If you have multiple opponents then how was the encounter wrecked?
The witch puts one to sleep, and someone kicks him and tells him to get back up.
He can't be subject to it again so that is a solution.
And Coup de graces provoke an AoO so why is nobody stabbing the rogue in the face if he is doing coup de graces in mid combat?
Captain Marsh wrote: So first...I really hate the tone of the response. The "shut up and sit down" quality of the message boards here is sometimes really a drag. Now...here's my argument, in all civility...
A) I'm not missing your points, I just disagree, and I think my argument is better. I have DM'd Pathfinder since its release and have DM'd D&D in all of it iterations. In every case, there have been unbalanced spells and powers that needed to be mopped up after release.
It doesn't help to just say "broken stuff happens" and the game sometimes doesn't work and isn't fun. What makes the game better is to provide feedback and player experiences from actual game-play so that the rules can be tweaked.
B) If you've never had spellcasters use single-target effects at early stages of combat and battles, then I'm baffled by what game you're playing.
C) The Save or Die thing is in fact a perennial problem in Pathfinder and d20/3.0/3.5, one we've all struggled with for years. In this case, Slumber, it's a SOD power that can be used with no Vancian limitations and no limit on Hit Dice power for the target.
So when you combine those factors - SOD, infinite uses, no HD limits -- it's worth revisiting.
D) It's noteworthy that Sleep, a limited use spell, HAS a HD limitation. And casting Sleep triggers an AOO, while Slumber hex does not. So...why would the rules take a really balanced spell and suddenly make it completely unfettered like that?
E) Two thirds of monster types in the game are NOT immune to this hex. In fact, a lot of fairly tough CR6-10 creatures are REALLY vulnterable to this spell, with a 50% chance or greater of falling to it.
And if you happen on a given night to be running a dungeon that is flatly vulnerable to a broken spell like this (raiding a place with human villains, or orcs, or whatever...) you're just toast.
It's not enough to say that maybe you'll get lucky and design a dungeon or adventure where a broken spell isn't as broken...and it's not my style to design dungeons...
A. We will have to continue to disagree about it being unbalanced, because I do not find it unbalanced.
B. Casters I DM tend to use AoE battlefield control, not SoD. I wish upon a star for a SoD caster because they are far easier to deal with.
C. It is not infinite uses versus any target its Finite versus any single target with infinite targets available at a standard action 30ft range cost. That is a pretty nasty restriction till about level 5 when flight comes into play. To use the ability you have to be married to your local meat shield AND he has to act in such a way as to protect the witch while they are getting danger close.
D. Sleep ends up with a longer range (Medium), can hit multiple targets and lasts for mins/level not rounds/level.
E. 35% != 66%
Human villains are not anymore vulnerable than other class based ones. There a quite a few classes with strong will saves.
Designing dungeons isn't about luck, its about designing dungeons. If you know your party has access to Will Based save or Dies (pretty much every party) and they like using them, AND you want an encounter to be challenging you MUST take that into account during the design process. There is nothing wrong with the players getting a hand waive victory either, so what if they crumble a single encounter worth of stuff, I am the DM I control a whole world of stuff, a good portion of which laughs at Slumber (su)
Construct, Dragon, Ooze, Plant, Undead, are outright immune because of creature type thats 5/13 creature types in the game. Any creature with the Mindless tag is immune (this could be argued but I think its generally accepted but depends on how you interpret the phrase as per the sleep spell). Furthermore 12/19 PC classes offer good will save progression, some that do not such as Barbarian/fighter (via bonus feats) have access to will save enhancement. In addition elves are immune because you know elves. Just eyeballing that I am more than comfortable saying that 35% of the monsters in the game will bounce sleep by virtue of existence, and I would argue another goodly portion will end up with a 50/50 shot of bouncing it on a will save. Remember its not as simple to boost hex DCs as it is to boost spell DCs and requires the DM to allow Ability Focus to work on Hexes, I do personally, because if a character wants to focus on night nighting people and they spend the resources they should be good at it.
Regards,
DRS
wraithstrike wrote: If you have multiple opponents then how was the encounter wrecked?
The witch puts one to sleep, and someone kicks him and tells him to get back up.
He can't be subject to it again so that is a solution.
And Coup de graces provoke an AoO so why is nobody stabbing the rogue in the face if he is doing coup de graces in mid combat?
The Witch is generally taking out one different opponent per round.
The kick him awake strategy means some other opponent is spending their next round not attacking. The woken person will then be prone with probably dropped weapons and will take AoOs to get up and again to grab their weapon so a round of provoking to get where they started. So the witch has taken out two opponents from the action economy as the benefit of her countered ability and caused one to provoke AoOs.
Very strong against a group of not high will save physical combat opponents.
DRS3 -
I do think one place where we really part ways is that I like rules that allow me to create a world and a table experience where a party has a balanced chance to win.
Where the world 'exists,' in other worlds, and where so long as I balance it properly and get the CR more or less right, the powers and abilities of the players will give them a competitive but risky shot at surviving and prospering.
I don't EVER design my adventures to favor (or thwart) particular classes or abilities that I know my players bring to the table. I create fun, balanced, complicated encounters, that are geared to particular CR levels.
(Sometimes I will say, in advance, this is a campaign where you'll need a cleric, or a front-line fighter, or a rogue.)
In this case, PCs were going into funky, complex terrains, battling interesting mixes of monsters where some dramatic things were possible.
Rather than doing interesting things, or coming up with fun, cinematic solutions, this one unbalanced power just twigged the encounters. Period.
It wasn't fun, it wasn't exciting, it wasn't clever. (It was, however, perfectly legal, and I felt creepy about saying, "Dude, I know that's your superpower, but it's killing the night...")
A question: Do you guys who are panning the idea that hex slumber is broken think there are any broken, overpowered spells and powers in PF?
Or do you think once it's published, it's canon and we should all just sort of live with it?
Marsh
this has really drifted from a rules question to a gripe about the power level of something
the witch is a far more limited a caster due to the restricted list, and while hexes are all day rather than 3+mod like domain/school powers, even IF they were restricted to 3+mod...frankly that's quite enough to throw at poorly designed encounters all day long anyway
so your argument that unlimited targets one try a day is too much is really quite moot on multiple points
the witch could just as easily enlarge/fortune the barb
the wizard could do any number of billion things with great DCs
magus nova...etc etc
there's TONS of quick kill things, it's just how the game IS
part of that restricted list is FAR fewer defense options, if you want cackle dependant evil eye or misfortune to fall off...harass the witch
Captain Marsh wrote: . . .
I do think one place where we really part ways is that I like rules that allow me to create a world and a table experience where a party has a balanced chance to win.
Where the world 'exists,' in other worlds, and where so long as I balance it properly and get the CR more or less right, the powers and abilities of the players will give them a competitive but risky shot at surviving and prospering.
I've heard it admitted that the CR system is a bit unreliable at times... but just depending on CR means you are ignoring the rock-paper-scissors element of the game. Evokers are weak against monsters with spell resistance and energy resistance. Casters in general have bad reflex saves and hit points. Martial types tend to have bad will saves. Classes with at will abilities work longer than limited per day abilities, so more encounters favor some classes while fewer favor others.
Some creatures won't use tactics. Some will. Take that into consideration.
Captain Marsh wrote: I don't EVER design my adventures to favor (or thwart) particular classes or abilities that I know my players bring to the table. I create fun, balanced, complicated encounters, that are geared to particular CR levels.
(Sometimes I will say, in advance, this is a campaign where you'll need a cleric, or a front-line fighter, or a rogue.)
So you never deliberately give them an opportunity to shine. Got it. :)
I have general and/or random encounters that may or may not play to their strengths. But I also have other deliberate encounters. If they've done the homework, they can weigh a fight in their favor. Conversely, if they've upset the wrong people, enemies will target their weakness.
Captain Marsh wrote: In this case, PCs were going into funky, complex terrains, battling interesting mixes of monsters where some dramatic things were possible.
Rather than doing interesting things, or coming up with fun, cinematic solutions, this one unbalanced power just twigged the encounters. Period.
Again, everything has a weakness. If a squishy character is closing within 30' of a monster, he should be a target. It only gets on chance a day versus a particular target, so if they save, the hex does nothing. If you use it against something and you don't know it's immune, that's a completely wasted action.
Captain Marsh wrote: . . .
A question: Do you guys who are panning the idea that hex slumber is broken think there are any broken, overpowered spells and powers in PF?
Or do you think once it's published, it's canon and we should all just sort of live with it? . . . .
There are broken spells and broken combinations, but I agree with the others that slumber is not one of those.
On another note, scar + fortune + cackle and pick a spot out of range, or possibly invisible... or both.
have you ever actually DM'd a game where this power was used?
-marsh
Captain Marsh wrote: DRS3 -
I do think one place where we really part ways is that I like rules that allow me to create a world and a table experience where a party has a balanced chance to win.
Where the world 'exists,' in other worlds, and where so long as I balance it properly and get the CR more or less right, the powers and abilities of the players will give them a competitive but risky shot at surviving and prospering.
I don't EVER design my adventures to favor (or thwart) particular classes or abilities that I know my players bring to the table. I create fun, balanced, complicated encounters, that are geared to particular CR levels.
(Sometimes I will say, in advance, this is a campaign where you'll need a cleric, or a front-line fighter, or a rogue.)
In this case, PCs were going into funky, complex terrains, battling interesting mixes of monsters where some dramatic things were possible.
Rather than doing interesting things, or coming up with fun, cinematic solutions, this one unbalanced power just twigged the encounters. Period.
It wasn't fun, it wasn't exciting, it wasn't clever. (It was, however, perfectly legal, and I felt creepy about saying, "Dude, I know that's your superpower, but it's killing the night...")
A question: Do you guys who are panning the idea that hex slumber is broken think there are any broken, overpowered spells and powers in PF?
Or do you think once it's published, it's canon and we should all just sort of live with it?
Marsh
There is no such thing as a balanced encounter if you don't take what your PCs can do into account. It is not possible. You will have to counter FOOs (First order optimal strategies) or your encounters will fall victim to them. That means if you have pouncing pcs / eids / barbs etc, you will have to plan for them to use that ability. This can be accomplished by difficult terrain, obstacles, or mitigated by DR and fast healing but, if the encounter is designed to put its weaknesses against your PCs strengths it will be short and it will be brutal. Your set piece cinematic encounters have to be made to account for that and you may have to alter them on the fly. If you choose not to do this then you shouldn't blame the PCs HAVES you should blame your HAVE NOTS.
Being a DM isn't about being a screen director, way too much inherent randomness in the system for that (Though that too can be adjusted if you base everything on 2d10 rolls instead of 1d20, but that is a whole separate issue), it is about probabilities and understanding that if simplistic tactics continue to be rewarded they will continue to be used. There is a reason why the majority of assaults with knives happen to people who are unarmed and are struck from behind, because it works.
Of course there are broken and overpowered spells and abilities, however, the daily virtual ink that is spilled about the Slumber hex, an ability with large disadvantages, (Single Target Short Range), that has so many hard and soft counters to it just strikes me as crazy stupid.
Regards,
DRS
Captain Marsh wrote: have you ever actually DM'd a game where this power was used?
-marsh
DM'ed, no. Played, yes. I played an elven witch. No archetypes with a fox familiar and a strength patron. I played him from level 2 to 5. We wound up fighting a fair amount of undead.
Edit: Typically when I run, which is a large chunk of time with my group, they are less interested in casters. When someone wants to play a caster, they typically use a spontaneous caster.
Oh. And once I got to play Skulls and Shackles. I played an undine bard and a buddy played a half orc scarred witch doctor. He played him like a gish. He avoided using slumber for role play reasons. Pain is a teacher. The unconscious aren't learning anything. Once or twice when he did use slumber, I was also using obscuring mist so they wouldn't necessarily notice someone dropped immediately. We would also try to divide enemies using terrain and obstacles.
DRS3-
Yeah, I disagree. I'm not suggesting that I design encounters blindly. Of course I layer in effects designed to prevent thinks like the proverbial 1 BBEG easy topple encounter.
And when I play with a skilled, power-gamey group, I tweak the CR level upward and add in additional challenges (more three dimensional conflict spaces, etc.)
But once I think about the rules and fold in things that have an internal logic and consistency, I get absolutely no fun from blonking an encounter with big cheats on my side.
I also like being surprised by my players. Unlike some DMs, I require rule-loyal PCs, but I don't do pre-audits.
But I don't think even with your philosophical approach, this spell. works. Your assessment of it just strikes me as weird.
Consider this factual description.
1. It's a never-ending ammo clip. 2. It's apparently a silent supernatural ability and can be thrown without cluing enemies that the PC is in fact a spellcaster. 3. It's not subject to counterspells. 4. It doesn't trigger an AOO. 5. It's not limited by Hit Dice, unlike its Sleep counterpart. 6. It's a SOD spell that will always scale relatively high on its Will save. 7. There is a significant list of VERY powerful monsters, high CR, that are highly vulnerable to this spell. 8. The 30' foot automatic hit range increment is actually very generous, compared to comparably powerful spells that require either a touch or ranged touch attack.
That's a pretty long list of boffo attributes for one magical effect which CAN BE GAINED AT FIRST LEVEL.
Bottom line? That's just not the same as buffing a barb or using a clever area of effect spell.
--Marsh
ok go ahead and stick your head in the sand and pretend countless other things that END entire encounters and harp on about a fragile class using a single target ability from melee squash range.
You drastically over-focus on the upsides by virtually ignoring the risks and what you lose to get it.
Quote: A question: Do you guys who are panning the idea that hex slumber is broken think there are any broken, overpowered spells and powers in PF
Or do you think once it's published, it's canon and we should all just sort of live with it?
Marsh
I think broken and OP are subjective terms. What is ok for one table is not ok for another, and sleep is nor more or less annoying than any other SoD/SoS. I also think a GM should be willing to account for his group if he expects a certain outcome. That does not make anyone a lesser GM, but everything is not going to fit every table so make adjustments.
As an example of how I GM:
I don't care how most of my non-boss fights go so I dont alter them too much. However for any fight I want to be difficult I make adjustments. That does not mean I make the monsters immune but I do give them a decent chance to not steamroll the encounter. I tend to get optimisers so if I ran stock monsters, in difficult fights as they were, it would be way too easy.
Captain Marsh wrote: DRS3-
Yeah, I disagree. I'm not suggesting that I design encounters blindly. Of course I layer in effects designed to prevent thinks like the proverbial 1 BBEG easy topple encounter.
And when I play with a skilled, power-gamey group, I tweak the CR level upward and add in additional challenges (more three dimensional conflict spaces, etc.)
But once I think about the rules and fold in things that have an internal logic and consistency, I get absolutely no fun from blonking an encounter with big cheats on my side.
I also like being surprised by my players. Unlike some DMs, I require rule-loyal PCs, but I don't do pre-audits.
But I don't think even with your philosophical approach, this spell. works. Your assessment of it just strikes me as weird.
Consider this factual description.
1. It's a never-ending ammo clip. 2. It's apparently a silent supernatural ability and can be thrown without cluing enemies that the PC is in fact a spellcaster. 3. It's not subject to counterspells. 4. It doesn't trigger an AOO. 5. It's not limited by Hit Dice, unlike its Sleep counterpart. 6. It's a SOD spell that will always scale relatively high on its Will save. 7. There is a significant list of VERY powerful monsters, high CR, that are highly vulnerable to this spell. 8. The 30' foot automatic hit range increment is actually very generous, compared to comparably powerful spells that require either a touch or ranged touch attack.
That's a pretty long list of boffo attributes for one magical effect which CAN BE GAINED AT FIRST LEVEL.
Bottom line? That's just not the same as buffing a barb or using a clever area of effect spell.
1. False, it is a black powder musket with one lead ball for every creature that dares to get withing 30ft that doesn't have the correct armor plating (immunity) or cover (decent will save).
2. True, addendum, enemies that save against an ability (ex/su/sp) know they are being attacked. Weather they can figure out the source depends on relevant skills and intelligence. Though the flying cackling madwoman just might pique their interest.
3. True, Addendum, counter spelling is horrible tactics. Why? Reactive not active. Id rather plant the caster then worry about if I can counter what he has coming up next.
4. True. Commentary: Good thing too because 30 ft range means you have to be close.
5. True, Comparison: But it doesn't ever increase in range or start with 100 ft range, doesn't effect multiple creatures, and lasts one tenth the time.
6. True, Commentary: But has no feats unlike spells to increase the DC unless DM rules Ability Focus is player eligible.
7. True, there is also a fair list of monsters at all levels that are outright immune to it. Can be removed by ANYONE who has spends a standard action to Aid Another. (Or a smart alec caster who keeps merciful Ray of Frost (aka the cold water wakeup spell) prepped for just such an occasion.
8. Disagree, that is a move action for a goodly chunk of creatures, the range actually decreases when you are flying unless you are DIRECTLY over your enemy but, that may be getting into too much maths for most tables. Flying over an enemies head is a very good way to draw attention to yourself.
That's a pretty long list of disadvantages for one magical effect which CAN BE GAINED AT FIRST LEVEL. (Why take it at first though at that level its a time out not a SoD.)
Bottom line using an AOE even something stupid like Rime Spell Frost Fall can screw over many times the creatures that Slumber can in one action, give me my move action to get the hell out of dodge, and make sure my melee fighters can dominate the encounter while I watch bemused from the sidelines because you know longer range. There is a VERY small window where slumber is super good after that its mediocre and something you use during the mop up phase of an encounter.
Captain Marsh wrote: FWIW, the encounter that was most completely disrupted involved eight bugbears (including a ringleader), a dire bar, a girallon, and a giant stag beetle. Thats an encounter I can't credit sleep ruining faster than AoE Battlefield controls but how would I change it?
Turn 4 of the 8 bugbears into skeletal bugbear slingers, commanded by the new ringlead who is a cleric not a ftr/war etc. Giant stag beetle should already be immune. If Ringleader is not high enough to create undead on his own BONUS ADVENTURE HOOK!! Suddenly we have an ecounter with 5 immune to sleep creatures, lead by one high will save creature. Who can not only use them to act as ranged attackers (+4 dex is good for ranged attacks) but, can also use them to wake up other sleeped creatures either with ranged sling attack (prone does give ac bonus) or a good ole claw to the face if you rule that skels wouldnt understand subdual damage.
Or make the bugbear a necromancer using Command Undead they get for free and merciful ray of frost to wake up sleeping allies from range, and that works nicely with the skels because they are immune to subdual damage so he could be throwing around merciful fireballs with his skeletal allies crammed right up to the group YAY!
====
Even if the witch curb stomps it so what. If you follow the 60/30/10 rule it goes into the 60 column.
Somewhat casual aside: 60/30/10 rule is
60% of encounters should be a cakewalk, barely use any resources and could even be hand waived as a curb stomp battle i.e. You spot four goblins creeping up on your camp, a few seconds later you are wiping the green bile from your swords and grumbling at the rude interruption.
30% of encounters should be challenging. The party should walk away saying "That was tougher than I expected"
10% of encounters should be humbling. "Whose bright idea was it to try and tackle the dragon anyway?"
And of course not all of these need to be in combat. I had one group that was so optimized for combat encounters they managed to flub every social encounter they entered into, which made the campaign FAR more difficult than any combats I had sketched out.
Regards,
DRS
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Chris P. Bacon wrote: If slumber is becoming a problem, a quick fix is to allow the creature a new save every round. You can also add some minor henchmen who can go and kick the big bad to wake him up - the hex only works once per day.
Also, evil eye doesn't work as mentioned above: the penalty only applies to ONE type of roll at a time. It's still very useful, though, especially to nuke an opponent's saves to soften them up for Slumber or Agony.
It won't matter if it gets a new save next round because someone already coup de graced it.
Evil eye applies to every roll whenever you use it. So if you appky it to attack rolls the first time and saves the 2nd time then you get a penalty to attack rolls and saves.
Captain Marsh wrote:
In this case, PCs were going into funky, complex terrains, battling interesting mixes of monsters where some dramatic things were possible.
Rather than doing interesting things, or coming up with fun, cinematic solutions, this one unbalanced power just twigged the encounters. Period.
It wasn't fun, it wasn't exciting, it wasn't clever. (It was, however, perfectly legal, and I felt creepy about saying, "Dude, I know that's your superpower, but it's killing the night...")
I had a similar situation. At level 5 or 6 a PC in my Reign of Winter Game made a replacement character, a hexblade magus who uses witch hexes. First time any of us had seen the slumber hex in action.
There were a ton of strong martial foes winter wolves, ice trolls, troll hound, wikiwak bugbear, etc. who were vulnerable to a will save. He had a high int and was dropping things left and right just by pointing in multiple encounters which was changing the dynamics of the encounters in an unfun way and I saw it was going to continue like that.
I talked to him and mentioned my concern and he volunteered to change it to a different hex. He's nasty effective at magically enhancing his sword fighting and can do massive damage on a melee full attack but that is fun in the encounter while the constant SoD was not.
Dropping it was better for our group and the combat rhythms I wanted.
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