I'm mulling over this class and am trying to get a handle on how the familiar's ability to acquire new spells is intended to function. Perhaps this has been addressed before and I missed it. If so, my apologies and a helpful link would be appreciated.
Familiar Teaching Familiar: A witch’s familiar can learn spells from another witch’s familiar. To accomplish this, the familiars must spend one hour per level of the spell being taught in communion with one another. At the end of this time, the witch whose familiar is learning a spell must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the familiar has learned the spell and the witch may utilize it the next time she prepares spells.
Is there any reason that two familiars with different patron spells couldn't teach each other those spells?
Learn from a Scroll: A witch can use a scroll to teach her familiar a new spell. This process takes 1 hour per level of the spell to be learned, during which time the scroll is burned and its ashes used to create a special brew or powder that is consumed by the familiar.
Is there some reason why the witch couldn't feed a powdered scroll containing a spell from a different spell list than the witch's? The obvious reason would appear to be the following sentence:
A witch casts arcane spells drawn from the witch spell list.
That'd seems pretty straightforward except that, as written, it would also mean that the witch couldn't cast those patron spells that don't appear on the Witch's spell list; which certainly can't be right.
Thoughts?
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Patron spells are not meant to be taught to other familiars. Think of it like (as a familiar) you are working under a new witch and whoever your grand benefactor (Be is a god, force of nature, a demon lord whatever) allows you certain to share certain patron spells with your witch based on his powers. That patron wouldn't exactly be keen on you sharing your knowledge with other familiars who are not working for the same guy.
Think of it like a CIA agent sharing info with a KGB operative, he has good reason to go rogue and become a traitor.
By RAW, most (There are some exceptions, like Phantasmal Killer) of the patron spells are not on the witch list and mechanically this is what prevents you from teaching others.
This all really stems from the fact that the Patron feature was really tacked on at the last minute without a lot of development in terms of what it means or having it actually MEAN anything other than bonus spells. There is so much more that could have done with this part that I am really at a loss for why paizo handled it this way except for the fact that they were running out of time and just threw it together. The patron feature could have (And IMO should have been) been fleshed out with another 1-2 pages and given the proper crunch that it thematically deserves. Instead we got a 1 paragraph section detailing that witches are able to cast spells because they made some pact at some point with somebody and that's it.
What you say may be true. Is there anything official that I missed which supports that viewpoint?
Yes and no, its written into the class:
Adding Spells to a Witch’s Familiar
Witches can add new spells to their familiars through several methods.
A witch can only add spells to her familiar if those spells belong to the witch’s spell list.
Spells Gained at a New Level: A witch’s familiar learns a certain amount of lore and magic as the witch adventures. Whenever a witch gains a level, she may add two spells from the witch spell list to her familiar. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast.
Familiar Teaching Familiar: A witch’s familiar can learn spells from another witch’s familiar. To accomplish this, the familiars must spend one hour per level of the spell being taught in communion with one another. At the end of this time, the witch whose familiar is learning a spell must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the familiar has learned the spell and the witch may utilize it the next time she prepares spells. If the check fails, the familiar has failed to learn the spell and cannot try to learn that spell again until the witch has gained another rank in Spellcraft. Most witches require a spell of equal or greater level in return for this service. If a familiar belongs to a witch that has died, it only retains its knowledge of spells for 24 hours, during which time it is possible to coerce or bribe the familiar into teaching its spells to another, subject to GM discretion.
Learn from a Scroll: A witch can use a scroll to teach her familiar a new spell. This process takes 1 hour per level of the spell to be learned, during which time the scroll is burned and its ashes used to create a special brew or powder that is consumed by the familiar. This process destroys the scroll. At the end of this time, the witch must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check fails, the process went awry in some way and the spell is not learned, although the scroll is still consumed.
The patron spells added to your spells list at the indicatet levels, the way the ability is written you can´t learn the spell early from another witch or use a spell trigger item.
Patron Spells
At 1st level, when a witch gains her familiar, she must also select a patron. This patron is a vague and mysterious force, granting the witch power for reasons that she might not entirely understand. While these forces need not be named, they typically hold influence over one of the following forces.
At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s patron adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known . These spells are also automatically added to the list of spells stored by the familiar. Spells marked with an asterisk (*) are new in the Advanced Player's Guide. The spells gained depend upon the patron chosen. Each patron is listed by its theme. Its actual name is up to the GM and the witch to decide.
The wording " adding to a witch list of spells known" is weird but at least the intention is rather clear.
I am not really happy about the current state of affairs and will eventall write a PrC/some feats for my own witch to cover access to some other Patron spells, but this is RAW at the moment.
And btw a Witch get Instant Summons, but does not get the reqired Arcane Mark on her spell list.. it just seems that the witch spell list is missing some spells (lesser Resoration and Restoration hurt, I can live with greater Resto as a Patron spell though)
A witch can only add spells to her familiar if those spells belong to the witch’s spell list.
At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s patron adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known.
Ah, see. I'd missed that even though I'd read through that section several times; my oversight. Though I do agree that the phrase "adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known" is a bit odd.
I think it'd be helpful if the new base classes had rough guidelines for adding additional spells to their spell lists, say for those using the Spell Compendium. Things such as "single target enchantment spells of 4th or lower level", "transmutation spells of 3rd to 5th level", etc.
A witch can only add spells to her familiar if those spells belong to the witch’s spell list.
At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s patron adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known.
Ah, see. I'd missed that even though I'd read through that section several times; my oversight. Though I do agree that the phrase "adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known" is a bit odd.
That wording is odd enough for one of my players to ask if it means that the spell is 'known' as in 'prepared'. Now I've taken the line that 'no it doesn't', but it got me thinking. It would have been a nice touch if these spells were treat like a clerics domain spells and there's a slot to have them prepared. It would make the whole patron thing much more powerful as a concept for the player. I am thinking introducing that as a house rule, but just wondered what other more experienced GMs and players thought?
That wording is odd enough for one of my players to ask if it means that the spell is 'known' as in 'prepared'. Now I've taken the line that 'no it doesn't', but it got me thinking. It would have been a nice touch if these spells were treat like a clerics domain spells and there's a slot to have them prepared. It would make the whole patron thing much more powerful as a concept for the player. I am thinking introducing that as a house rule, but just wondered what other more experienced GMs and players thought?
I'm the one that Deevor is talking about!
Here was my reasoning in a ittle more detail. These two lines particularly...
At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s patron adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known. These spells are also automatically added to the list of spells stored by the familiar.
If the first line is refering to adding them as witch spells to the familar, why does it go on to state that it adds them as witch spells to the familar. Seems a bit redundant. I also remember that in the playtest the idea was that you were building your list of spells known from the familiar. When it was changed to being more like a wizard, I though the known part was old language that was overlooked. with that logic, I assumed that it was the equivelent to a wizards bonus spell prepared from their favored school, or as Deevor put it, a domain spell.
So what do you guys think?
