Let's say I'm a 10th Sorcerer / 10th Dragon Disciple... I have a BaB of +12 and I can perform as a Full attack action 2 attacks with my Dragon claws gained through my Draconic bloodline. My BaB normall allows for a 3rd attack do I just lose it when Im using my natural weapons or can I combine them in some way.
Would it be smarter for me to take all 3 attacks using my claws or am I limited to just the two?
Also, as an aside would you allow the same character to have the trait Magical Knack and the feat Practiced Spellcaster and allow them to stack.
Thanks in advance
Oscar
You're usually better off using the two natural attacks as a full round action, since both are at full BAB.
However, you could do either of the following :
+12 claw/+12 claw
Or
+12 claw/+7 claw/+2 claw
Or, if you take two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting...
+10 claw, +10 claw/+5 claw +5 claw/+0 claw
The first is better than the second (to me) as you have a much better chance of the second attack hitting.
The third is the same as if you'd taken 2 daggers and TWF/ITWF. The third is a viable option, and probably better than the second. I'd go with 1 or 3, not 2 under either circumstance, unless you're dealing with a bunch of easy to hit mooks, or you've got one big bad that's got a low AC and lots of HP.
|
Let's say I'm a 10th Sorcerer / 10th Dragon Disciple... I have a BaB of +12 and I can perform as a Full attack action 2 attacks with my Dragon claws gained through my Draconic bloodline. My BaB normall allows for a 3rd attack do I just lose it when Im using my natural weapons or can I combine them in some way.
Would it be smarter for me to take all 3 attacks using my claws or am I limited to just the two?
If using all natural attacks, you could attack claw/claw/bite. Something here has to be the secondary attack. If the bite, it would be: 2 claws +12 and bite +7.
If using a weapon in one hand, you could have: Weapon +12/+7/+2 and claw +7 and bite +7.
Note that TWF does not improve the attack from the secondary attack; Multi-attack does, however.
I've edited my post based upon the corrections provided by others. You can see my original above, which will put the corrections in context.
You have the two claw attacks and you also have the bite attack from DD 2. These are all natural attacks. Natural attacks do not gain iterative attacks from high BAB. You can, however, use a claw to hold a weapon and attack with that with full iterative attacks. If doing so the natural attacks are treated as secondary, with a -5 penalty. You also gain TWF penalties.
If using all natural attacks, you could attack claw/claw/bite with everything at +12.
If using a weapon in one hand, you could have: Weapon +8/+3/-2 and claw -1 and bite -1.
TWF and Multiattack can reduce your penalties.
With a weapon in one claw and with the TWF feat, you could have: Weapon +10/+5/+0 and claw +5 and bite +5.
With a weapon in one claw, with the TWF feat, and with Multiattack, you could have: Weapon +10/+5/+0 and claw +10 and bite +10.
*thanks to the posters below for the corrections*
Let's say I'm a 10th Sorcerer / 10th Dragon Disciple... I have a BaB of +12 and I can perform as a Full attack action 2 attacks with my Dragon claws gained through my Draconic bloodline. My BaB normall allows for a 3rd attack do I just lose it when Im using my natural weapons or can I combine them in some way.
Would it be smarter for me to take all 3 attacks using my claws or am I limited to just the two?
You have the two claw attacks and you also have the bite attack from DD 2. These are all natural attacks. Natural attacks do not gain iterative attacks from high BAB. You can, however, use a claw to hold a weapon and attack with that with full iterative attacks. If doing so the natural attacks are treated as secondary, with a -5 penalty.
If using all natural attacks, you could attack claw/claw/bite. Something here has to be the secondary attack. If the bite, it would be: 2 claws +12 and bite +7.
If using a weapon in one hand, you could have: Weapon +12/+7/+2 and claw +7 and bite +7.
Note that TWF does not improve the attack from the secondary attack; Multi-attack does, however.
TWF would hower improve the penalty on your primary hand as the sword in the primairy hand is treated as being part of TWF. natural attacks are consider light in this case which means there is a -4 penalty on all your primary hand attacks. two weapon fighting feat would reduce this to -2
so if you take multiattack and two weapon fighting you can reduce penalty for using weapons and natural attack to -2 on all attacks.
So without TWF or multiattack
+8/+3/+1 sword, +3 claw +3 bite
With TWF
+10/+5/+3 sword, +3 claw +3 bite
With Multiattack
+8/+3/+1 sword, +6 claw +6 bite
With TWF and Multiattack
+10/+5/+3 sword +6 claw +6 bite
You'd probably be better off looking for ways to give yourself a gore tail and wing attacks so you get more attacks as primary attacks which would be at +12 and secondary natural would be at +10 with multiattack
e.g.
|
|
TWF would hower improve the penalty on your primary hand as the sword in the primairy hand is treated as being part of TWF. natural attacks are consider light in this case which means there is a -4 penalty on all your primary hand attacks. two weapon fighting feat would reduce this to -2
Nope. There are no TWF penalties for combining attacks from a single hand and natural weapons. Review the natural attacks section of the Beastiary (p. 302).
Additionally, TWF penalties only apply if gaining an additional attack. There is no additional attack here.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If using all natural attacks, you could attack claw/claw/bite. Something here has to be the secondary attack. If the bite, it would be: 2 claws +12 and bite +7.
Where are you getting that something needs to be a secondary attack? Attacks are either primary or secondary, regardless of how many of either you have. When using the claw/claw/bite routine, all attacks are at your full BAB.
|
|
Where are you getting that something needs to be a secondary attack? Attacks are either primary or secondary, regardless of how many of either you have. When using the claw/claw/bite routine, all attacks are at your full BAB.
If using all natural attacks, you could attack claw/claw/bite. Something here has to be the secondary attack. If the bite, it would be: 2 claws +12 and bite +7.
True that.
TWF would hower improve the penalty on your primary hand as the sword in the primairy hand is treated as being part of TWF. natural attacks are consider light in this case which means there is a -4 penalty on all your primary hand attacks. two weapon fighting feat would reduce this to -2Nope. There are no TWF penalties for combining attacks from a single hand and natural weapons. Review the natural attacks section of the Beastiary (p. 302).
Additionally, TWF penalties only apply if gaining an additional attack. There is no additional attack here.
you mean this?
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.seems pretty clear using one weapon is still treated as TWF ;)
|
|
Where are you getting that something needs to be a secondary attack? Attacks are either primary or secondary, regardless of how many of either you have. When using the claw/claw/bite routine, all attacks are at your full BAB.
If using all natural attacks, you could attack claw/claw/bite. Something here has to be the secondary attack. If the bite, it would be: 2 claws +12 and bite +7.
I stand corrected. This was explicitly the case in 3.5 and I'm still making the transition. It appears that all natural attacks in Pathfinder can be primary.
Thanks!
True that.Where are you getting that something needs to be a secondary attack? Attacks are either primary or secondary, regardless of how many of either you have. When using the claw/claw/bite routine, all attacks are at your full BAB.
If using all natural attacks, you could attack claw/claw/bite. Something here has to be the secondary attack. If the bite, it would be: 2 claws +12 and bite +7.
with Tielfing racial primary gore attack
you could have
+12/+12/+12/+12 claw claw bite gore and don't need multiattack
|
|
you mean this?
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.seems pretty clear using one weapon is still treated as TWF ;)
No, that's not what I was refering to. Thanks for bringing it to my attention though. Yet another difference in the 3.5 to PF transition.
Thanks!
You do not suffer the TWF penalty when adding secondary natural attacks. The text Howie was referring to is contradicted by the text Phasics quoted, but the designers have specified that Howie's text is correct while Phasic's is mistaken.
You do not suffer the TWF penalty when adding secondary natural attacks. The text Howie was referring to is contradicted by the text Phasics quoted, but the designers have specified that Howie's text is correct while Phasic's is mistaken.
you mean this quote from james jacobs
I believe, incorrect; a fragment left in the rules from an earlier draft. Additional attacks made with natural weapons while you wield a manufactured weapon are treated as secondary attacks (and thus get a -5 penalty on attack rolls; a penalty that can be offset by Multiattack) but do NOT suffer additional penalties as if they were off-hand weapons.
Basically, the bolded part of the post above is wrong. It's a fragment left in the game from an earlier draft, and it should go away (hopefully in the latest upcoming round of errata).
-James Jacobs on the Paizo Rules Questions forum May 21st, 2010
he dosen't actucally say the melee weapon dosen't use TWF penalties he just clarifies that natural weapons don't suffer 1/2STR bonus instead of the intended 1.0x STR bonus
not only that it makes sense that when your using multiple weapons with melee or natural in combintation you should suffer penalites for doing so to offset the benefit of additonal attacks
|
|
I've edited my post based upon the corrections provided by others. Unfortunately, my editing deadline was hit before I got the last round of corrections in regarding TWF penalty not applying to the secondary natural attacks. I think the following covers everything:
You have the two claw attacks and you also have the bite attack from DD 2. These are all natural attacks. Natural attacks do not gain iterative attacks from high BAB. You can, however, use a claw to hold a weapon and attack with that with full iterative attacks. If doing so the natural attacks are treated as secondary, with a -5 penalty. You also gain TWF penalties on the weapon attack only.
If using all natural attacks, you could attack claw/claw/bite with everything at +12.
If using a weapon in one hand, you could have: Weapon +8/+3/-2 and claw +7 and bite +7.
TWF and Multiattack can reduce your penalties.
With a weapon in one claw and with the TWF feat, you could have: Weapon +10/+5/+0 and claw +7 and bite +7.
With a weapon in one claw and with the Multiattack feat, you could have: Weapon +8/+3/-2 and claw +10 and bite +10.
With a weapon in one claw, with the TWF feat, and with Multiattack, you could have: Weapon +10/+5/+0 and claw +10 and bite +10.
*thanks to the posters above for the corrections*
I've edited my post based upon the corrections provided by others. Unfortunately, my editing deadline was hit before I got the last round of corrections in regarding TWF penalty not applying to the secondary natural attacks. I think the following covers everything:
You have the two claw attacks and you also have the bite attack from DD 2. These are all natural attacks. Natural attacks do not gain iterative attacks from high BAB. You can, however, use a claw to hold a weapon and attack with that with full iterative attacks. If doing so the natural attacks are treated as secondary, with a -5 penalty. You also gain TWF penalties on the weapon attack only.
If using all natural attacks, you could attack claw/claw/bite with everything at +12.
If using a weapon in one hand, you could have: Weapon +8/+3/-2 and claw +7 and bite +7.
TWF and Multiattack can reduce your penalties.
With a weapon in one claw and with the TWF feat, you could have: Weapon +10/+5/+0 and claw +7 and bite +7.
With a weapon in one claw and with the Multiattack feat, you could have: Weapon +8/+3/-2 and claw +10 and bite +10.
With a weapon in one claw, with the TWF feat, and with Multiattack, you could have: Weapon +10/+5/+0 and claw +10 and bite +10.
*thanks to the posters above for the corrections*
and you get full strength bonus on all those attacks
|
|
and you get full strength bonus on all those attacks
Yes, you get full strength bonus on the to hit side. I think it is a reasonably common standard for doing this sort of analysis to exclude all of STR, Feat, Size, Enhancement, etc. bonuses unless they are initially stated by the poster.
However, you don't get full strength bonus on the damage. Looking at just the weapon(x3)/claw/bite attack, you would get x1 on the weapon, x1/2 on the claws and bite(since they are secondary along with the weapon).
I'm not 100% on the 0.5x str for the bite damage. The alternative would be that it is 1.5x str for the bite damage.
and you get full strength bonus on all those attacksYes, you get full strength bonus on the to hit side. I think it is a reasonably common standard for doing this sort of analysis to exclude all of STR, Feat, Size, Enhancement, etc. bonuses unless they are initially stated by the poster.
However, you don't get full strength bonus on the damage. Looking at just the weapon(x3)/claw/bite attack, you would get x1 on the weapon, x1/2 on the claws and bite(since they are secondary along with the weapon).
I'm not 100% on the 0.5x str for the bite damage. The alternative would be that it is 1.5x str for the bite damage.
thats what james jacobs amendment was talking about they are treated as secondary for attack rolls but not for damage.
First
the claws are primary , the bite is also primary, however when you add the bite to the claws the bite no longer does 1.5x STR since that bonus only applies when the bite is the only natural weapon so its str bonus dmg goes down to 1.0 when used with claws.
Second
sicne they are all primary attacks they all get full STR bonus during a mixed multi attack.
however they are treated as secondary for the attack roll at -5
So
With a weapon in one claw, with the TWF feat, and with Multiattack, you could have: Weapon +10/+5/+0 1.0x STR dmg and claw +10 1.0x STR dmg and bite +10 1.0x STR dmg.
|
|
and you get full strength bonus on all those attacks
Yes, you get full strength bonus on the to hit side. I think it is a reasonably common standard for doing this sort of analysis to exclude all of STR, Feat, Size, Enhancement, etc. bonuses unless they are initially stated by the poster.
However, you don't get full strength bonus on the damage. Looking at just the weapon(x3)/claw/bite attack, you would get x1 on the weapon, x1/2 on the claws and bite(since they are secondary along with the weapon).
I'm not 100% on the 0.5x str for the bite damage. The alternative would be that it is 1.5x str for the bite damage.
thats what james jacobs amendment was talking about they are treated as secondary for attack rolls but not for damage.
I don't understand it that way. I understand it to clarify that the secondary penalty and the TWF offhand penalty don't stack. This is what my post is based on. I'm not committed to the position. Please let me know what I've missed.
First
the claws are primary , the bite is also primary, however when you add the bite to the claws the bite no longer does 1.5x STR since that bonus only applies when the bite is the only natural weapon so its str bonus dmg goes down to 1.0 when used with claws.
Yeah, I know. However, the bite is already identified as having a 1.5x multiplier in addition to the claws. Some attacks (such as the attack of a dragon's bite) retain the 1.5x multiplier even with in a multiple attack. Given that the bite retains 1.5x multiplier in the presence of claws (and presumably their attack), I'm hesitent to downgrade them in a multi-attack sequence.
Second
sicne they are all primary attacks they all get full STR bonus during a mixed multi attack.
however they are treated as secondary for the attack roll at -5So
With a weapon in one claw, with the TWF feat, and with Multiattack, you could have: Weapon +10/+5/+0 1.0x STR dmg and claw +10 1.0x STR dmg and bite +10 1.0x STR dmg.
Yeah. We disagree on the secondary attacks retaining the 1.0x STR dmg multiplier. I'll review again, and am willing to be corrected.
*note, if you're going through a "But I just TOLD you" moment... It's probably me. It's been a long day. :D
Edit: I've reviewed the original James J. post and still stick to my position. The section that he said was subject to review does not include the 1/2 STR damage for secondary attacks.
Ultimately, I don't think this convo has further purpose until the errata is released. Folks will have different opinions.
just how I read it, take it for what its worth.