New sorcarer feat [Peach]

[clff rice]

Spell Versatility [General]

You are much more versatile than other sorcerers and can harness strange powers unknown to your other kin.

Requirements: Ability to cast arcane or Devin spells Without Preparing them, relevant ability of 12 + The Level of the spell Selected. Must have an opened spell slot of that level or higher which the spell must occupy.
Benefits: You may Select 1 spell not on your classes normal Spell list. From that point on you add it to your repertoire. This does not allow the character to gain an extra known spell the spell selected must be from an open "Spells Known" Slot.

Example: Merlin Goes from Second to Third level and wants to pick the cleric spell Inflict light wounds (A Level 1 Cleric Spell.) he has just gained an opened level 1 Sorcerer Spell slot so this is Acceptable.

Is this unbalanced?

[Senevri]

Not yet. Sorc/Wiz list is supposed to be the best.

That's amazing for Gishes, though. Divine Power.

[clff rice]

I was hoping for a bit more feedback :P Potentially unbalancing things and whatnot.

Cliff

[pad300]

Be careful with the "short" spell lists - eg. bards, alchemist, inquisitor, summoner. They tend to offer higher level/higher power spells than the equivalent level spells on wiz/sorceror. For example compare Cacophonous Call (Brd 2) with Hideous Laughter (Sor 2)...
Twin Form (Alchemist 6), Summon Monster IX (Summoner 6), Irresistable Dance (Bard 6).

[Kruelaid]

clff rice wrote:

I was hoping for a bit more feedback :P Potentially unbalancing things and whatnot.

Cliff

Man, I can't even get past the thread title.

[FiddlersGreen]

pad300 wrote:

Be careful with the "short" spell lists - eg. bards, alchemist, inquisitor, summoner. They tend to offer higher level/higher power spells than the equivalent level spells on wiz/sorceror. For example compare Cacophonous Call (Brd 2) with Hideous Laughter (Sor 2)...

Twin Form (Alchemist 6), Summon Monster IX (Summoner 6), Irresistable Dance (Bard 6).

+1

A feat to learn irresistible dance or Summon Monster IX as a level 6 spell (thus potentially nabbing them as early as level 11)? HELL YEAH.

As a player I'd consider it a 'must' for any primary spellcaster. As a DM I'd ban it on sight.

[clff rice]

Ahh good point on the spell level limit. I think ill edit it.

Spell Versatility [General] [version 2]

You are much more versatile than other sorcerers and can harness strange powers unknown to your other kin.

Requirements: Ability to cast arcane or Devin spells Without Preparing them, relevant ability of 12 + The Level of the spell Selected. Must have an opened spell slot of that level or higher which the spell must occupy.
Benefits: You may Select 1 spell not on your classes normal Spell list. From that point on you add it to your repertoire. This does not allow the character to gain an extra known spell the spell selected must be from an open "Spells Known" Slot. You may only select a spell as it exists in its highest level form. For example a Summoner can cast Summon monster nine as a level 6 spell but a Cleric can cast it as a lvl 9 spell so the Full spontaneous caster could only take it as a level 9 spell.

Example: Merlin Goes from Second to Third level and wants to pick the cleric spell Inflict light wounds (A Level 1 Cleric Spell.) he has just gained an opened level 1 Sorcerer Spell slot so this is Acceptable.

any more problems anyone sees?

[Abraham spalding]

Might want to put a line in to the following effect:

"If the spell appears on more than one spell list you must take it at the highest spell level of any list it appears on."

[Wolfthulhu]

Or the line, 'If you use this feat to be a douche, I will hit you with a folding chair'.

Other than the level loop hole, I don't see a huge issue. It doesn't grant extra spells, and you would need to take it multiple times to get more than one spell.

[clff rice]

LOL Douche! Well if nobody else sees any gross abuses for this than I'm sticking it in the finished file :D

[Ironicdisaster]

Good feat. I like it a lot.

[clff rice]

COOL, thanks for your help everybody.

[pad300]

With the new ruling, you catch most of the problem, but some specific spells still stick out. For example, Twin form (might not be an issue - it's alchemist only, but you could rule that those aren't spells). As it is, I would call it a lvl 8 equivalent on the sorceror/wiz list, and it is a 6th on the Alchemist list. There aren't others in such a corner case right now, but I would expect some more in Ultimate Magic.
Some other to look out for
Universal Formula (4th Alchemist)-- Ultimate spontaneous caster versatility addition (a mid level sorceror can spam this and pick from 30 or so useful spells on the fly)
Alchemical Allocation (2nd Alchemist), again a huge versatility booster for a spontaneous caster...It may be a little overpowered on it's own. Using a 2nd level spell to get the effect of a potion of up to 3ed level could be very strong.
Mass Cacophonous Call (bard 5), Mass disablers are usually much higher level than this on general spell lists.

This probably isn't everything, but what I spotted on a quick scan. Again, the issues will grow with more spells released (ie. Ultimate Magic, and whatever comes out of the adventure paths...)

[Umbral Reaver]

If you want to try to make it work, perhaps in the translation from one spell list to the next you work out the equivalent spell level by what class level you gain access to it at. So 4th level paladin/ranger spells end up being 7th level sorc spells (not counting the 0 bonus spell level).

[clff rice]

I think it works ok as is. Its every Gm's job to kaibosh game breaking stuff.

Once again thanks for all the input :)

[AvalonXQ]

Here's a modified version that fixes the balance issue, and also gives you a slightly larger (but selective) benefit.

Spell Versatility
Prereq: Spontaneous spellcasting class with limited spells known
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class other than the one for which you qualified for this feat. Each time you add a spell to your spells known due to an increase in level in the qualifying class, you may instead add to your class list and your spells known any spell that a caster of two levels lower in the chosen class could have learned. That spell has a level equal to the highest level of spell slot available at the time you learn it. You may not later retrain these spells.
You may learn a total number of versatile spells equal to your modifier in the spellcasting ability score of the chosen class (minimum 1).

[Phage]

You're basically extending Paizo's Two-World Magic trait to become a feat that will include higher level spells. Copy its wording and then add a level adjustment for the off-casters.

A simple ratio would be to take the original class' max spell tier and divide it by the chosen spells max tier. For example, a sorcerer has 9 tier spells, but a ranger only has 4. To take a ranger only spell you would multiply the ranger spell by 2.25. So a level 1 ranger spell takes up a tier 2~3 slot. A level 2 ranger spell would take up 4~5. On the flipside a level 1~2 sorc spell would take up a ranger's tier 1 slot. Alchemists have 6 tiers so 9/6 would give them a ratio of 1.5.

Also note that you would only be ever adding the spell to your known list and you shouldn't have to ever add it when you take the feat. It would make sense to choose it just like any other spell, though you would likely want to take it as soon as possible. This helps casters out since they gain spells on both even and odd levels, but only gain feats on odd levels.

[clff rice]

sounds complected phage.

[Muspellsheimr]

AvalonXQ wrote:

Here's a modified version that fixes the balance issue, and also gives you a slightly larger (but selective) benefit.

Spell Versatility
Prereq: Spontaneous spellcasting class with limited spells known
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class other than the one for which you qualified for this feat. Each time you add a spell to your spells known due to an increase in level in the qualifying class, you may instead add to your class list and your spells known any spell that a caster of two levels lower in the chosen class could have learned. That spell has a level equal to the highest level of spell slot available at the time you learn it. You may not later retrain these spells.
You may learn a total number of versatile spells equal to your modifier in the spellcasting ability score of the chosen class (minimum 1).

Thought I'd chime in because I am updating and expanding a feat I designed & used in D&D not to long ago. The original version functioned specifically for Sorcerers accessing the Cleric spell list, with the limit of spells 1 level or more below the highest level spell you can cast, and if the spell appears on both spell lists, available only at the sorcerer spell level.

Your idea of character level -2 works nicely for expanding the spell to allow other lists, but I would not place the spell at the highest level you can cast. Leave the spell at it's actual level (or primary spellcasting class level, if higher). Unfortunately, this still allows the possibility of abuse with Bard-esque lists; not sure how to solve that yet. The never being able to retrain them is a pointless restriction; remove it.

Another change I would make is add a spell to choose a spell. This disables the feat for Beguiler/Warmage type classes (who could easily abuse it horribly), while still allowing benefit from Advanced Training type class features, and the Expanded Arcana feat.

Assuming I remember, I will post a writeup for the (updated) feat itself when I wake up.

[Phage]

Really you're just creating a feat for equal potency spells between classes that would likely not receive the spell, which means conversion.

There's not really any way to simplify a conversion method for classes that would function on 4, 6, or 9 tiers. The easiest way would just be to make a giant list for what X tier from class Y would translate into another tier of another class.