, then having the elf behind a tower shield may block its line of effect to determine what he is.
In a more off topic comment, I did have a group of players who were trying to figure out how to sneak across a bridge to a goblin fort, both without the being pelted by arrows from its watch tower and without having one of the little buggers come out and cut the bridge's supports while they were on it.
They finally came up with a wiley coyote type plan to use some paints they had to draw a life sized picture of a goblin with a bridge colored background on the front of of a tower shield and have the fighter cross the bridge with it in front of him to make sure that at least none of the goblins could cut it before the rest were over. The original plan involved using minor image to give goblin some appearance of movement, but when they realized none of them could cast the spell that was discarded in place of just 'winging it'.
The real downfall came because the party both underestimated the goblins intelligence(Obviously they will be confused seeing a bouncing goblin-ish figure moving along the bridge) and overestimated it(There is a watch tower! They must have guards watching, rather than two drunken goblins playing cards who would require a very unstealthy character wielding equipment designed to make him even more incredibly unstealthy to notice.)
Also overestimated, a goblins need to build a rope bridge capable of supporting a very large man, in full plate, carrying very heavy things. About half way across the one of the other characters messaged the fighter that two goblins had popped up their heads and were looking at him, so he decided to run for it instead of giving them time to wonder(and take it slow and easy to notice the painfully creaking bridge). A broken board and failed reflex save later he was abandoning the lovingly painted shield to have any chance of swimming out while the rest of the party tried to reformulate their plan.
I vote for custom-made brass knuck's with the cleric's holy symbol across the face of the fist- then you can present it just by raising your fist. When you can get it enchanted, give a property like the Ring of Arcane Signets from the APG. Then every time you punch someone, you leave your god's symbol emblazoned on their face (maybe for as many days as the damage of the punch?).
I like it!
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I vote for custom-made brass knuck's with the cleric's holy symbol across the face of the fist- then you can present it just by raising your fist. When you can get it enchanted, give a property like the Ring of Arcane Signets from the APG. Then every time you punch someone, you leave your god's symbol emblazoned on their face (maybe for as many days as the damage of the punch?).I like it!
I'm thinking of a similar concept but I prefer and am going with a pair of masterwork spiked gauntlets, one made of mithril, the other of cold iron. That way you can switch to whichever is more appropriate at any given time depending on the DR of your opponent. The character is also an oracle, so I'd rather not use the holy symbol idea (though I really like it).
What I would like to do though is give the set a name like "Love and Hate" or "Peas and Carrots". Obviously those are terrible though, so any suggestions or ideas are more than welcome.
I'm thinking of a similar concept but I prefer and am going with a pair of masterwork spiked gauntlets, one made of mithril, the other of cold iron. That way you can switch to whichever is more appropriate at any given time depending on the DR of your opponent. The character is also an oracle, so I'd rather not use the holy symbol idea (though I really like it).What I would like to do though is give the set a name like "Love and Hate" or "Peas and Carrots". Obviously those are terrible though, so any suggestions or ideas are more than welcome.
Franks & Beans
Hugs & KissesCHAR & Squirtle!
Doom & Despair
Yes, these are terrible too. What kind of Oracle?
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Do you think it's worth it anyway to have it?The cleric player wants to do it more for style than for anything. (it's also a pretty weak cleric who's far better at his spellcasting than anything resembling physical combat)
It's only two points better than heavy steel shield and one point better than a +1 heavy steel shield (which the cleric already has).
B
Best healer I have ever played used a tower shield. Just shy of sundering the shield you're an unstoppable healing machine. Go any where in combat plop own and heal from cover,and yes you can touch allies from cover unless they changed that in path finder.