For the whole lava bit, swimming in it without repercussion really does go pretty far... that's why you apply damage to all the items they are carrying and have them make Fortitude saves against having burns every round they stay totally immersed.
|
I like the "movie reality" comments, and I'll push it a bit further -- when my 12th level fighter falls off a cliff, who says he's not tumbling down the sloped parts, and clinging to branches to slow his fall, and finally lands in a big snowdrift? It's all in imagination-land, and I can imagine a lot of scenarios that allow mundanes to be heroic, without also having them be magical.
"Well, he fell when a dragon dropped him, so your claim fails."
"Oh, yeah? Well, then, I obviously yanked off part of his wing and used it to hang-glide safely to the ground."
Give me an "unrealistic" situation and I'll give you a way to make it make it possible without magic.Sorry, Seeker, but your problem with fighters falling seems to be too little imagination, not too much realism.
Oooooo...dragon wing hang gliding. Pure win. I will incorporate that into my Kingmaker game somehow...
Hmm, I guess it really is a matter of perspective. I find it more jarring that a fighter can actually slay things 50 times his or her size while a fall is an autokill. If you can have magic why can't I have this?
Hmm...max 20d6 on a fall, average damage = 70hp. Most high level fighters have a lot more than that, and usually can afford things like potions of fly or a ring of featherfall. I'm not saying your grip doesn't have validity, I'm just saying that a fighter that doesn't take advantage of available resources deserves to be a stain at the bottom of a cliff.
Hmm, I guess it really is a matter of perspective. I find it more jarring that a fighter can actually slay things 50 times his or her size while a fall is an autokill. If you can have magic why can't I have this?Hmm...max 20d6 on a fall, average damage = 70hp. Most high level fighters have a lot more than that, and usually can afford things like potions of fly or a ring of featherfall. I'm not saying your grip doesn't have validity, I'm just saying that a fighter that doesn't take advantage of available resources deserves to be a stain at the bottom of a cliff.
Most high level fighters are by definition "Legendary" (see Legend Lore). Legendary heroes surviving a great fall that would kill most people, not that radical of an idea for a fantasy game. (Don't forget to use the Massive Damage rule option if it really bothers you).
|
Swimming in lava, that one pushes past my suspension of disbelief. However, according to the rules - contact = 2d6 and immersion (which would include swimming) = 20d6 - if you add in Massive Damage with a modifier to the save for consecutive rounds of damage, this works too.
I suggest you take a look at Fire and Brimstone: A Comprehensive Guide to Lava, Magma, and Superheated Rock. It provides extensive rules for hyper-realistic gameplay involving lava, magma, and the like. Plus, it's FREE!
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
For those who want their Fighters to have more 'magical' powers...
Ha! The Wizard! Ashton still makes me do the voice for him sometimes. (It's basically my Macho Man Randy Savage impression.)
I'm sad I never got to play him in anything.
|
For those who want their Fighters to have more 'magical' powers...Ha! The Wizard! Ashton still makes me do the voice for him sometimes. (It's basically my Macho Man Randy Savage impression.)
I'm sad I never got to play him in anything.
Ah, I remember the glories. This thread bumped up the pageviews of "The Wizard, Pt. VI" by something like 20% in ONE DAY. It's been online for two years now. That's just delicious.
Hey, Ben- Wizard Comix: The Biz? With The Ugly and Xa? I think the masses are ready.
I think the problem is that many of us DMs want plausibility, not realism. Yes, a fall from several hundred feet should leave a mark if you don't have a way, magical or not, to protect you from the sudden stop at the end. The fighter does have ways to deal with that, one of which is hit points. If the fighter brought his ring of feather fall then he'd be ok.
We also expect plausibility with magic. When someone casts a fireball we don't expect icicles to fall from the ceiling. We do expect there to be a large ball of fire that could ignite combustibles. If the wizard changes the fireball to an iceball, I don't know of any DMs that will allow the new iceball to ignite combustibles.
That's the plausibility we seek. There is an internal consistency with the game and the physics of the world the characters live in. I understand your point and I have seen what you are referring to but it's more often than not a perception difference between the players and the DM. It's nothing a little talk can't fix.
I think the problem is that many of us DMs want plausibility, not realism. Yes, a fall from several hundred feet should leave a mark if you don't have a way, magical or not, to protect you from the sudden stop at the end. The fighter does have ways to deal with that, one of which is hit points. If the fighter brought his ring of feather fall then he'd be ok.
We also expect plausibility with magic. When someone casts a fireball we don't expect icicles to fall from the ceiling. We do expect there to be a large ball of fire that could ignite combustibles. If the wizard changes the fireball to an iceball, I don't know of any DMs that will allow the new iceball to ignite combustibles.
There's a twofold flaw in your argument:
1. The rules give the fighter enough hp to survive the fall in most cases, even without the ring. But a lot of DMs want kill him anyway, in the name of plausibility, so they advocate changing the rules to the detriment of the fighter.
2. The rules do not support a fireball that ignites combustibles. If you want to rule that it makes things catch on fire, so be it, but now you're changing the rules to the advantage of the arcanist.
And that always seems to be how it turns out. See the problem?
old school falling damage:
10' fall = 1d6
20' fall = 1d6+2d6=3d6
30' fall = 1d6+2d6+3d6=6d6
40' fall = 1d6+2d6+3d6+6d6=12d6
60' fall = 1d6+2d6+3d6+6d6+12d6=24d6
70' fall = 1d6+2d6+3d6+6d6+12d6+24d6=48d6
and so on.......geometric progression I think it is called,
i think we assumed terminal velocity at 100 feet just for the hell of it unless the math major was around to crunch the physics...
made it worth it to entangle the colossal dragon dive bombing the cloud castle and waiting for the sound of the BOOM and the small mushroom cloud to appear......
also makes that monk power of falling so far while in reach of a wall a lot more interesting.....
also requiring a fortitude save for every increment of massive damage taken by a single event (blow,fall,zap,...etc) we defined massive damage as 60 or more hp of damage from one shot, so 120 hp of damage would require 2 saves, 180 hp...3 saves.....fortitude saves of course, at which the fighter is best.....
ramblings of an old geezer......
2. The rules do not support a fireball that ignites combustibles. If you want to rule that it makes things catch on fire, so be it, but now you're changing the rules to the advantage of the arcanist.
They don't? In my PF core book, the fireball says it can ignite combustibles. And there's a bit on catching fire in the Environment section (chapter 13). I don't see a change in favor of the arcanist...
Personally, i prefer a sense of realism in my games - as much as taking into account that it's a world where magic exists - and as such, i rule that there's no cap on falling damage.Because in real life when you fall your speed just keeps increasing, it's not like there's a thing called terminal velocity or anything...
No matter the object, as long as there is air resistance your will eventually stop speeding up. As long as your going the same speed, your change in speed when you hit the ground will be the same, meaning the force of hitting the ground will be the same.
The game devolves just saved you the time of going through the physics equations and assumed every PC's terminal velocity occurs after falling for 200 ft.
Actually, IIRC you're considered to fall 500ft. in the first round and 2000ft. the second round.
If you achieved terminal velocity after 200ft. your distance fallen wouldn't increase.
In response to the folks who posted that there are real world examples of people who have survived horrendously long falls, there is a scientific term to capture that phenomenon. It's called statistically insignificant. Sure it could and does happen every few years. The chances of it happening are so tiny they can't be measured, and shouldn't be considered in any rational discussion of the risks of falling. More than 99.99% of the time, a fall of 200' or more results in death. Actually, falls of even 20 or 30 feet are very frequently fatal. Additionally, there is no correlation whatsoever between level of fitness/toughness and ability to survive a fall. The laws of gravity play no favorites.
The problem many people have with the falling rules is that it reverses that probability for any character with relatively high hit points. It doesn't just distort reality, it stands it on it's head. It pulls down its metaphorical pants and moons reality. There is an almost certainty that anyone with 120 current hit points or more will survive a 200' fall, and on average a character with 80 hit points will. Make it only 100', and anyone with 60 or more hit points is almost certain to survive, and anyone with 40 probably will. Make it 50' (still almost universally fatal in real life) and you only need 30 hit points to almost be guaranteed of surviving, and someone with 20 hit points walks away most of the time. Make it 30' and the paltry 3d6 damage doesn't even scare anyone with 19 hit points or more, and any character with 11 or more hit points has the odds in their favor.
In other words, this isn't just about the much-maligned fighter, who many people think needs a helping hand (he doesn't). Virtually every character can survive ludicrous falls much of the time, without magical assistance.
My problem is less when this happens accidentally or as the result of an enemy's action. I dislike insta-kills, and have no problem with giving falling characters multiple chances to break their fall, etc. My problem is the RAW allows characters to abuse it by doing stupid stuff like just stepping off cliffs or jumping out of windows or off dragon backs because they know they can take the damage. That kind of crap just kills any suspension of disbelief. And don't tell me players would never do that. We all know many that would.
All I can say on behalf of my fellow cry-baby GMs is don't try it in my game or we won't be the ones crying.
In other words, this isn't just about the much-maligned fighter, who many people think needs a helping hand (he doesn't). Virtually every character can survive ludicrous falls much of the time, without magical assistance.
My problem is less when this happens accidentally or as the result of an enemy's action. I dislike insta-kills, and have no problem with giving falling characters multiple chances to break their fall, etc. My problem is the RAW allows characters to abuse it by doing stupid stuff like just stepping off cliffs or jumping out of windows or off dragon backs because they know they can take the damage. That kind of crap just kills any suspension of disbelief. And don't tell me players would never do that. We all know many that would.
All I can say on behalf of my fellow cry-baby GMs is don't try it in my game or we won't be the ones crying.
So its ok for the [insert character with high hitpoints here] to be able to be stabed 20 times successfully with a dagger and live, but falling 100ft and living is absurd and breaks the suspension of disbalief?
The characters know that it's going to hurt, they are going to get stabbed, but they also know they can probably take the damage despite the fact that no real person (with at most a couple hd) could ever survive that.
High level characters are beyond human capability as we know it. Such things exist in nature. For instance, ever see an ant fall from a countertop and scurry away seemingly uninjured? I have, and compared to it's size that fall is HUGE. But the ant is dense as heck and can survive it. Same thing goes for high HP characters. Their ability is absurdly past that which exists in our 'normal' world that the normal rules dont apply to them (like its a bad idea to step off that flying dragons back).
They don't? In my PF core book, the fireball says it can ignite combustibles. And there's a bit on catching fire in the Environment section (chapter 13). I don't see a change in favor of the arcanist...
Sorry, I need to write more precisely. The fireball rules say, "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area." That's fine: we're looking at paper, etc.
However, the rules for catching on fire specifically state: "Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash." If your fireballs catch people on fire, you ARE changing the rules directly, in favor of the arcanists.
All I can say on behalf of my fellow cry-baby GMs is don't try it in my game or we won't be the ones crying.
I don't mind you calling me a crybaby, but you could at least get your own avatar.
Whoa that is freaky is like watching a cat attack a mirror.
I don't have this issue as I run my games a bit more cinematically. Its way better if a player is killed by a horde of marauding anything than to die because they got a STAF infection.
All I can say on behalf of my fellow cry-baby GMs is don't try it in my game or we won't be the ones crying.I don't mind you calling me a crybaby, but you could at least get your own avatar.
There actually used to be quite a few people using this avatar a few years ago, when I was first active on these boards. Then I dropped off for a couple of years (out of the country, bad Internet connection in Africa). Just picked it up again a few months ago.
I don't mind sharing the avatar. The world can never have too many graying, beer-swilling satyrs. :)
There actually used to be quite a few people using this avatar a few years ago, when I was first active on these boards.
Wow -- that must have been some time ago indeed -- I've consistently been pretty much the only one since 2006. Welcome back, pappy.
Freaking weird.
In other words, this isn't just about the much-maligned fighter, who many people think needs a helping hand (he doesn't). Virtually every character can survive ludicrous falls much of the time, without magical assistance.
My problem is less when this happens accidentally or as the result of an enemy's action. I dislike insta-kills, and have no problem with giving falling characters multiple chances to break their fall, etc. My problem is the RAW allows characters to abuse it by doing stupid stuff like just stepping off cliffs or jumping out of windows or off dragon backs because they know they can take the damage. That kind of crap just kills any suspension of disbelief. And don't tell me players would never do that. We all know many that would.
All I can say on behalf of my fellow cry-baby GMs is don't try it in my game or we won't be the ones crying.
So its ok for the [insert character with high hitpoints here] to be able to be stabed 20 times successfully with a dagger and live, but falling 100ft and living is absurd and breaks the suspension of disbalief?
The characters know that it's going to hurt, they are going to get stabbed, but they also know they can probably take the damage despite the fact that no real person (with at most a couple hd) could ever survive that.
High level characters are beyond human capability as we know it. Such things exist in nature. For instance, ever see an ant fall from a countertop and scurry away seemingly uninjured? I have, and compared to it's size that fall is HUGE. But the ant is dense as heck and can survive it. Same thing goes for high HP characters. Their ability is absurdly past that which exists in our 'normal' world that the normal rules dont apply to them (like its a bad idea to step off that flying...
I said on the other thread that everybody's suspension of disbelief is theatened by different things. The whole combat system is so unrealistic and abstract (and always has been) that I basically try not to think about it. But the falling (and especially the deliberately jumping) thing bugs me. YMMV. Probably there are things that bother you that I have no problem with. My point in the other thread was that if, as a group, something bothers you and is a distraction from your immersion, houserule and change it, which we do for massive falls.
The deliberately stepping through the blade barrier thing does bother me sometimes, too, but I guess I don't see that as quite as "certain death" as a 200' fall, perhaps because there is no such thing as a blade barrier in the real world, unless you count something like an airplane propeller or helicopter rotor, which is a bit different, but definitely certain death if you get pushed/fall through. I never visualized blade barrier as being quite that lethal, just a whirl of blades some of which hit something that passes through and some of which don't.
Regarding the ant, your argument makes sense to me, if you accept the fact that the characters are essentially no longer human (as dense as an ant - by the way I'm not a physicist by any stretch, but I'm not sure density is why they aren't injured, but I could very easily be wrong). I don't really accept that in my game, and don't really want to play that way. I like to think of my characters as very skilled, powerful humans (or dwarves. elves, etc.) not superhumans. I've played and enjoyed musclebound guy in tights games, but don't really want to do so in my fantasy RPG.
I like to think of my characters as very skilled, powerful humans (or dwarves. elves, etc.) not superhumans. I've played and enjoyed musclebound guy in tights games, but don't really want to do so in my fantasy RPG.
No need, when there exists an infinite number of ways to rationalize their survival without resorting to superpowers... as I demonstrated upthread.
I would suggest if you are not in favor of non-spellcasters being larger than life "super"-heroes (by superhero I mean something more akin to Captain American and not Superman), then I would suggest removing all non-spellcasting PC classes. Require all non-spellcasters to be commoners, maybe warrior if you are feeling really generous. That is more likely to give you the type of feel you want from the game. Mundane heroes trying their hardest to stay alive against great odds. You make that commoner get all the way to 20th level, now that will be impressive.
By superhero I mean something more akin to Captain American and not Superman.
Yeah, I'm fine with the Cap. In fact, when there are no pictures, I can imagine a lot of superman stuff getting pulled off by Cpt. America or Batman without too much trouble -- you just need to expand the surroundings a bit.
They don't? In my PF core book, the fireball says it can ignite combustibles. And there's a bit on catching fire in the Environment section (chapter 13). I don't see a change in favor of the arcanist...Sorry, I need to write more precisely. The fireball rules say, "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area." That's fine: we're looking at paper, etc.
However, the rules for catching on fire specifically state: "Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash." If your fireballs catch people on fire, you ARE changing the rules directly, in favor of the arcanists.
I didn't say people catching on fire. I intentionally mentioned only combustibles.
Ah, the old falling issue rears its head once again.
Why is it that falling is always the thing that gets brought up? What about having a 2-ton block of stone falling on top of you (12d6 damage or thereabouts), or being critically hit with a rune giant's greatsword (with its 20-foot blade). That happended to a player's character and he was barely scratched.
At what stage is believability superceded by fantasy? When the PC is 5th level, 10th level, 20th level, 50th level? I'm sorry, but if a 10th level fighter can kill a dire bear or hill giant in single combat you can have him survive a 100 foot fall.
Also remember that Pathfinder and 3.5 regularly break the laws of physics. You could say that a dragon flies because of the magic inherent in its blood, but what about a hill giant? Any human that tall and big would collapse under his or her own weight unless they were structurally very different from humans.
Maybe adventurers are structurally different from normal humanoids? Maybe they survive those great falls because the fates have something truly miraculous in store for them.
It's not always falling, there's also lava :3
It's not always falling, there's also lava :3
Yeah, but falling was brought up first. :)
I wish I knew, but I guess some DMs just find it more reasonable to be punched by giants and bitten by Dragons and surviving than it is to fall off a cliff.
I wish I knew, but I guess some DMs just find it more reasonable to be punched by giants and bitten by Dragons and surviving than it is to fall off a cliff.
That's because in many cases it is. Hear me out. A "hit" in D&D doesn't necessarily mean the PC has been punctured in the vitals with the dragon's fangs or had bones crushed by the giant. It could just mean that the attack imparted enough energy to be felt through the PC's shield or armor while the body remains pretty much intact and, in the main, healthy. The combat system is sufficiently abstract, with hit points encompassing more than mere bodily injury, that any wide range of results are covered by a hit.
Now, because hit points do represent a variety of abstracted factors keeping the PC from kicking the bucket, you certainly could say, as at least one other post has, that a survivable level of damage indicates tumbling down a steep slope rather than pancaking on a flat surface. Of course, that may not fit all situations. It may not even fit a majority of cases, vertical drops being a staple of D&D-genre fantasy terrain obstacles.
I kind of put the falling thing into the category of people who just haven't really though things through
Game balance wise fighters have very few resources to them - no familiars, no class features, no bloodlines, no church support. They do have have feats, a few skill points, and higher then average hit points. Is it realistic? Not even a little bit. But if you start taking away one of there few resources - enough HP to live when most other people would be dead - what are you giving them to help them keep up?
'Realism' wise, has the ever come up? I mean has anyone who goes with the falling damage RAW ever had a problem with it? Ever? I'm not saying they haven't but I never have, nor have I meet a person who has. And if you are making house rules over something that has never been a problem in a game you have been in or at least the people they play with have been in seems at best silly. "Hey I think that if we use this rule that neither I nor anyone in the game have never seen come up in game as a problem the way it's written will just mess up the whole game!"
What is this going to do? A Fighter who just made this jump is going to be wounded, and will take weeks to heal or use up spells and/or magic items to heal. It's not like they can do it all day, it's a once in a great while I can do this and be horribly wounded IF I haven't taken any other wounds and don't take any others.
|
Who says DM's don't inject realism into their spell casters either.
Summoning creatures displace air, causing a slight pressure wave when done, illusions don't. This can be used to tip people off sometimes. It may also cause an audible sound because of the pressure wave. Teleporting does this as well, so teleporting into a place may actually give you away to the enemy because of the noise it makes.
Explosions of fire can cause massive collateral damage, can send out concussion waves, and if you're feeling particulalry nasty can burn up all the air in a room and suffocate people. Try casting fire or electricity based spells in a sewer or mine shaft with gas build up and watch how fast your day is ruined.
Electricity affects those wearing mettle more than those not. Cast electricity effects into areas surrounded by water and theres a really good chance EVERYONE gets hit.
Creating walls of iron and stone etc means the material has come from somewhere. Is this from the current plane of existance or are you stealing it from elsewhere. How does this affect the game world? Is someone going to come looking for you because of this?
Acid can drip from the targets and dissolve certain areas of the ground/wall/ship your travelling on. High level acid spells actually set fire to wood and may cause fits of coughing due to the noxious fumes.
Summoning monsters from planes of existance that are harmful to humans may actually bring some of that harmful atmosphere with them and cause the sickoned condition if you're too close.
These are all things I have brought into games at times, or my players have used. This level of "realism" helps to let players think outside the constraints of the rules as written to tackle problems in a unique way.
In this same way we can introduce certain elements of realism to make things more interesting for non casters to try stuff.
Drop a really large landfall on something and its not going to get up too soon. (if ever). There's more than just crushing damage here, theres suffocation and choking from dust, possible blinding from dust and just plain being pinned.
I guess it comes down to making sure that you make YOUR world as realisitic as YOU want then keep it consistant. This is what leads to Verisimiltude and allows players more freedom in their problem solving.
The joy of a fantasy setting is to play with the fantastic elements introduced, mcuk around with how these might interract with real world physics then run with the concept. In other words it is a mental exercise for those inclined.
Alternatively you could just run with it as a game and be done. Either way is likely to be quite fun.
|
|
Eh... by the time you can survive 20d6 (avg 70 hp damage) on a consistent basis you are likely 8-10th level and has a 24-26 strength. He can lift 1400-1800 lbs off the ground... that's 400-800 lbs over the world record. It only gets better from there. They are clearly super human.
These guys have more in common with the hulk than normal people so why not the resilience of the hulk?
Who says DM's don't inject realism into their spell casters either.
Summoning creatures displace air, causing a slight pressure wave when done, illusions don't. This can be used to tip people off sometimes. It may also cause an audible sound because of the pressure wave. Teleporting does this as well, so teleporting into a place may actually give you away to the enemy because of the noise it makes.
Explosions of fire can cause massive collateral damage, can send out concussion waves, and if you're feeling particulalry nasty can burn up all the air in a room and suffocate people. Try casting fire or electricity based spells in a sewer or mine shaft with gas build up and watch how fast your day is ruined.
Electricity affects those wearing mettle more than those not. Cast electricity effects into areas surrounded by water and theres a really good chance EVERYONE gets hit.
Creating walls of iron and stone etc means the material has come from somewhere. Is this from the current plane of existance or are you stealing it from elsewhere. How does this affect the game world? Is someone going to come looking for you because of this?
Acid can drip from the targets and dissolve certain areas of the ground/wall/ship your travelling on. High level acid spells actually set fire to wood and may cause fits of coughing due to the noxious fumes.
Summoning monsters from planes of existance that are harmful to humans may actually bring some of that harmful atmosphere with them and cause the sickoned condition if you're too close.
These are all things I have brought into games at times, or my players have used. This level of "realism" helps to let players think outside the constraints of the rules as written to tackle problems in a unique way.
In this same way we can introduce certain elements of realism to make things more interesting for non casters to try stuff.
Drop a really large landfall on something and its not going to get up too soon. (if ever). There's more than just crushing damage here, theres...
I didn't say that 'realism' wasn't added to the magic, I said that the only time 'realism' was added was to nerf the fighters. And your post shows a good example of that. Do you ever give your fighter's chances to maim the enemy? Slash off limbs, break arms? Do you roll the chance that they'll slash out the wizard's eyes? Do you give your fighter the chance to crush a wizard under his weight? Most don't. For most who do this it's all in favor of the magic.
|
|
Actually, if you look at all the examples I gave there, they are to make the wizards far more careful about what they do and when they do it. The metal example sucks for fighters admittedly, but then I once used the idea of metal conduction to have elcetricity based spells earth out in a complex instead of travelling to their intended target. Forced my casters to rethink their strategy (the building used natural conduciton and static charges to power its magical wards. When the players discovered why ther magic was behaving wiedly they thought it was great)
There are already rules for maiming, blinding etc (they are feaats) and death by massive damage. I occasionally throw in interesting effects for critical fumbles on saves (twisted ankle or broken limb which require restoration to recover from or long term care instead, maybe a failed caster check sets off the wrong spell or drops the intended spell in the wrong area). Those are very rare though.
You need to be careful of adding too much detail into the game or it bogs down, and what's more, becomes unbalanced.
The other thing that can make a casters day really suck is environmetnal conditions. High winds can ruin incantations as they can destroy both auditory and verbal queues to make casting work (spellcraft checks please). Low visibilty effects such as fog/smoke/dust tend to reduce the caster to "Gods I hope nothing comes at us or I'm going to have to cast while they can hit back". Unstable ground (if its hard to balance because teh rocks are slippery or earht is shaking, the caster needs to make accrobatic hecks too or maybe a caster check to stay focused while still balancing on the slippery ground)
All of these things are catered for in the rules, it just comes down to how much a person wants injected into their game. If everyone knows beforehand that there's going to be some realism, then its not an issue. And you can just as easily "Nerf" the casters as you can the fighters. They have feats that allow them past them, but then the fighty types do as well.
Me personally, I tend to go for "Cinematic realism" in most of my games. If it sounds like it would look cool in a movie, then you've got a shot at pulling it off in my games. It's why we play after all.
Cheers
Actually, if you look at all the examples I gave there, they are to make the wizards far more careful about what they do and when they do it. The metal example sucks for fighters admittedly, but then I once used the idea of metal conduction to have elcetricity based spells earth out in a complex instead of travelling to their intended target. Forced my casters to rethink their strategy (the building used natural conduciton and static charges to power its magical wards. When the players discovered why ther magic was behaving wiedly they thought it was great)
There are already rules for maiming, blinding etc (they are feaats) and death by massive damage. I occasionally throw in interesting effects for critical fumbles on saves (twisted ankle or broken limb which require restoration to recover from or long term care instead, maybe a failed caster check sets off the wrong spell or drops the intended spell in the wrong area). Those are very rare though.
You need to be careful of adding too much detail into the game or it bogs down, and what's more, becomes unbalanced.
The other thing that can make a casters day really suck is environmetnal conditions. High winds can ruin incantations as they can destroy both auditory and verbal queues to make casting work (spellcraft checks please). Low visibilty effects such as fog/smoke/dust tend to reduce the caster to "Gods I hope nothing comes at us or I'm going to have to cast while they can hit back". Unstable ground (if its hard to balance because teh rocks are slippery or earht is shaking, the caster needs to make accrobatic hecks too or maybe a caster check to stay focused while still balancing on the slippery ground)
All of these things are catered for in the rules, it just comes down to how much a person wants injected into their game. If everyone knows beforehand that there's going to be some realism, then its not an issue. And you can just as easily "Nerf" the casters as you can the fighters. They have feats that allow them past them, but then the fighty...
Yeah I know... >< well I feel that I've let out my rant. so I'll go enjoy a fun game of fantasy. Your rules actually sound pretty awesome and I'd love to play in a game where the environment adds a new level of integration.
Half the reason I enjoy playing martial characters is that they surpass realism pretty quickly. Anything past level 6-ish is well beyond anything the real world has ever seen IMO. That holds true matter the class.
It is really just a matter of personal play style, but I love the thought of my fighter climbing out of his crater and dusting himself off for the rest of the fight.
I've just thought of a realistic encounter where a griffon carrying a really big magnet is as terrifying as a tarrasque to fighters
|
I'm fine with a GM making any house rules he wants. I just want to know what they are in advance.
The rules of the game tell me my 15th level fighter has a great chance of surviving a fall from 10,000 feet, wrestling a triceratops to the ground, and thrusting his arm into lava to grab a magic ring some idiot just tossed in there. There are rules for all those things, and I make character decisions based on the observable reality my character was born in, lived with, and interacts with. They aren't things I'd ever assume a normal person can do, but by 15th level my fighter, naked and with no magic, isn't a normal person. He's a legendary hero.
If a GM decides that lava instantly sears off anything that touches it, falls over 30 feet deal Con damage, or Huge creatures are immune to combat maneuvers from anything two sizes smaller than them, I'm fine with that. But if I'm not told the rules of the game have changed before it comes up in play, I consider the GM to be doing a terrible job at best, and cheating at worst.
The main issue with reality is this: it is reasonable for a player to expect the game to run as written, even if that's not realistic, because the game clearly isn't trying to replicate realism. If the GM wants to make sure people not using magic never feel more capable/resilient/powerful than Olympic athletes, I need to know that when I make my character.
I'd like to add that the rules of the game are how reality works for the characters. Sure, in our world a fall from 100 feet most likely means death but in the Pathfinder worlds it may not to powerful characters. Note that most people will still fie from those falls. It's only the ones have conditioned themselves to take hits from some of the most dangerous beings in the universe. That's how the physics of Golarian work. There are planes where these rules may change.
Most of the rules should probably be viewed from the level 1-2 commoner point of view instead of the high level character who is fighting dragons point of view. A sword is lethal to most people. A fall can be lethal from 20 feet. High level characters are not the norm. It isn't realistic for a fighter to be able to craft a +5 flaming wounding defending bane vs dragons greatsword yet he can do it without any ability to cast spells.
It's not about realism, it's about plausibility in the world that the characters live.
When "plausability" and "myth, legend, and heroism" clash, the latter group should always win. It's why we're playing D&D and not actually jumping off 200 foot cliffs.
As for "statistically insignificant," I'm pretty sure that's the definition of everything heroes do.
Stepping through a blade barrier doesn't bother me in the slightest. How often did Conan shrug off the evil enchantments and spells of foul wizards? Hell, the barbarian was crucified and lived to talk about it.
The big problem is that people look at fighters and see "Level 1," regardless of what level the fighter is. They look at the wizard and see "level 20" even if the wizard is just an apprentice.
The problem with your argument is that the whole point of Spellcasters is to break the laws of reality, while the point of the martial classes is to be awesome within laws of reality.
I am such a DM who 'cries for realism,' but I actually have house rules in place to reduce the potential of spellcasters in favor of balancing the game more evenly. So what if I don't allow Fighters or Barbarians to jump out of a flying castle thousands of feet above ground and live? I wouldn't let a spellcaster survive a drop like that either. The only instance where either of them would survive would be with a Feather Fall spell. The only difference between the two is that a fighter can't cast the spell. I don't let spellcasters break basic laws of reality without spells any more than I let Fighters, Barbarians, or Cavaliers.
I'm not nerfing Fighters and Barbarians by stopping them from doing stupid crap that breaks immersion; they're still awesome at what they do. It's just that breaking the laws of reality isn't what they do.
This (pure gold, btw), +1.
A bit late, I apologize, but I'm a GM and never have I cried about "realism".
....My PLAYERS on the other hand.....
I can recall about six different players that have all cried about "realism" not being in D&D. What's sad, is that one player is an avid "LotR" fan.
I remember when he first complained about it. There was a five minute conversation that had just about all the table looking at him like he was on fire or something.
Well then, I believe you should have a look at E6, mention of it has been floating around on these forums somewhere. But from what I understand it has that level of realism of LotR. Basically it stops level progression at 6, keeping the realism and the challenge, but the players can still advance through feats.