I'm of the opinion it should work similiarly to the monk's flurry of blows. The magus should get full BAB while full attacking, -2 and allowed to cast a standard action (or less) spell with a concentration check.
It holds up from what I've played with it in combat mock ups.
I'm of the opinion it should work similiarly to the monk's flurry of blows. The magus should get full BAB while full attacking, -2 and allowed to cast a standard action (or less) spell with a concentration check.
It holds up from what I've played with it in combat mock ups.
I like.
I'm of the opinion it should work similiarly to the monk's flurry of blows. The magus should get full BAB while full attacking, -2 and allowed to cast a standard action (or less) spell with a concentration check.
It holds up from what I've played with it in combat mock ups.
+1 for sure I liked it as soon as I heard it
What about at high levels? Would you eventually lose the penalty like with flurry? I haven't done the math, but that might be abuse-worthy if you combine it with dropping a lvl-6 spell for arcane accuracy. That's equal to a fighter's WF+GWF+weapon training, not to mention the fact that you can already have WF+GWF+arcane weapon.
I've been thinking that dropping the penalty to attacks to -2, and allowing STR (or DEX with Weapon Finesse) to add to concentration checks would be a good fix. The fluff behind this is that the Magus' martial skill allows him to fend off an enemy better, thus making it easier to cast defensively. It also has the advantage of being a way to fluff your fighting improving your magic, rather than everything using magic to improve fighting.
What about at high levels? Would you eventually lose the penalty like with flurry?
you never lose the flurry penalty but the bonus outstrips your normal BAB to +18 at 20th level which in this case would give you 4 attacks
getting multiple attacks earlier would certainty make the class feel more meleeish and like flurry the benefit only applies while flurrying so you'd want to be doing spell combat as often as possible showcasing the main class feature all the time
Flurry BAB = Monk Level -2
Magus Spell Combat progression would look like this
BAB Starting at
level 2 +0
level 3 +1
level 4 +2
Level 5 +3
Level 6 +4
Level 7 +5
level 8 +6/+1
level 9 +7/+2
level 10 +8/+3
level 11 +9/+4
level 12 +10/+5
level 13 +11/+6/+1
level 14 +12/+7+/2
level 15 +13/+8/+3
level 16 +14/+9/+4
level 17 +15/+10/+5
level 18 +16/+11/+6/+2
level 19 +17/+12/+7/+3
level 20 +18/+13/+8/+4
Its almost as good as being a full BAB class BUT you only get the benefit when performing spell combat
What about at high levels? Would you eventually lose the penalty like with flurry?you never lose the flurry penalty but the bonus outstrips your normal BAB to +18 at 20th level which in this case would give you 4 attacks
getting multiple attacks earlier would certainty make the class feel more meleeish and like flurry the benefit only applies while flurrying so you'd want to be doing spell combat as often as possible showcasing the main class feature all the time
Flurry BAB = Monk Level -2
D'oh! Of course you're right, I relapsed to 3.5 for a bit.
Well, this seems like a pretty decent idea, then. :)
I'm still partial to my fix, but then- it was my idea. :P
I'm still partial to my fix, but then- it was my idea. :P
hehehe and it wasen't a bad idea although +STR mod to concentration checks is actually a bit strong
means at level 2 with an 18INT 18STR (yes its a minmax but its possible)
You have concentration check of +4int, +4str, +4combat casting, +2 level, +2 trait for a grand total of +16 at 2nd level
which means you can't fail casting can trips and 90% on level 1 spells
at level 12 with no other magic gear your mod is +26 and you can't fail casting level 6 spells
which while nice and would be fun to play is not what I think they had in mind.
I'm still partial to my fix, but then- it was my idea. :P
hehehe and it wasen't a bad idea although +STR mod to concentration checks is actually a bit strong
means at level 2 with an 18INT 18STR (yes its a minmax but its possible)
You have concentration check of +4int, +4str, +4combat casting, +2 level, +2 trait for a grand total of +16 at 2nd level
which means you can't fail casting can trips and 90% on level 1 spells
at level 12 with no other magic gear your mod is +26 and you can't fail casting level 6 spells
which while nice and would be fun to play is not what I think they had in mind.
So you drop a trait, a feat, and min/max out the yin-yang to get good early at something you'll never fail at high levels with this version anyways. I saw that coming, I just don't have a problem with it.
I see this as an alternative to people saying that Combat Casting should be an auto feat, and it helps with complaints about the MAD by creating a powerful synergy.
Adding a secondary ability bonus to concentration isn't bad, but I propose that it be constitution:
- Constitution has a 3.5 history of being the concentration score, and fits with it.
- Constitution is already an important score for all magi, while some may want to go the dexterity and some the strength route when it comes to offense.
I'm still partial to my fix, but then- it was my idea. :P
hehehe and it wasen't a bad idea although +STR mod to concentration checks is actually a bit strong
means at level 2 with an 18INT 18STR (yes its a minmax but its possible)
No, it's not possible with the core rules unless rolling, and in that case it's still EXTREMELY unlikely. Minmaxing is about making optimal choices, not about rolling well; in that case you could just say that he rolled 20 on the concentration check and get it over with. Less than 6% of all characters will roll both an 18 and a 16.
In point buy, supposing neutral Dex and and Con and 7(!) in wis and cha, it's on a 28 point buy, when 15 is the RAW standard and 20 is the one used for organized play.
I see this as an alternative to people saying that Combat Casting should be an auto feat, and it helps with complaints about the MAD by creating a powerful synergy.
the best way to deal with that is to give combat casting as bonus feat at level 1 , it makes perfect sense for the class to have it.
Adding a secondary ability bonus to concentration isn't bad, but I propose that it be constitution:
- Constitution has a 3.5 history of being the concentration score, and fits with it.
- Constitution is already an important score for all magi, while some may want to go the dexterity and some the strength route when it comes to offense.I'm still partial to my fix, but then- it was my idea. :P
hehehe and it wasen't a bad idea although +STR mod to concentration checks is actually a bit strong
means at level 2 with an 18INT 18STR (yes its a minmax but its possible)
No, it's not possible with the core rules unless rolling, and in that case it's still EXTREMELY unlikely. Minmaxing is about making optimal choices, not about rolling well; in that case you could just say that he rolled 20 on the concentration check and get it over with. Less than 6% of all characters will roll both an 18 and a 16.
In point buy, supposing neutral Dex and and Con and 7(!) in wis and cha, it's on a 28 point buy, when 15 is the RAW standard and 20 is the one used for organized play.
Umm 20 point buy human
18 18 10 9 8 7 aint pretty but more than possible
Elf
18 18 10 10 10 8 (with DEX INT at 18 since he said STR or DEX)
let me post the point buy costs as well
18(+17) 18(+10) 10(+0) 9(-1) 8(-2) 7(-4) = 17 + 10 + 0 - 1 -2 -4 = 20
the best way to deal with that is to give combat casting as bonus feat at level 1 , it makes perfect sense for the class to have it.
I see this as an alternative to people saying that Combat Casting should be an auto feat, and it helps with complaints about the MAD by creating a powerful synergy.
I like allowing people to still take the feat if they want to focus- there's a lot of feats this class is going to want. Assuming you have STR 16 and INT 16 (much more likely), you'll have +8-2= +6 to concentration for Spell Combat. Thus you don't need Combat Casting, but can still take it if you really want to get down to that 35% failure chance. It lets Spell Combat work at low levels, which I'm cool with.
As for the stats- If people really would like to sacrifice having a CON mod, then that's their problem. Being able to pull off Spell combat every round isn't going to necessarily keep you alive.
Umm 20 point buy human
Oh, right, that's embarrasing. Forgot the racial bonuses on the point buy, even though I remembered them on the dice rolling chances. Anyway, I don't think it's that big of an issue since with 10 con 10 dex and light armor, you'll be dead in melee in no time.
Being able to pull off Spell combat every round isn't going to necessarily keep you alive.
might not keep you alive but its kinda the main class feature , throw spell and hit in melee at the same time heheh its what's on the brouchure ;)
if you not using spell combat to throw out pain along with your attacks then whats the point of the class ?
we've already got penalty of self buffing melee power houses *cough* cleric *chough* orcale *cough*
Oh, right, that's embarrasing. Forgot the racial bonuses on the point buy, even though I remembered them on the dice rolling chances. Anyway, I don't think it's that big of an issue since with 10 con 10 dex and light armor, you'll be dead in melee in no time.
Umm 20 point buy human
not my Elf Whip magus I'm 15 feet away from that noise with an AC of 22
Being able to pull off Spell combat every round isn't going to necessarily keep you alive.might not keep you alive but its kinda the main class feature , throw spell and hit in melee at the same time heheh its what's on the brouchure ;)
if you not using spell combat to throw out pain along with your attacks then whats the point of the class ?
we've already got penalty of self buffing melee power houses *cough* cleric *chough* orcale *cough*
I know- that's exactly why I don't have a problem letting something like this stack with Combat Casting.
not my Elf Whip magus I'm 15 feet away from that noise with an AC of 22Oh, right, that's embarrasing. Forgot the racial bonuses on the point buy, even though I remembered them on the dice rolling chances. Anyway, I don't think it's that big of an issue since with 10 con 10 dex and light armor, you'll be dead in melee in no time.
Umm 20 point buy human
At level 1 with 18 Int? How do you pull that off? +4 dex, +1 dodge, +4 chain shirt I could see. But where do you get the last +3 from? And dodge means your still +4 below on the concentration check. And really, if you're going to attack with a whip without power attack and a strength bonus, why not just cast instead?
At level 1 with 18 Int? How do you pull that off? +4 dex, +1 dodge, +4 chain shirt I could see. But where do you get the last +3 from? And dodge means your still +4 below on the concentration check. And really, if you're going to attack with a whip without power attack and a strength bonus, why not just cast instead?not my Elf Whip magus I'm 15 feet away from that noise with an AC of 22Oh, right, that's embarrasing. Forgot the racial bonuses on the point buy, even though I remembered them on the dice rolling chances. Anyway, I don't think it's that big of an issue since with 10 con 10 dex and light armor, you'll be dead in melee in no time.
Umm 20 point buy human
Shield spell.
But yeah, whip is hardly an optimal weapon- it does no damage at all to most targets. It's just a spell vehicle at that point.
At level 1 with 18 Int? How do you pull that off? +4 dex, +1 dodge, +4 chain shirt I could see. But where do you get the last +3 from? And dodge means your still +4 below on the concentration check. And really, if you're going to attack with a whip without power attack and a strength bonus, why not just cast instead?not my Elf Whip magus I'm 15 feet away from that noise with an AC of 22Oh, right, that's embarrasing. Forgot the racial bonuses on the point buy, even though I remembered them on the dice rolling chances. Anyway, I don't think it's that big of an issue since with 10 con 10 dex and light armor, you'll be dead in melee in no time.
Umm 20 point buy humanShield spell.
But yeah, whip is hardly an optimal weapon- it does no damage at all to most targets. It's just a spell vehicle at that point.
exactly I resigned myself to the fact Magus was not meant to do melee damage in any serious quantity in its current form ;)
whip makes a pretty good shocking burst delivery system and once Magus gets the rest of its new touch spells it'll deliver them just fine to while keeping the light weight Magus out of the frontline
exactly I resigned myself to the fact Magus was not meant to do melee damage in any serious quantity in its current form ;)
whip makes a pretty good shocking burst delivery system and once Magus gets the rest of its new touch spells it'll deliver them just fine to while keeping the light weight Magus out of the frontline
Yeah, it really is a pretty good idea. I'd like to see more done to make a STR build viable. Allowing heavy armor right away would be one step- but that's a discussion for another thread.
At level 1 with 18 Int? How do you pull that off? +4 dex, +1 dodge, +4 chain shirt I could see. But where do you get the last +3 from? And dodge means your still +4 below on the concentration check. And really, if you're going to attack with a whip without power attack and a strength bonus, why not just cast instead?
Shield spell.
But yeah, whip is hardly an optimal weapon- it does no damage at all to most targets. It's just a spell vehicle at that point.
But that's just for 1 minute/day and costs you half your spells/day. I could see shield being a staple buff at level 5, maybe, but not at level 1. Cast shield and you won't have much spells to deliver, except for cantrips, and since his combat cantrips are ranged, you don't need a whip for them.
But that's just for 1 minute/day and costs you half your spells/day. I could see shield being a staple buff at level 5, maybe, but not at level 1. Cast shield and you won't have much spells to deliver, except for cantrips, and since his combat cantrips are ranged, you don't need a whip for them.At level 1 with 18 Int? How do you pull that off? +4 dex, +1 dodge, +4 chain shirt I could see. But where do you get the last +3 from? And dodge means your still +4 below on the concentration check. And really, if you're going to attack with a whip without power attack and a strength bonus, why not just cast instead?
Shield spell.
But yeah, whip is hardly an optimal weapon- it does no damage at all to most targets. It's just a spell vehicle at that point.
Yeah, at lvl one, this build is high on suck factor, since he's got one attack before he's done for the day. On the up side, even without shield, 18 AC isn't bad for a lvl 1 character.
Yeah, at lvl one, this build is high on suck factor, since he's got one attack before he's done for the day. On the up side, even without shield, 18 AC isn't bad for a lvl 1 character.
Agreed, 18 is good AC for a 1st level character. It's just that the issue I was discussing was that 18 int/dex at level 1 would make this character too strong due to concentration bonuses (according to phasics); at higher levels, the high stats won't matter that much for concentration.
Agreed, 18 is good AC for a 1st level character. It's just that the issue I was discussing was that 18 int/dex at level 1 would make this character too strong due to concentration bonuses (according to phasics); at higher levels, the high stats won't matter that much for concentration.Yeah, at lvl one, this build is high on suck factor, since he's got one attack before he's done for the day. On the up side, even without shield, 18 AC isn't bad for a lvl 1 character.
Ah, right- sorry, got a bit side-tracked. :)
I think he's wrong- unless you take that trait (which I don't include) you still have a 15% chance to lose the spell even with Combat Casting. And I think that it's a corner case anyways, as being 15 ft. away with a whip is not going to keep you from needing HP. I doubt anyone would actually ignore CON like he proposes. But some people do crazy stuff, so who knows?
getting multiple attacks earlier would certainty make the class feel more meleeish and like flurry the benefit only applies while flurrying so you'd want to be doing spell combat as often as possible showcasing the main class feature all the time
Flurry BAB = Monk Level -2
Magus Spell Combat progression would look like this
BAB Starting at
level 2 +0
level 3 +1
level 4 +2
Level 5 +3
Level 6 +4
Level 7 +5
level 8 +6/+1
level 9 +7/+2
level 10 +8/+3
level 11 +9/+4
level 12 +10/+5
level 13 +11/+6/+1
level 14 +12/+7+/2
level 15 +13/+8/+3
level 16 +14/+9/+4
level 17 +15/+10/+5
level 18 +16/+11/+6/+2
level 19 +17/+12/+7/+3
level 20 +18/+13/+8/+4Its almost as good as being a full BAB class BUT you only get the benefit when performing spell combat
I really like this idea. Being stuck with one-handed damage (no offhand options) means that having a higher BAB and faster iteratives won't overpower the class.
If it's good for the Monk (as a 3/4 BAB class), I can't see it being too good for the Magus.Since he still needs to cast defensively (and would likely want to, being in melee), he still has an opportunity to fail the spellcasting anyways.
I just like the idea of the Magus fighting duelist-style with an enemy, and then turning and putting up a wall of fire to block oncoming reinforcements, etc.
It has some multiclassing benefits for going into Freehand Fighter or the Duelist PRC.
It would also be nice if a feat comes out for a multiclass Magus to choose a single weapon or weapon combo that he can use Spell Combat with (like a bow, or sword and shield), that lets him go into things like Arcane Archer.
I very much like this idea.
Love it. :-)
That's a rather clever fix, and I'd say it's the minimum boost a magus needs for spell combat to be viable. (I would also drop the concentration penalty and add Combat Casting as a bonus feat.)
I don't think it would be overpowered if spellstrike got a similar treatment: you get to cast a touch spell and deliver it through a melee weapon attack as a single standard action, and you use your level as your BAB for that attack.
well techincally you can use any weapon for a spellstrike so that could potentially cause problems. you can even two weapon fight with spellstrike so allowing the flurry BAB bonus here is a bit..... risky shall we say.
I'm alot more comfortable having it just as a bonus to spell combat.