I've been working on levelling my monk character a bit and here's a twisted combo I read about and tell me if anything here is against the rules.
A monk attacks with his entire body when making unarmed strikes. So why not wield a Two-Handed weapon, take "two weapon fighting" and "improved Two Weapon Fighting" maybe even "Greater Two Weapon Fighting" as the actual feats, and use your kick as your offhand weapon? Thus a 10th level Ranger / 2nd monk could get 6 attacks: 3 greatsword, 3 kicks. To make matters even worse, if he wore monk's robes and cast the 3rd level ranger spell "Strong Jaw" on himself his kick attcks would do 3d8 damage.
Am I missing something here or is this combo just painfully wrong?
Matt
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You are missing something.
1) The monk's flurry of blows is assumed to use these feats anyway, you gain no additional benefit from them when you attack with flurry of blows even if you have them.
2) You can only flurry with monk weapons, only the staff is two-handed, and greatswords are not monk weapons.
3) When flurrying you are assumed to be mixing attacks anyway and can hit with any of them - so you can declare any given attack as a kick, left hand weapon, right hand weapon, whatever.
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You are missing something.
1) The monk's flurry of blows is assumed to use these feats anyway, you gain no additional benefit from them when you attack with flurry of blows even if you have them.
2) You can only flurry with monk weapons, only the staff is two-handed, and greatswords are not monk weapons.
3) When flurrying you are assumed to be mixing attacks anyway and can hit with any of them - so you can declare any given attack as a kick, left hand weapon, right hand weapon, whatever.
1) Was already taken into account. 6 attacks is the exact amount one with all three TWF feats and a BAB of at least +11 would get on a full-round attack.
2) See point 1, he's not flurrying.
3) See point 1, he's not flurrying.
EDIT: @OP, I see nothing wrong with this. It'll hurt, but not much more than just taking IUS (which, AFAIK, gives you the ability to kick someone in the face just as much as the monk ability does, just at a lower damage die).
No flurry of blows included, just basic attacks. I'm talking just take the feats as ranger feats and not flurrying. Just basic good old Two-weapon fighting.
hehehe you beat me to it StabbittyDoom
That'll teach me to read things properly! OKies, that does sound OK then.
Yeah rules wise I couldn't find anything wrong with it, but for me to try and spring it on my DM would cause me some regret. It just makes me feel all dirty like I'm cheating...
Matt
It's not really any different than using a greatsword + armor spikes for two-weapon fighting (although some people think that combination is cheesy as well).
No flurry of blows included, just basic attacks. I'm talking just take the feats as ranger feats and not flurrying. Just basic good old Two-weapon fighting.
So basically you want to have natural attacks to go with your regular attacks?
I don't mind that idea. Consider that the natural attacks take a -5 to hit, and are 1/2 strength minimum power attack.
Heck if you want to I would allow two weapon fighting then hitting with your unarmed strike too... of course the normal hits are at -2 to hit for two weapon fighting, then your unarmed are at -7 total from medium BAB means you probably aren't going to hit much.
Flurrying is the better choice.
Using IUS for your off-hand attacks would not make them "natural attacks", nor would they incur the additional -5 that goes with it.
@OP: Your build looks fine.
Using IUS for your off-hand attacks would not make them "natural attacks", nor would they incur the additional -5 that goes with it.
@OP: Your build looks fine.
I'm saying using them as natural attacks, which I believe is possible. While the build is fine realize the off hand attacks will still have all the problems of all off hand attacks since you are not flurrying (namely 1/2 strength bonus and minimum power attack bonus damage). The damage bump is something that is specific to flurry not the unarmed strike.
I'm saying using them as natural attacks, which I believe is possible. While the build is fine realize the off hand attacks will still have all the problems of all off hand attacks since you are not flurrying (namely 1/2 strength bonus and minimum power attack bonus damage). The damage bump is something that is specific to flurry not the unarmed strike.
No, the damage bump is NOT specific to FoB. While it does state in Flurry of Blows that a monk receives full strength bonus for all attacks, it also states under Unarmed Strike that:
"Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved
Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be
with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk
may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is
no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking
unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus
on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."
Note that this is in a separate section from FoB.
A multiclassed monk, Fighter/Monk, for example, attacking with a sword and a fist using TWF (NOT FoB), would certainly seem to get his/her full str. bonus damage on the fist, even as an off-hand, light weapon, since "A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes." There is no qualifier limiting such unarmed strikes to only being in a FoB.
Edit: First sentence.
Oops, quite correct. some reason I had it in my head that it was stuck over in the FoB section. Though I must say if there isn't such a thing as an off hand strike for a monk I would wonder how you would make one while two weapon fighting normally, if you get my idea.
I've been working on levelling my monk character a bit and here's a twisted combo I read about and tell me if anything here is against the rules.
A monk attacks with his entire body when making unarmed strikes. So why not wield a Two-Handed weapon, take "two weapon fighting" and "improved Two Weapon Fighting" maybe even "Greater Two Weapon Fighting" as the actual feats, and use your kick as your offhand weapon? Thus a 10th level Ranger / 2nd monk could get 6 attacks: 3 greatsword, 3 kicks. To make matters even worse, if he wore monk's robes and cast the 3rd level ranger spell "Strong Jaw" on himself his kick attcks would do 3d8 damage.
Am I missing something here or is this combo just painfully wrong?
Matt
combo is fine EXCEPT ;)
Strong jaw won't work on Monk Unarmed Strikes which are not classed as natural weapons so no 3d8dmg on your kicks
as for you attacks
Your +11BAB lets say 18STR so another +4 and a +3 sword, +2 amulet of mighty fists or some other way to add +2 to kicks
+11 BAB = 3 prime attacks , GTWF = 3 offhand attacks
all attacks are made at -2 due to TWF penalty
+16/+11/+6 main +15/+10/+5 offhand
main weapon does 2d6+7 dmg offhand kicks do 1d8+6 dmg
At 11th level your facing CR11-13ish let use cloud giant as an example AC25
so your 2 main attacks are hitting on 9 and 10, next on 14 and 15 and the last 2 on 19 and 20.
so basically chances of ~ 55% 30% and 10% on main and 50% 25% and 5% on offhand
which roughly translates into a 95% main hit per round and 80% offhand hit per round (lets call it 2 hits per round)
so on average your doing 2d6+7 +1d8+6 = 24.5 damage per round
seems perfectly reasonable to me
Oops, quite correct. some reason I had it in my head that it was stuck over in the FoB section. Though I must say if there isn't such a thing as an off hand strike for a monk I would wonder how you would make one while two weapon fighting normally, if you get my idea.
Good point. I would also point out that, even tho I was arguing for it, I'm not entirely convinced that allowing all monk unarmed strikes to get full str. bonus is what the rules intend. It's what they say, but not necessarily what is intended.
It's entirely possible that the rule cited is just meant to clarify that no matter what part of the body the monk attacks with, he/she gets full damage bonus, but only on FoB or when used as a primary attack.
In 3.5, where you could mix TWF and FoB, the example in the FAQ makes clear that additional attacks granted by TWF would NOT get the full str. dam bonus.
Given that it really only comes into play with multiclassing, and multiclassing is generally considered a "weaker" path, I go ahead and allow it. But I certainly wouldn't be disappointed, or even surprised, if it was clarified to mean "only with FoB or when an unarmed strike is the primary attack."
Phasics beat me to it, but I'm fairly certain that the spell Strong Jaw cannot be cast on your body part since they are not actually considered a natural weapon (same reason monks can't take the Improved Natural Attacks feat).
Unless there is something specific in the spell (like only working on bite attacks), then a monk's unarmed strike can, in fact, be improved with spells that improve natural attacks.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a
manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the
purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve
either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Monks can't take INA because they don't have natural attacks. They an attack that "is treated as" a natural attack in regards to "spells and effects" only.
Phasics beat me to it, but I'm fairly certain that the spell Strong Jaw cannot be cast on your body part since they are not actually considered a natural weapon (same reason monks can't take the Improved Natural Attacks feat).Unless there is something specific in the spell (like only working on bite attacks), then a monk's unarmed strike can, in fact, be improved with spells that improve natural attacks.
Monks can't take INA because they don't have natural attacks. They an attack that "is treated as" a natural attack in regards to "spells and effects" only.A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a
manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the
purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve
either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
oddly enough even if you GM allowed it and I'm not saying they all would that actually doesn't change much
Your average damage only increases from 24.5 to 33.5 which for a level 12 character is still meh, plenty of those level 12 build can do better
in fact If I'm not mistaken a level 12 monk can beat that
lets see
+10/+10/+5/+5/+0 base
monk robe so 2d8 dmg per attack
STR 18 (+4) and +3 amulet becuase you didn't spend money on a sword
+17/+17/+12/+12/+7
damage is 2d8+7 = 16dmg avg
vs AC25
hitting on 8's, 13's and 18
= 2 hits/round
= 32 dmg avg per round
oh look on par assuming GM allows strong jaw ;)