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My question/confirmation request is this. A Colossal Dragon casts Anti-Magic Field. Now it's centered on the caster. The caster, being a colossal dragon, takes up 25 feet of space. Now the Anti-Magic Fields radius is 10-feet. So that means(provided I'm understanding this correctly, and the spell's radius doesn't extend based on caster's size) that the dragon's space is larger than the spell's radius?
So then one wonders, why would a larger dragon even bother casting anti-magic field? Since it seems to do the dragon no good. Not big enough radius to extend to enemy targets, and not a big enough radius to fully cover the dragon.
My question/confirmation request is this. A Colossal Dragon casts Anti-Magic Field. Now it's centered on the caster. The caster, being a colossal dragon, takes up 25 feet of space. Now the Anti-Magic Fields radius is 10-feet. So that means(provided I'm understanding this correctly, and the spell's radius doesn't extend based on caster's size) that the dragon's space is larger than the spell's radius?
So then one wonders, why would a larger dragon even bother casting anti-magic field? Since it seems to do the dragon no good. Not big enough radius to extend to enemy targets, and not a big enough radius to fully cover the dragon.
Perhaps it extends 10 feet FROM the caster?
So it would actually be roughly 45-feet across.
(Just a theory.)
My question/confirmation request is this. A Colossal Dragon casts Anti-Magic Field. Now it's centered on the caster. The caster, being a colossal dragon, takes up 25 feet of space. Now the Anti-Magic Fields radius is 10-feet. So that means(provided I'm understanding this correctly, and the spell's radius doesn't extend based on caster's size) that the dragon's space is larger than the spell's radius?
Yes, that is true, but the dragon gets to pick the intersection from which the field emanates. So, he can pick an intersection closest to target he wants.
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Well the only bit we have on this is the following bit from AMF Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.
Which reads to me meaning the field is a 10 ft radius emanating from your center of mass. Though this is still not too big of an issue as I see it as while the dragon may take up 25 squares of space only about 1 of those spaces will be its head, 3-4 its neck, its tail will be mostly outside of the squares, its body will take up about 10, its wings another 5ish each. What I mean by all this is, to FIGHT a dragon that big, you are going to have to enter those squares that is occupies if you hope to come anywhere close to hitting the thing with your weapon.
You don't have to enter a dragon's space to attack it, as far as I know any way. Lets continue with a colossal dragon. It's space is 25 ft(speaking of which, where are the actualy space/reach general tables located? I can't seem to find them in either the Core Book or the Beastiary). We'll mark the Dragon's space as X with the enemy space as Y
Y
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
Y is a standard medium creature. Lets say a foolish human with a sword. He's attacking the dragon head on(bad idea). Once he's adjacent(sp) to the dragon, his reach(5ft) allows him to attack the dragon, he needn't enter the dragon's space to attack him.
My understand is that unless a creature has a reach of 0ft, it does not need to enter the enemy creature's space to attack it.
So as my adove post. (Which assumed that the spell was centered on the dragon on didn't grow due to dragon's size) as said before. It's really not big enough to be all that effective to use against enemies or to protect the dragon.
So again, why would an intelligent larger dragon even bother learning anti-magic field as one of it's very few spells known since it appears that the spell is rather useless to it. Unless I'm mistaken.
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So again, why would an intelligent larger dragon even bother learning anti-magic field as one of it's very few spells known since it appears that the spell is rather useless to it. Unless I'm mistaken.
If you want to hit a dragons body with your weapon you are GOING to have to enter its spaces, simply due to the fact that its body is still another 5 feet into its space.
The problem I see here is that "space" is being misinterpreted as "hitbox." This simply isn't the case. If you want to try to attack the dragons neck, body, feet, shoulders... hell anything but it head or tail (The two most dangerous places to stand) you are going to have to enter its space.
So again, why would an intelligent larger dragon even bother learning anti-magic field as one of it's very few spells known since it appears that the spell is rather useless to it. Unless I'm mistaken.
If you want to hit a dragons body with your weapon you are GOING to have to enter its spaces, simply due to the fact that its body is still another 5 feet into its space.
The problem I see here is that "space" is being misinterpreted as "hitbox." This simply isn't the case. If you want to try to attack the dragons neck, body, feet, shoulders... hell anything but it head or tail (The two most dangerous places to stand) you are going to have to enter its space.
If you want to house-rule it, sure.
Aye, I've yet to run across anything that states you have to enter a dragon's space to attack it. Once again, afaik, by RAW. All you have do to attack something in melee is have the enemy within your reach(I.E being adjacent to it if you have 5ft of reach).
As I said, the dragon can pick the intersection of the origin of the emanation. In this example he picks the upper left corner of his "square" as shown by the `.
This puts the Knight Y in the Antimagic field shown by the 0.
0000
00Y0
00`0XXX
0000XXX
__XXXXX
__XXXXX
__XXXXX
I had originally considered that as well, but I had dismissed it since the spell had said it's centered on the caster, which I considered the middle of the caster's space. But then again, for a medium caster, it would be really any corner he/she likes.
Also, I can't seem to find the a general space/reach table in either the Core book or the Beastiary, I know all the sizes and reach basically, but it's still nice to have a table to refer to.
Table 8-4 page 195 in the core rules.
I see a colossal dragon really takes up a 30 ft. square. Well, that changes everything....
Thank you. I found it after another look through the combat section.
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If you want to house-rule it, sure.
So again, why would an intelligent larger dragon even bother learning anti-magic field as one of it's very few spells known since it appears that the spell is rather useless to it. Unless I'm mistaken.
If you want to hit a dragons body with your weapon you are GOING to have to enter its spaces, simply due to the fact that its body is still another 5 feet into its space.
The problem I see here is that "space" is being misinterpreted as "hitbox." This simply isn't the case. If you want to try to attack the dragons neck, body, feet, shoulders... hell anything but it head or tail (The two most dangerous places to stand) you are going to have to enter its space.
I think the idea is that, in order for part of your weapon to contact the dragon, THAT part of the weapon must enter its space, and is nonmagical while it does.
If your going just by Pathfinder RAW = it is only a 10' area.
If your not going by Raw, then the old 10' from caster, based on caster size, always worked in the past. Some players might try to take advantage, but a good GM resized the spell down or up, based on players actions.
If your going just by Pathfinder RAW = it is only a 10' area.
If your not going by Raw, then the old 10' from caster, based on caster size, always worked in the past. Some players might try to take advantage, but a good GM resized the spell down or up, based on players actions.
Sorry, what? A good DM will change a spell's area of effect, then arbitrarily modify it again, without notice, because of a player's actions?
I'd say a good DM would seriously consider the consequences before changing something so vital, rather than keep changing his/her mind.
my 2cp.
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This same problem exists with other spells (silence, light cast on self, and so on). IMC there is a rule clarification on spells cast on objects: if you cast a non-instantaneous spell on an object and the object is later broken or disassembled, the spell terminates. So a stick with Light cast on it cannot be broken to make two sticks with Light. :)
Since casting Light on the stick is presumed to affect the entire stick (makes sense thematically as well as from a game mechanics standpoint), why not do the same with spells that affect creatures? So I have another rule clarification: "centered on caster" simply means that the entire caster is affected and then the spell expands out from there.
I believe when I brought this up previously in the early days of PFRPG, JJ posted somewhere that my "clarification" was a house rule and was not RAI. So be it; my "house rule" still stands for my games.
The problem I see here is that "space" is being misinterpreted as "hitbox."
Because that's how targetable space in D&D/PF works?
If your going just by Pathfinder RAW = it is only a 10' area.
If your not going by Raw, then the old 10' from caster, based on caster size, always worked in the past. Some players might try to take advantage, but a good GM resized the spell down or up, based on players actions.
Sorry, what? A good DM will change a spell's area of effect, then arbitrarily modify it again, without notice, because of a player's actions?
I'd say a good DM would seriously consider the consequences before changing something so vital, rather than keep changing his/her mind.
my 2cp.
In other words, If the player cast enlarge person, or Dragon Shape 3 on himself, to increase his size. Then cast anti-magic. Then shrinks back down to normal size, just to get an oversized anti-magic area of effect. A good GM will reduce the anti-magic area down with the player.
Kind of what GM are for, referees. To adjust the game, based on players action, to keep a fun and balanced playing field.
Judging from the core rulebook, the entire dragon is effected because he is in the area. Anyone the dragon grapples or bites is in the same area and is effected. A weapon that embeds, like an arrow, would become effected, so too bad about that acid fountain arrow. All other forms of melee would not put you in the space of the dragon. If you charged the dragon with your lance, the lance would become embedded and is mundane after imbedding, but your armor is still magic. Some DMs might make the dragon roll shock trauma to survive. You want a sticky discussion? The damage from a magic weapon might be rendered normal because it directly harms the dragon.
My question/confirmation request is this. A Colossal Dragon casts Anti-Magic Field. Now it's centered on the caster. The caster, being a colossal dragon, takes up 25 feet of space. Now the Anti-Magic Fields radius is 10-feet. So that means(provided I'm understanding this correctly, and the spell's radius doesn't extend based on caster's size) that the dragon's space is larger than the spell's radius?
So then one wonders, why would a larger dragon even bother casting anti-magic field? Since it seems to do the dragon no good. Not big enough radius to extend to enemy targets, and not a big enough radius to fully cover the dragon.
To answer your original question, for a colossal dragon to use antimagic field effectively it would have to use the widen spell metamagic feat on it. By the time a dragon is colossal in size, most (or all) can cast 9th level spells so this shouldn`t be an issue if it favors the antimagic field-melee tactic. Like many other spells for spellcasters, its great to have for a while but diminishes as the spellcaster increases in power. In order to get more mileage out of the spell, its got to be adjusted with metamagic feats.
Here are a few battle tactics a dragon can use with a regular antimagic field.
Each scenario: Buff up including antimagic field, the dragon keeps all its buffs and has this 10' radius area of antimagic in its mid section.
1. Land on a few PCs with its crush attack and squeeze to reduce it size (taking the -4 to hit and AC) now PCs being crushed are in antimagic zone. They cannot use the silent Dim Door, their helm of teleportation, their freedom of movement, Dimensional Hop from the cleric with the travel domain shuts down, etc. PCs under dragon are now getting crushed with NO magical buffs or equipment to help.
2. Dragon flies low over the terrain to surprise the party heading towards its lair. This dragon as the snatch feat. Flies over party grabs PC with snatch and keeps flying by. Next round he pins said PC inside the antimagic zone and flies away doing claw damage each round till dead. Rinse and repeat with rest of party.
Once the dragon can pull the creature into its square with crush or a grapple or snatch the dragon is not effected by the antimagic zone so he still has DR and everything, while the PC is sucking rocks for water with masterwork weapons and no buffs!
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It's just a lot more streamlined to assume the casting covers the whole creature, and from that point on, basing the 10-ft emanation AROUND the creature, extending 10ft away from it in all directions, is just the logical reading of the spell description.
Aside from that:
"Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point."
Only that with a Antimagic field(emanation) you don't get to choose the point of origin, the emanation is centered on...YOU. you are the source of the emanation and the effect is measured outward from there, and the only question remaining is: Do you measure from your center of mass, or do you measure from "you" as a creature.
I like and agree with this interpretation.
As DM, applying what I consider common sense, I'd rule for 10ft outward.
It was clearly thought for medium characters...
What would be the purpose of the spell for a huge/gargantuan/colossal dragon otherwise?
Why all huge+ dragons would have the spell in the default list. To duck and cover? Squeeze in it to protect themselves?
Of course my players are thriving to apply things RAW.
FAQ requesting!
As DM, applying what I consider common sense, I'd rule for 10ft outward.
It was clearly thought for medium characters...
What would be the purpose of the spell for a huge/gargantuan/colossal dragon otherwise?
Why all huge+ dragons would have the spell in the default list. To duck and cover? Squeeze in it to protect themselves?
Of course my players are thriving to apply things RAW.
FAQ requesting!
...and as I said to you yesterday, even the Globe of Invulnerability and Lesser Globe of Invulnerability have the very same entry 'Area: 10-ft. radius emanation centered on you'.
The only difference between the (L)GoI and the AMF is that while the first spell, once cast, continues to stay in the very same spot where it appeared, the AMF follows the caster.So following your reasoning, nothing would prevent me to Shapechange into a Huge Dragon, cast GoI to create a huge dome 20+ ft. radius diameter, then revert back to Medium size and fill it with the equivalent of 3-4 FULL PARTIES (hey, the spell has already been manifested after all... my size doesn't matter anymore, right ?)
We all have to remember that all spells are not only seen with Medium (and Small)-sized creatures in mind, they are actually BALANCED around them. The entire CR system would be crushed, burnt and its ashes scattered to the winds if we suppose to balance a fight against a creature with an AC in the 40s and a to-hit around the 35s with characters whose scores, normally balanced on these very same values thanks to magic items, suddenly drop to an AC in the 20s (if very very lucky) and a to-hit in the 25s (if very very optimized).
The problem is not the creature named Dragon, this isn't 3.x anymore where their CR was purposely lower than their effective power (a CR 12 Dragon was effectively a CR 14-15 creature), now they are balanced around other creatures with the same CR.
The problem is trying to squeeze something out of a spell which was not supposed to work in that way on a creature with a Natural Armor of 30, a natural Strength Score of 35 and a BaB of +20 and more.
And let's not forget, a Huge Dragon can still get benefits from the frakkin' spell, only thing is, this is not an 'autopilot route to victory' where he ignores all the benefits the characters are expected to have in order to fight him AND contemporary keeps his status of flying meat-mincer the size of a whale. The magic word here is 'squeezing'.
The Dragon can 'curl to a ball' squeezing his whole size into the AMF (like a Large Giant CAN squeeze into a corridor made for Medium-sized creatures - remember the old 'Eye of the Beholder 2' videogame with the Frost Giants wiggling in the dungeons and using only their fists ?) to be immune to any spells and supernatural attacks; clearly this would prevent them to use most (if any) of their natural attacks, and flying would be impossible (a huge 'pokeball' weighing thousands of pounds which has to flap its wings would be a very, very strange thing to allow - not counting that the wings, in order to sustain the mass, would have to spread and thus lie outside of the Field as well). Then, the next round he can extend to his normal space and fight without penalties, and since some parts of its body would lie outside of the AMF, 'any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field'.
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For spells like this you pick a part of the creature to use as the center of the radius.
Thank for your reply, wraithstrike.
I would to ask you your opinion about 3 scenarios (below).
You are the GM ruling a 34th level campaign ;) and a player of yours prepares for a fight against a party of 'generic' 30th human foes, very tough guys.
His character is 'Stiffy' the gargantuan violet dragon with levels in whatever you like.
Before battle, he decides to use antimagic and ignore all other wondrous epic features Stiffy may have.
You always asked yourself how your player managed to get to the 34th level. Anyway he did and then he says to you:
First try:
"I cast antimagic on Stiffy tail tip.
Moving my tail is a free action, isn't it? I can move it whatever I like and intercept all the melee attacks against me even if they are flanking me..."
please note the human foes are 30th and dumb and they just attack melee with their +9 adamantine! club ;)
what would you reply?
Second try:
"I cast antimagic on this interception of the side of the 4x4 gargantuan miniature of stiffy." Well, at least the point is set once and for all.
"They are attacking me from all sides!!!, Please GM, is there facing in the game? may I flip around 180° as free? immediate? as a swift? or at the end of my turn my head is there and my bottom the other side and I just stuck until my next round in this position? Have I -5 to perception the side my bottom is?
what would you reply?
Third and last:
"Hello GM, my friend. I want to do that: I cast antimagic on mail tail tip, then i stretch my tail, 90% of my body is still outside antimagic
if 90% of my body is out I could cast another antimagic on my left claw, I stretch if far far away, I'm a very elastic dragon, and now 60% of my body is out...
I can cast a third... well now probably stop but I've antimagic everywhere and I don't fear their club anymore
how would you insult him?
Put apart my stupid jokes, those are all things players would try to call into game...
Sorry I did not see this.
1. You can't cast spells like that on a specific body part. You can cast it on the creature as a whole, only.
2. The game has no facing at all. You can choose a square or point that the creature occupies, and have that count as the center of the radius of the effect.
3. See 1. :)
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My question/confirmation request is this. A Colossal Dragon casts Anti-Magic Field. Now it's centered on the caster. The caster, being a colossal dragon, takes up 25 feet of space. Now the Anti-Magic Fields radius is 10-feet. So that means(provided I'm understanding this correctly, and the spell's radius doesn't extend based on caster's size) that the dragon's space is larger than the spell's radius?
So then one wonders, why would a larger dragon even bother casting anti-magic field? Since it seems to do the dragon no good. Not big enough radius to extend to enemy targets, and not a big enough radius to fully cover the dragon.
Perhaps it extends 10 feet FROM the caster?
So it would actually be roughly 45-feet across.
(Just a theory.)
That's how we do it for protection spells like that. The radius of the spell extends out from the body, not a pin-point in the center.
Most of the spells were written from the perspective of the core race player character, so when you have things of differing sizes it gets weird
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I am going to FAQ this though. The answer I quoted(paraphrased) is from a dev, but now my search-fu is failing me. In any event an official answer would never hurt.
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unfortunately you have to use the games definition of emanation, not a dictionary.