Ratfolk Tailblade Question

[Reik483]

Is a Ratfolk Tailblade a manufactured weapon that can you can apply the feats and benefits for natural attacks towards, or is it a natural weapon?

My best interpretation is that Tailblades are manufactured weapons that you can apply natural attack benefits to. If they're manufactured weapons and not natural weapons, would a Ratfolk Tailblade not be prohibited from receiving the Swashbuckler Precise Strike bonus damage, assuming the Ratfolk had the Slashing Grace feat? "Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt."

Because a Tailblade attack is a manufactured weapon attack, I think it would not be excluded by the natural weapon section in parenthesis?

[thistledown]

It is a manufactured weapon, yes.

[MichaelCullen]

You would be able to use Precise Stike bonus because it is a light manufactured weapon.

It had the additional bonus of being able to apply feats or effects appropriate to natural attacks to tail attacks made with a tailblade.

It has the additional downside that "If used as part of a full attack action, attacks with a tailblade are considered secondary attacks." Sonif used as part of a full attack it takes a -5 to hit.

[Rylden]

Just to go further in this line of questioning, Precise Strike states you do not gain the bonus damage if you attack with a weapon in your "Other hand". As its not calling for a "off-hand" would attacking with your mainhand, and your tailblade remove the bonus damage?

[SlimGauge]

My confusion stems from the last line of the tailblade entry.

Tailblade wrote:

"If used as part of a full attack action, attacks with a tailblade are considered secondary attacks."

In general, to attack with more than one weapon one needs to use a full attack action. The term "secondary attack" is not used for off-hand manufactured weapon attacks, but is used for natural attacks.

It may be that a ratfolk tailblade is a corner case of being both a natural attack and a manufactured weapon, but that raises all sorts of contradictions.

[Ravingdork]

It sure reads like a natural attack to me. It even describes it as a tail attack, not a tail blade attack.

[Rylden]

If full attack action, tailblades count as Natural attacks due to being secondary attacks does that mean it wouldn't gain the bonus damage from Precise strike as it doesn't work with Natural Attacks?

[Reik483]

Rylden wrote:

Just to go further in this line of questioning, Precise Strike states you do not gain the bonus damage if you attack with a weapon in your "Other hand". As its not calling for a "off-hand" would attacking with your mainhand, and your tailblade remove the bonus damage?

"Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler."

Slashing Grace

"Benefit: Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied."

1. Is the Tailblade wielded "one-handed"? I assume the two choices are wielding it one-handed or two-handed and since you don't add 1.5x Strength with it you're technically wielding it one-handed.

2. Both Precise Strike and Slashing Grace refer to not attacking with the other hand. Precise Strike specifically says "other hand" and Slashing Grace mentions "fighting with two weapons". The Two-Weapon Fighting feat also uses the language "fighting with two weapons" so I assume any time you aren't incurring the penalties for fighting with two weapons you qualify for Slashing Grace. I think it's fair to safe that these restrictions are meant to be equivalent: not attacking with the other hand, other hand is not occupied by a shield or other obejct.

[Ravingdork]

Pretty sure it's treated as a natural weapon, not a manufactured weapon. I researched the forums for more clarification on the matter, and that seems to be the prevailing opinion.

[Reik483]

Ravingdork wrote:

Pretty sure it's treated as a natural weapon, not a manufactured weapon. I researched the forums for more clarification on the matter, and that seems to be the prevailing opinion.

So you can take the feat Improved Natural Attack: Tail to increase the damage it does?

Also, you can buy a cold iron ratfolk tailblade and use the eldritch claws feat to make it also bypass silver DR?

[SlimGauge]

Reik483 wrote:

So you can take the feat Improved Natural Attack: Tail to increase the damage it does?

Looks like it, as it says

Tailblade wrote:

Ratfolk are considered proficient with such attacks and can apply feats or effects appropriate to natural attacks to tail attacks made with a tailblade.

INA: (tailblade) seems appropriate.

Reik483 wrote:

Also, you can buy a cold iron ratfolk tailblade and use the eldritch claws feat to make it also bypass silver DR?

I don't think so. While the tailblade is treated as a natural attack, it does not seem to be a natural weapon. I know, that's a fine pedantic distinction, but that's what I think.

[Reik483]

SlimGauge wrote:

Reik483 wrote:

So you can take the feat Improved Natural Attack: Tail to increase the damage it does?

Looks like it, as it says

Tailblade wrote:

Ratfolk are considered proficient with such attacks and can apply feats or effects appropriate to natural attacks to tail attacks made with a tailblade.

INA: (tailblade) seems appropriate.

Reik483 wrote:

Also, you can buy a cold iron ratfolk tailblade and use the eldritch claws feat to make it also bypass silver DR?

I don't think so. While the tailblade is treated as a natural attack, it does not seem to be a natural weapon. I know, that's a fine pedantic distinction, but that's what I think.

I also think the intent is for it to be a manufactured weapon that uses the natural attack rules, which would allow you to apply Slashing Grace and Swashbuckler benefits to it because those specify no natural weapons.

[Ravingdork]

So basically, the best of both world in any given situation?

Can you support that interpretation in the rules though?

[Rylden]

@Reik so you gain the all the positive sides of natural weapons and manufactured weapons but no draw back. Seems questionable.

[Reik483]

You wouldn't gain any benefits of a natural weapon, only a natural attack. Its an odd hybrid of a natural attack with a manufactured weapon.

[Squiggit]

Rylden wrote:

@Reik so you gain the all the positive sides of natural weapons and manufactured weapons but no draw back. Seems questionable.

Well, they attack as secondary natural weapons, which is a pretty massive drawback. Atrocious, really.

Ravingdork wrote:

Can you support that interpretation in the rules though?

It seems sort of self evident? They're on the weapons table but they have a clause that lets them benefit from feats and effects that modify natural weapons.

Which part is the hangup?

[graystone]

Squiggit wrote:

Rylden wrote:

@Reik so you gain the all the positive sides of natural weapons and manufactured weapons but no draw back. Seems questionable.

Well, they attack as secondary natural weapons, which is a pretty massive drawback. Atrocious, really.

If the ratfolk picks up sharpclaw then they can take the multiattack feat to make the secondary attack much less atrocious.

[Jurassic Pratt]

Multiattack is a monster feat and is thus typically not allowed for PCs.

So really its still pretty bad.

[Ravingdork]

I was just hoping you could provide more support for the interpretation that you basically treat them as both natural weapons or manufactured weapons, whichever is more beneficial.

I'm not seeing where the rules even imply that.

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Rylden wrote:

@Reik so you gain the all the positive sides of natural weapons and manufactured weapons but no draw back. Seems questionable.

Well, they attack as secondary natural weapons, which is a pretty massive drawback. Atrocious, really. Multiattack is a monster feat and is thus typically not allowed for PCs.

So really its still pretty bad.

Not quite right. It's only a secondary attack when you make a full attack action. If you were to attack with just the tail blade, it would be treated as a primary attack. What's more, a strict reading of the rules seems to indicate you add your full Strength modifier, rather than half, despite it being a secondary attack.

I suspect it's just bad writing/editing. The designers probably meant to say it's a primary attack that becomes secondary when combined with more traditional manufactured weapon attacks.

[Squiggit]

Multiattack helps if you're allowed to take it, but it's still not all that impressive, even with the most liberal interpretation.

Ravingdork wrote:

I was just hoping you could provide more support for the interpretation that you basically treat them as both natural weapons or manufactured weapons, whichever is more beneficial.

I'm not seeing where the rules even imply that.

Well it's not a matter of 'whichever is more beneficial'. It's manufactured weapon. Unequivocally so. It fits the literal definition and has an entry on a weapon's table with its own damage, cost, weight and etc.

It just also has a clause that lets you apply 'feats and effects' appropriate to natural attacks... and also follows an attack routine like one.

It actually functions in the worst way possible in a few facets (like not getting 1.5x strength if you have no natural attacks and not gaining extra attacks with high BAB).