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I was planning on a big bad troll barbarian as a near futur challenge and then the intimidate issue came to my mind.
Is it ok to intimidate a player (the shaken effect at least) because i don't feel at ease with the idea.
Unless it is a strong magical effect like a charm or compulsion i always let the player himself decide if his character fear something or not and then having him facing the outcome!
The shaken effect is RAW of intimidation. So go for it make the fighter cry.
Mr. Fishy has trouble with typing. That was raw as in uncooked meat. Damn cap lock.
Make the fighter wet himself if he rolls low.
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Which is different from RAI, Rules as Intended(and causes more controversy than RAW).
Anway, I'd go for it. Make it scary, it's a troll for Pelor's sake! This is a creature that can take a beating and not care! The least a charater can be is shaken. Now, for more experienced adventurers, trolls aren't such a big deal, and they are thus less afraid of them.
Perhaps give your make the DC to Intimidate the players go up by 2 if they knew about the troll and came prepared(fire, alchemist or otherwise, acid, etc)?
So how does intimidate work, exactly? I've never really been able to figure that out. Is it roll intimidate => will save DC = intimidate check result? Or is it opposed skill rolls or is there a specific DC that needs to be hit?
In order to intimidate someone/thing, you must make an Intimidate check against a set DC.
The DC is: 10 + character level/Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom Modifier.
I know because I tried to be an intimidating halfling over the weekend, which would have worked if the DM hadn't said it was a DC 60+ because the wizard had a dragon to back him up. Never mind that I jumped up on to the dragon's neck to attack him.
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Can you Intimidate a character with Aura of Courage?
Er...definitions are needed. Aura of Courage makes them immune to fear effects. You couldn't demoralize a paladin with Aura of Courage, as that is a fear effect. Intimidation used as an alternative to Diplomacy, on the other hand...is really in the eyes of the DM. If my party was trying to Intimidate a paladin with Aura of Courage, I would personally have it auto-fail. the paladin would skip right past the whole "aquiesce to the scary person's demands" phase and go right into the "You are a jerk and I hate you" phase. :)
Fear
Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.
Shaken : Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).
Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.
Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause your opponents to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten opponents in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you.
So the paladin is immune to this ability because it causes the shaken condition, which is a fear effect.
As to using it for ad hoc diplomacy on a paladin
Intimidate: You can use this skill to frighten your opponents or to get them to act in a way that benefits you. This skill includes verbal threats and displays of prowess.
So no dice. Threaten mr pally all you want, you're just going to get a celestial hoof up the rear.
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As to using it for ad hoc diplomacy on a paladin
Intimidate: You can use this skill to frighten your opponents or to get them to act in a way that benefits you. This skill includes verbal threats and displays of prowess.
So no dice. Threaten mr pally all you want, you're just going to get a celestial hoof up the rear.
While I agree that the text indicates that paladins should be unaffected by intimidation by the spirit of the rules, using intimidate in a manner other than demoralization is not technically listed as a fear effect.
While I would personally have a paladin ignore it, I can't say a DM couldn't choose to have it effect a paladin according to the rules as written.
Such as when I'm trying to convince the computer to generate a proper import file...
::shakes fist at computer::
It's rejecting my emails again, too. Unless you just "unfriended" me on email. :.(
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It's rejecting my emails again, too. Unless you just "unfriended" me on email. :.(Such as when I'm trying to convince the computer to generate a proper import file...
::shakes fist at computer::
No, I don't pull that kinda stuff. I'll try to check out what's up tonight. Still at work. Bleagh.
edit: in a quick check, my isp seems fine, the email account looks good, the forwarding is correct, though I haven't rec'd anything new in the last two hours...I'm not sure what's up.
While I agree that the text indicates that paladins should be unaffected by intimidation by the spirit of the rules, using intimidate in a manner other than demoralization is not technically listed as a fear effect.
While I would personally have a paladin ignore it, I can't say a DM couldn't choose to have it effect a paladin according to the rules as written.
A paladin is not merely immune to fear EFFECTS. They are immune to fear itself.
Aura of Courage (Su): At 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions only while the paladin is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.
Intimidate is an attempt to frighten the paladin into doing what you what. I think its an enormous leap to make a distinction between frightening and fear, since frightening isn't its own effect.
ah, if that is the actual text of the ability, then yes, you are correct. I was under the impression the text of the ability said they were immune to fear effects.
A paladin is not merely immune to fear EFFECTS. They are immune to fear itself.
Yup. FDR would be so proud...
No, I don't pull that kinda stuff. I'll try to check out what's up tonight. Still at work. Bleagh.
Yeah, I didn't figure you for the type. ;)
I'm at work, too -- I'll try and check back what got rejected and resend, if it's something you might be interested in vs. a generic homebrew update.OT:
Interested?
In 3.5 you specifically could not intimidate creatures who were immune to fear. Modifiers against fear saves were also included in the DC to influence attitude. In PF, either by error or intent, both clauses were omitted.
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OT:** spoiler omitted **
Sure, I'm interested. I think it might be better go with the Paladin skeleton, however. Adding cantrips as an ability isn't a big departure from there - they're always listed separately in the special abilities anyway - and creating Martial Arcana (or something) might be cool too.
I tried to think of the things I wanted a warrior that used magic to allow him to meet martial situations from an advantage might work. I tried to turn those basic concepts into 3 tiered sets of powers. I came up with weapon enhancement, shielding, telekintetic combat maneuvers and movement. It seems another desired ability is channeling energy damage or spells through weapon attacks. I assigned these as abilities more like smites and lay on hands to avoid a lot of spells, but allow an arcane feel.
another suggestion I liked was to extend the arcane warrior's spell casting to 6th or 9th level, but past a certain level those slots are metamagic only - no higher level spells, but plenty of slots for extended or stilled or quickened spells.
I guess I might be alone on this, but I kind of saw demoralize as making the other character feel depressed and not necessarily always afraid. :/ Like telling them that they suck or that their attempts are useless. It's not really scary, but it can still be demoralizing. Also, the fact that Charisma is the main skill made me feel justified in my mind. [The fact that fear causes shaken doesn't mean that shaken must always be caused by fear; that reasoning is inductive]
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Hey... with all this intimidating in mind might I recommend a fighter getting his bravery bonus applied to the dc to intimidate him (normally 10+wis mod+level) as a house rule? I mean it just feels like a minor oversight concerning the interaction of bravery and intimdate. But yeah go ahead and use the demoralization aspect of intimidate on players... hell pick up on the intimidate combat feats for your troll and let it kick a lot of ass.