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Only references I can find suggest that the only limit is the length of the scroll and the time allotted.
A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8-1/2 inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8-1/2 inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each additional spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than simple strips of leather. A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8.
Scribing a scroll requires 1 day per 1,000 gp of the base price. Although an individual scroll might contain more than one spell, each spell must be scribed as a separate effort, meaning that no more than 1 spell can be scribed in a day.
As far as I know, there is no limit in v3.5 and a limit of 1 in Pathfinder.
As far as I know, there is no limit in v3.5 and a limit of 1 in Pathfinder.
That doesn't agre with the actual rules. TOZ quoted them a few posts above if you'd like to reference them. Clearly, by the rules, you can have more than 3 spells on a single scroll, though it doesn't specify an upper limit.
I still don't get how all spells take up the same amount of space on a scroll but different amounts of space in a spellbook. Judging by the spellbook rule (1 page per spell level), a 9th level spell would require a scroll that's 9 times as long as a 1th level spell scroll.
7 according to AD&D
: )
I still don't get how all spells take up the same amount of space on a scroll but different amounts of space in a spellbook. Judging by the spellbook rule (1 page per spell level), a 9th level spell would require a scroll that's 9 times as long as a 1th level spell scroll.
Hey, it's magic... maybe it is written in a different (volatile?) dialect. After all, spellbook spells don't go off when you read them.
I still don't get how all spells take up the same amount of space on a scroll but different amounts of space in a spellbook. Judging by the spellbook rule (1 page per spell level), a 9th level spell would require a scroll that's 9 times as long as a 1th level spell scroll.Hey, it's magic... maybe it is written in a different (volatile?) dialect. After all, spellbook spells don't go off when you read them.
A spellbook contains the instructions on how to commit the spell to memory, to build up the magical powers and bind them to your mind. Longer spells have longer instructions because they're more or less in mundane writing.
Scrolls are magic items, where the energy to use the spell is stored within the paper (or whatever you used to scribe that scroll) and the text on it is just a trigger phrase a trained spellcaster can use to unleash these forces. The spell completion phrase is about the same length for every spell (because if it weren't, casting time were subject to spell level, too.) unless it is one of these spells that needs to release the spell power gradually over time (i.e. longer casting time).
As far as I know, there is no limit in v3.5 and a limit of 1 in Pathfinder.That doesn't agre with the actual rules. TOZ quoted them a few posts above if you'd like to reference them. Clearly, by the rules, you can have more than 3 spells on a single scroll, though it doesn't specify an upper limit.
I'll look again. It was something I noticed when I first hopped over to Pathfinder and may have only existed in the beta or some such. I certainly hope you are right.
I loved having multi-use scrolls or scrolls with 20 fireballs on them.
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Well he quoted the page numbers above so you can look there. ;)
As far as explaining the difference in space to expand on what Kae Yoss said above, the scroll form wouldn't need explicit details and drawings on how to perform the somatic components or any details about the material components how to acquire them, what level of quality they need to be, why they work etc. Also you won't need any of the theory and notes about the spell that your actual book would contain.
Well, I'll admit it does make kind of sense that a book contains more details on a spell than a scroll. Still, it seems to make wizards even harder to manage between all those spells, components, familiar, bonded item, component pouch and so on.
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Scribing a scroll requires 1 day per 1,000 gp of the base price. Although an individual scroll might contain more than one spell, each spell must be scribed as a separate effort, meaning that no more than 1 spell can be scribed in a day.
Whoah; that's a comedown from 3.5.
Used to be, you could create scrolls worth up to 1000gp/day, with a 'scroll' being an item containing several spells, so you could churn out 40 'units' per day, a unit being a single [spell level*caster level].
Eg: one level 4 spell (4*7)=28
plus 2 level 2 spells 2(2*3)=12
Total 40, times 25, equals one 1000gp item.
Any idea why creators can work eight hours a day, on a valuable piece, but if they make a low-value item, they run out of puff?
Actually
Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item
So you can still create up to 4 scrolls a day if they're cheap enough. I still don't find any specific limits on scroll length, I guess you can have a scroll 20ft long if you want to deal with that. Also, I don't see any reason you can't take 20 single page scrolls and bind them into a book.
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Scribing a scroll requires 1 day per 1,000 gp of the base price. Although an individual scroll might contain more than one spell, each spell must be scribed as a separate effort, meaning that no more than 1 spell can be scribed in a day.Whoah; that's a comedown from 3.5.
Used to be, you could create scrolls worth up to 1000gp/day, with a 'scroll' being an item containing several spells, so you could churn out 40 'units' per day, a unit being a single [spell level*caster level].
Eg: one level 4 spell (4*7)=28
plus 2 level 2 spells 2(2*3)=12
Total 40, times 25, equals one 1000gp item.Any idea why creators can work eight hours a day, on a valuable piece, but if they make a low-value item, they run out of puff?
You're missing that the scroll's cost is spell level*caster level*25gp.
Psh, I wish 4th level spells were only 28gp :P
You're missing that the scroll's cost is spell level*caster level*25gp.
Psh, I wish 4th level spells were only 28gp :P
If you look again, his math is correct. He's multiplying by 25 at the very end.
I think this is probably just a DM "does that make sense to me" check. In PFS, at least the purchase of scrolls via PA would have to be for single spells
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There's no reason why you couldn't have ten or more spells on a very long piece of parchment. However, there's also no reason that the GM couldn't make a (fair) ruling that using such a scroll takes longer than a small scroll because you have to find the spell you're looking for. So the lack of a limit shouldn't be able to bypass the "I have to spend a move action to retrieve a scroll" restriction (i.e., "I'll put all 90 spells on one scroll, that way I spend one move action and they're all ready for casting!").
I've heard that some gnome-made scrolls are so long that they come with a table of contents, and index, and sometimes even a glossary.
There's no reason why you couldn't have ten or more spells on a very long piece of parchment. However, there's also no reason that the GM couldn't make a (fair) ruling that using such a scroll takes longer than a small scroll because you have to find the spell you're looking for. So the lack of a limit shouldn't be able to bypass the "I have to spend a move action to retrieve a scroll" restriction (i.e., "I'll put all 90 spells on one scroll, that way I spend one move action and they're all ready for casting!").
I'm going to go ahead and agree that mechanically you've got nothing preventing this from happening.
At the same time I'm going to go ahead and say that if we're talking treasure... bad idea. As a DM I've given up on "a scroll containing x, y, z, a, b, c, d, and kitchen sink*". Depending on the mixture and depending on what PCs you've got, this can get inconvenient, fast. "I don't want and can't cast kitchen sink but it's the most expensive part of this scroll so I want to sell it, but x, y, and b are useful to me so I don't".
Seriously. Give up. One scroll, one spell. Sell what you want, keep what you don't.
* This spell appears in the soon-to-be-released Pathfinder Companion: Fixtures and Fittings of Golarion by Sean K. Reynolds. Pre-order now.
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Considering that the spells on the scrolls are separate items joined on a common medium, there's no reason why you couldn't carefully cut a scroll into separate parts, one spell per piece, and sell or store them individually. It's just parchment, and if you're trying not to cut through the symbols (as opposed to a sunder attempt, which could hit anywhere), it should work just fine.
Scribing a scroll requires 1 day per 1,000 gp of the base price. Although an individual scroll might contain more than one spell, each spell must be scribed as a separate effort, meaning that no more than 1 spell can be scribed in a day.Whoah; that's a comedown from 3.5.
Used to be, you could create scrolls worth up to 1000gp/day, with a 'scroll' being an item containing several spells, so you could churn out 40 'units' per day, a unit being a single [spell level*caster level].
Eg: one level 4 spell (4*7)=28
plus 2 level 2 spells 2(2*3)=12
Total 40, times 25, equals one 1000gp item.Any idea why creators can work eight hours a day, on a valuable piece, but if they make a low-value item, they run out of puff?
I wonder if that was what I was thinking about.
Considering that the spells on the scrolls are separate items joined on a common medium, there's no reason why you couldn't carefully cut a scroll into separate parts, one spell per piece, and sell or store them individually. It's just parchment, and if you're trying not to cut through the symbols (as opposed to a sunder attempt, which could hit anywhere), it should work just fine.
Aha! Now I know about your secret project: Kitchen Implements Exposed. scroll-trimming scissors sound like exactly the sort of item you'd come up with. Golden.
But seriously, thanks for the input. Personally I'd always assumed altering or damaging a scroll sunders it, but you make a good point.
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I still don't get how all spells take up the same amount of space on a scroll but different amounts of space in a spellbook. Judging by the spellbook rule (1 page per spell level), a 9th level spell would require a scroll that's 9 times as long as a 1th level spell scroll.
There isn't really anything that says a first level spell takes 4" of page. A 9th level spell could easily take 9 times as much space as a 1st level spell, it's still a 'scroll' either way. No reason you couldn't say a 9th level scroll is 9 times the length of a 1st level scroll, it really makes no difference. It's one of those details the game system omits for simplicity.
I still don't get how all spells take up the same amount of space on a scroll but different amounts of space in a spellbook. Judging by the spellbook rule (1 page per spell level), a 9th level spell would require a scroll that's 9 times as long as a 1th level spell scroll.There isn't really anything that says a first level spell takes 4" of page. A 9th level spell could easily take 9 times as much space as a 1st level spell, it's still a 'scroll' either way. No reason you couldn't say a 9th level scroll is 9 times the length of a 1st level scroll, it really makes no difference. It's one of those details the game system omits for simplicity.
Hm....
A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8-1/2 inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell.
Seems pretty standard to me. 8.5 x 11 inches for one spell... doesn't say it's based on spell level.
Since 3.x, I've come to see a wizard spell (in a spell book) as a way to convey the information on how to fill a spell slot (with a spell). Meanwhile, a scroll is a way to create an extra spell slot (which is then filled with a spell).
Apparently, a 9th level spell slot doesn't take more paper space than a 1st level spell slot although the instructions on how to fill those spell slots vary on a ratio of 9:1...
Well, one important thing to remember (and this will seem like a non sequitur at first, so bear with me) is that you don't memorize spells in 3rd edition or Pathfinder. You prepare them. A 9th level spell requires a lot more preparation to be available to cast than a 1st level spell, so it takes up a lot more space in a spell book. A 9th level scroll, on the other hand, is already prepared. A scroll is a spell that's just waiting to be cast; it doesn't take 15 minutes minimum to prepare (as preparing a spell into an empty spell slot does). Thus, it doesn't require as much work and thus doesn't require as much space as the full preparation ritual does.