I'm running a game with 4 players and i talked with them and they agreed to roll stats. When they rolled they where 3 because the forth was working. After an hour the forth player came and he said he rolled stats and showed them to me. OMFG the stats where 17,17,16,16,15,12 and i said nice but as with other players i wanted him to roll in front of me. He then started screaming and yelling because i dint trusted him.(he plays dnd 16 years he is 32 years old, but he plays only rogue from back then and a friend of mine who was DMing a game with him told me that the same happened to his game with the stats thing.)
I think this happens because of my relative young age (21) compared to his years of experience. The other players are quiet on the matter but i think this behaviour of the rogue player shows lack of respect to the rules, the other players and the DM , and i'm sure more problems will come in the near future.
Should i be patient with this kind of players ? I tried to talk to him but he doesnt seem to hear me..... What should i do?
Should i be patient with this kind of players ? I tried to talk to him but he doesnt seem to hear me..... What should i do?
Tell him that all rolls have to be done in front of the DM. That cheating is not allowed in your group. And of course remind him that he can always choose pointbuy.
Let it go just this once, but insist that he make other rolls (saving throws, attack rolls, whatever) in plain view.
It's not like the stats he got are impossible, just statistically unlikely. Odds are he fudged some of the rolls, but there's no way to know for sure, and if he DID come by those stats legitimately, it'd be cruel to make him toss them out.
Let it go just this once, but insist that he make other rolls (saving throws, attack rolls, whatever) in plain view.
It's not like the stats he got are impossible, just statistically unlikely. Odds are he fudged some of the rolls, but there's no way to know for sure, and if he DID come by those stats legitimately, it'd be cruel to make him toss them out.
I disagree. So what if he rolled them legitimately. He didn't roll them in front of the DM, so they are worthless. Allowing this behavior just encourages other to use cheap tricks too.
I'm running a game with 4 players and i talked with them and they agreed to roll stats. When they rolled they where 3 because the forth was working. After an hour the forth player came and he said he rolled stats and showed them to me. OMFG the stats where 17,17,16,16,15,12 and i said nice but as with other players i wanted him to roll in front of me. He then started screaming and yelling because i dint trusted him.(he plays dnd 16 years he is 32 years old, but he plays only rogue from back then and a friend of mine who was DMing a game with him told me that the same happened to his game with the stats thing.)
I think this happens because of my relative young age (21) compared to his years of experience. The other players are quiet on the matter but i think this behaviour of the rogue player shows lack of respect to the rules, the other players and the DM , and i'm sure more problems will come in the near future.
Should i be patient with this kind of players ? I tried to talk to him but he doesnt seem to hear me..... What should i do?
I always tell players to roll in front of me. That takes care of the issue before it begins, assuming I ever do rolling again.
I know it is too late for that, but I would just tell him that is the standard, and you are sorry for not letting him know that. I am about the same age as the screamer, and having a young DM is no reason to act like that. He can reroll or he can not play. I would also let him know that screaming and yelling are not to be tolerated. I do understand if you don't want to tell him how to behave, but I would show him the door if he behaves that way again.
but i think this behaviour of the rogue player shows lack of respect to the rules, the other players and the DM , and i'm sure more problems will come in the near future.
You've answered your own question in that statement.
You're the DM, end of conversation, especially if presented in temper tantrum fashion. I don't think it's at all out of the question to have him roll his stats in front of you just as the other 3 players did. If you let him use the stats he "rolled" (being a known repeat offender), you will likely lose the trust/respect of the other 3 players.
I don't scream at players, and they don't scream at me. I would tell him not to bother coming back.
Thx a lot guys. i think i'll try to convice him , and i'll talk to the others to help him understand how important is to play by the rules. If that wont work then the solution is a 3 player party
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i'll talk to the others to help him understand how important is to play by the rules.
Also, when talking to the other players, ask them to indicate verbally that they support your DM decisions. They need to back you up actively so that the "rogue" player, pun intended, gets the message that the DM has final authority. This will negate the perceived lack of experience card that the rogue is trying to play.
Otherwise, you will more problems as the game goes on.
I disagree. So what if he rolled them legitimately. He didn't roll them in front of the DM, so they are worthless. Allowing this behavior just encourages other to use cheap tricks too.
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, the tree automatically cheated?
Making the guy reroll in front of witnesses is a legitimate response, and seems to be the majority opinion, but it may not be worth the bad feeling it's going to generate in that fourth player. It all comes down to whether you want that guy in your group or not, and whether you want to establish yourself as an inflexible, no compromise DM.
For what it's worth, I strongly suspect the guy did cheat on the rolls. I'd bet on it. I wouldn't tolerate that as a pattern of behavior, but I see no harm in giving him the benefit of the doubt one time. Did the other players get really bad results? Is it going to hurt the party as a whole that one of its members is unusually strong, healthy, smart, whatever at the start of the game?
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This might be the beginning of a long campaign for you. You are the GM you call the shots. If I was in his shoes I would respect that fact and just roll in front of everyone. It sounds like a problematic player to me. I would talk to him outside of the game and express your concern for his behavior.You should prepare for the possibility you have to ask him to leave.
People get funny for some reason about stats. I think the array you listed is too much. Someone will be along any moment to tell you they are weak. How does his score compare to the other players? I would factor that in before letting him keep his superhero.
I dont care about the stats he rolled, but the decision to do this alone while the others where with me, and the reaction to what i said.
I really want that player in the party (he is very experienced, and i could learn a lot about the game and DMing with such players)But his temperance and inability to play by the rules is what bothered me.
...help him understand how important is to play by the rules...
I think it would be very helpful if you steered away from accusing him of cheating, because that is obviously what his defensive strategy is based upon. The fact is that you can't proove him wrong.
If you walk that narrow line you probably have to answer the question "don't you trust me?" and this is a situation that should be avoided!
Make it clear that this is not a question of trust. If he insists tell him that wether he cheated or rolled fairly is not the question, it is an iron rule, that all rolls have to be made before the GM, end of story. Trust or mistrust are never coming into it.
Apologize only for not making that clear beforehand (as you should have) - but, to your defense, that is pretty much standard with all groups I have GMed or played in.
If he still is not swayed tell him you are sorry for the misunderstanding and that the player can come back any time that he respects your rules about how the game is gonna played.
..... and whether you want to establish yourself as an inflexible, no compromise DM.
That is a bit of a stretch. I would say it establishes him as a no-nonsense DM though.
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, the tree automatically cheated?
It doesn't matter if he cheated or not. His rolls are disqualified before we even get to that point, because they were not rolled in the presence of the DM.
It all comes down to whether you want that guy in your group or not, and whether you want to establish yourself as an inflexible, no compromise DM.
WAT.
If he allows this player to do as he likes, the only thing the DM sets a precedent for is for him being a door mat, asking for people to step on him, inviting further abuse.
I dont care about the stats he rolled, but the decision to do this alone while the others where with me, and the reaction to what i said.
I really want that player in the party (he is very experienced, and i could learn a lot about the game and DMing with such players)But his temperance and inability to play by the rules is what bothered me.
Experience does not equal a good player. I learned that first hand, and if he is not willing to learn to respect the DM after 16 years he is probably ignoring rules along the way also. I don't think you lose much if you let him go.
Making the guy reroll in front of witnesses is a legitimate response, and seems to be the majority opinion, but it may not be worth the bad feeling it's going to generate in that fourth player. It all comes down to whether you want that guy in your group or not, and whether you want to establish yourself as an inflexible, no compromise DM.
The player lost is privilege to a compromise when... "He then started screaming and yelling because I didn't trusted him .... he is 32 years old".
For what it's worth, I strongly suspect the guy did cheat on the rolls. I'd bet on it. I wouldn't tolerate that as a pattern of behavior, but I see no harm in giving him the benefit of the doubt one time.
His outburst proves that he cheated, an honest individual would've possibly gotten upset, but would've abided by the DMs ruling... especially being a 16 year vet to the game.
He's already stepped quite over the line when he threw the temper tantrum, about character creation. He doesn't warrant the benefit of the doubt unless he sits down and re-rolls those stats like a damn happy camper. An apology might not be out of the question, but I probably wouldn't push your luck.
EDIT: Wild, you already said you expect possible future problems, I would cut your losses and ask the other players if they know someone else who'd like to play.
EDIT: Wild, you already said you expect possible future problems, I would cut your losses and ask the other players if they know someone else who'd like to play.
Hahahah :D i already thought of this but all are gone to another city, and in about a month or two i'll be there too.
Thank you all for your help, the session is today i'll how it goes and inform you . Thx again
I have been in simmilar situations before and that is why I always do a point-buy. There is no easy answer for a player like this. I would let him keep the stats (it is conceivable that he did, in fact, roll them) and closely monitor his behavior tonight.
Put a box in the middle of the table and mandate that all rolls have to be made in plain view. If he whines or cries tonight look at him like he has a horn growing out of his ear and calmly move the adventure forward. If he continues to whine and cry, simply ignore him. A temper tantrum hurts him more than it hurts you.
Would you allow any one else to do that? If the answer is no, then...
Would you allow any one else to do that? If the answer is no, then...
Smartest... fish... EVER!
I have been in simmilar situations before and that is why I always do a point-buy.
I have come to prefer point-buy as my luck with dice always seems to be the worst at the table. Last time I tried to roll stats, I didn't meet the DMs minimum of at least +3 total modifier(across all 6 stats)... TWICE!! Just give me the points and send me on my merry way. :D
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Mr Fishy is wise beyond his fishy years.
I had this years ago and the stats were even more blatant than those. Ever since I have insisted all characters be created in front of the GM. I have stuck to this even when there are no stats to roll.
I have found that characters who are created together by the party with the GM in attendence tend to be more balanced and sensible. The party also tends to work better in game when this happens.
I had this discussion with my present party about this rule and my point was that I would never treat a character rolled with 3 18's outside my presence to be acceptable but I have seen it happen in my presence. Why risk my rejection?
It's like that old saying "please do not ask for credit as a refusal often offends."
Oh and if he screamed at you I would suggest he's taking this game far too seriously and needs to chill the hell out.
Minor observation:
To me rolling the scores (and any dice roll) at the table with the other players IS PART OF THE GAME. The "Hooo!, Ouch!, D'ho!, YES!" stuff make it worth what it's worth.
Have him reroll in front of you, and check his dice before you do. Seriously, I used to have a player who had altered his own set of d6s to use in rolling stats. I confiscated them and watched him very closely after that.
OK. Get a stick.
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I have been in simmilar situations before and that is why I always do a point-buy.Even when players do roll legitimately you will have those that roll a top score of 12 while another rolls a bottom score of 16. It creates such an uneven playing field for the group that it just feels unfair to them.
I tend to avoid rolls for stats and hps based upon that. Rolls should be for things in the now, rather for the entire campaign.
I like the excitement and organic point values of rolled stats, but have seen campaigns turned into "The Heroic adventures of BOB and his hapless group of almost capable lackeys" simply due to stat imbalances.
You can try to retrofit really bad or really good rolls, or you can allow rerolls until it "looks right", but those solutions are fraught with problems.
One strategy I heard about here that I like and might try someday is to have everyone roll one set of stats by your preferred method. These sets of stats are then put in the party pool. Any player may choose any set of stats from that pool of choices to build their character with. Maybe someone rolls an 18 and nothing under 10 for a set and everyone chooses that basic stat set to run with - but maybe one quirky player takes another stat set that is almost as good except it has one abysmal score for some fun roleplaying idea. It gives you the fun of rolling without having bad rolls make your character nearly irrelevent for large portions of a campaign.
I think this happens because of my relative young age (21) compared to his years of experience.
No, it happens because he is immature, no matter how many years he has been gaming. Really, following table and GM rules is a better sign of years of play than throwing a childish tantrum when asked to do so.
If you know this person well then I am stunned they would treat you this way. If you don't, then tell them they are nothing special and if they want to play in the game they need to follow all the rules EVERYONE else follows, including table die rolling conventions.
He can choose to play or keep his pre rolled stats and try to get another GM to use them in their game.
Seriously, he screamed and yelled at you? And he is in his 30's? REALLY? Wow.
Avoid the problem now. Don't let him in the game unless he is absolutely needed somehow or proves himself trustworthy.
So this guy actually threw a temper tantrum? Regardless of what or why, he was literally screaming and yelling, at you right? In my mind there is no question, no doubt, nothing. He's gone. I don't play with children, regardless of their age.
So this guy actually threw a temper tantrum? Regardless of what or why, he was literally screaming and yelling, at you right? In my mind there is no question, no doubt, nothing. He's gone. I don't play with children, regardless of their age.
Restraining order?
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It's an unspoken rule in D&D that all character creation rolls are supposed to happen in front of the DM (or another player) or through some automated dice rolling system online like invisiblecastle.
This includes HP rolls, otherwise you have people come to your table from last session and they always rolled 9 or 10 on their d10.
I'd always wait to roll in front of a DM - otherwise you'll hate yourself when you are alone and DO roll really well, since it's essentially a tree that fell in the woods that nobody heard.
So this guy actually threw a temper tantrum? Regardless of what or why, he was literally screaming and yelling, at you right? In my mind there is no question, no doubt, nothing. He's gone. I don't play with children, regardless of their age.Restraining order?
I was thinking more along the lines of fist fight...but that might have something to do with me generally (there has been times where people had pistols) being the most well armed person at the table...
The problem with tolerating the player's actions is there is no good reason NOT to roll in front of the GM unless you're cheating. If the issue is wanting to plan your character before the group meets, there are online methods of certifying dice rolls.
Most groups are not ideal for rolling stats. It takes a certain kind of non-competitive mind-set to be okay with playing a poorly rolled character. Point buy is fine, stat arrays are fine, even the suggestion of rolling the stats then pooling the results and letting each character choose whichever set they want. All of these ways guarantee fairness. This guy obviously has a competitive nature and wants to have a set of stats to ensure he can perform well. There's nothing wrong with that. The problems are that the stat rolling system is really bad for that kind of player, and cheating is the wrong way to deal with it.
My suggestion is drop the stat rolling system and go with point buy or one of the other "fair" options mentioned in this thread.
Mr. Fishy has rolled for stats for years. Mr. Fishy does not roll well. Mr. Fishy is a clever player because of low stats mean you have to be more canny than the guy with 18 everything. Mr. Fishy's trollop roll well and curses point buy. She plays an awesome sorcerer.
A couple points, IMO:
- The other 3 players rolled in front of you, fairly and transparently. He didn't. This is not fair to the other 3 players or to you as the ref.
- Screaming and yelling shouldn't be tolerated... be it from a 16 year old, 32 year old, or 64 year old.
- If he screamed and yelled because he thought you were accusing him of cheating, calmly state that it's purely done out of a desire for fairness and evenhandedness. Give him the chance to apologize and do the right thing.
So, a few options come from this:
1. Ask him to roll in front of you, noting that it's a also a fairness issue to the other players.
2. Noting that the other players abided without outburst, an apology is in order.
3. State that in order to establish fairness evenly across all players, all players will be subject to re-rolls because of this one player's stubborn refusal to do so. If the other players balk, acknowledge that the one player's refusal to play honestly and fairly has forced your hand into this draconian solution.
If all else fails:
4. Politely show him the door.
5. Politely show him the door.
6. Crassly show him the door.
I would save yourself trouble in the long run and politely tell him he's not welcome to play. There is no way that a reasonable 32 year old who has been player for a number of years would expect to use numbers they'd rolled without witnesses.
I would never assume I was okay to roll anything outside of the view of a witness. Until and unless a GM specifically told me to, I'd make sure everything was visible.
I play and DM in a few groups. One we've been playing together for a decade. We still roll in front of each other. Once a hit die was rolled outside of the my view because we forgot to do it at the end of the session. Big deal.
This player should have at the very least asked first. He didn't. Make him do it again. Worst case scenario is he wasn't cheating and rolls worse. Oh well. Should've saved those good rolls for when the DM is watching.
Thank you all for your suggestions and ideas.
The session went bad. The player finally agreed to play with the rules and rolled the stats. He rolled pretty well 17,16,14,12,11,10 and i was happy we where going to play. Then the shock comes. I ask him what race and class does he have in mind and i tell him that with these stats he could play anything in a very good level. His response : "I dont like what i rolled, for that reason i'll play a half-celestial drow noble monk" . I told him "The drow noble has a level adjustment +3 (from DnD is +3) and the half-celestial +3 (i made it +3 the moment he told me his intention, in DnD it is +5 ), so your character will start 1 lvl monk half celestial drow noble while the rest party will be 7 lvl and face encounters and problems for 7 lvl party". He told me "i dont care i can perfectly stand up to these problems".
Ok i said and the campaign started. After about a hour the party is ambushed by some slavers and the Half-Celestial Drow Noble Monk (with 14 hp and 23 AC, 20 str,25 dex,20 con, 12 int, 22 wisdom, 16 cha) uses his race SP ability suggestion to one of them and tells him to stand still in order hug him. The spell succeeds and the drow graps him and starts flying (feathers from half-celestial) and then he tells me that because he had taken the feat throw everything he throws the slaver to one other slaver and he throwed him from 60 feet expecting that both slavers would take 6d6 falling damage plus the damage that the improvised weapon (the slaver!) would do....
I looked him and told me that this i doesnt work exactly like this. His response "The feat is called THROW ANYTHING, so i grab ANYTHING I WANT and throw it ANYWHERE I WANT" (caps for screaming). One of the players a very experienced DM tells him that i have right, but the Drow keeps on yelling about cheating him...
The result was that he gave up playing saying he could do nothing to help the party and at the next encounter he simply sat on a rock and was looking at the fight.
So Mr. Fishy's 7 year old is available if you need a man to stand in.
Wow. I mean wow.
I'd have stopped him the moment he suggested half-celestial drow and shown him the door. There's nothing remotely appropriate in that. And even after getting that far, when he screamed about the Throw Anything feat, I'd throw his ass out the door.
Seriously, you're better off with this guy a long way from your gaming table.
The good think is that we arw not friends (even if we where,after that...)
The bad think mr.fishy is that i'm from greece, otherwise i would like to play with a "7 year old fishy" rather than a 32 year old weirdo
Thanks god in less than a month i'll be in Thessaloniki where my rest friends are.
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I have a very similiar player in my regular group. He is argumentative and is always trying to twist rules (he also wanted to play a Drow Noble and said its only a +1 lvl adjustment because in Pathfinder that is it). Unfortunately, it is a long established group. When he gets too bad there is usually an explosion and yelling then the others come down on him. The usual result is he quits and then comes back next week. Then he'll be better behaved for awhile, then the cycle begins again. Do yourself a favor and don't let this happen to you. I'm stuck because this is a RL friend( a good one at that) that has some maturity and respect issues. No matter how much knowledge this guy has, it won't be beneficial to you because he is contentious.
I know this has essentially been addressed, but I find a good rule of thumb is: would you accept this sort of behavior outside of gaming?