I do not see it as broken.
You gain +2 BAB.
You do not gain hit points, since you don't get the favored class bonus for the Holy Vindicator levels (average of d8+1 = average of d10).
You get new spell levels far slower than a full cleric. 6th and 7th level spells 1 level later, 8th level spells 2 levels later, and 9th level spells 3 levels later.
And like you mention, you don't gain the highest level domain abilities, which is a pretty big deal for some of them.
In all, I'm not sure I would even want to take this PrC as a Cleric. To me, it seems far better suited to a Paladin.
That said.. Your DM is well within his rights to not use the Holy Vindicator in his games. It is up to him whether he wants to include any optional rules from any supplement.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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You do GET 9th level spells.
However, your caster level at 10/10 is only 17th, vs. 20th for a full-time cleric.
That's a pretty substantial difference in the effectiveness of your spells (shorter duration, less damage, lower pluses for things like GMW and magic vestment), your spells are easier to dispel, you get a relative -3 to your concentration checks and SR checks, plus you are getting 3 fewer 9th level spells, 2 fewer 8th level spells, and 1 fewer 7th level spell.
the loss of 10 levels of domain powers is also pretty substantial for most domains (not all, true).
Take the Good/Evil/Law/Chaos domains, for example: At 10th level, you can use the "make your weapon holy/unholy/etc." ability 1/day for 5 rounds. At 20th level you can use it 4/day for 10 rounds each. 4x the uses and 8x the duration.
The Strength domain is similar: At 10th level, you can add a +10 enhancement to your STR for 10 rounds a day. At 20th level, you can add a +20 enhancement to your STR for 20 rounds a day. Double duration AND double effect.
Protection: 10th level, +1 deflection to AC, energy resistance 5, 10 rounds/day. 20th level, +4 deflection to AC, energy resistance 10, 20 rounds/day. Double energy resistance, QUADRUPLE AC BONUS, double duration.
Luck: 1 reroll/day vs. 3 rerolls/day
Artifice: 1 use/day vs. 4 uses/day (Community is the same)
Fire/Air/Water/Earth: 10th level = energy resistance 10. 20th level = TOTAL ENERGY IMMUNITY.
Lots of domains have powers where it's a simple "half as much duration of your power" (Knowledge, Liberation, Destruction, Repose).
However, many of them also have a save DC based on your cleric level (Charm, Glory, Madness), so the save DC will be 15+Wis modifier if you're 10th level, 20+Wis modifier if you're 20th level.
It is true that there are a few domains where there's no difference at all: Death, Healing, Rune.
In sum, I wouldn't trivially discount the 10 levels of difference in domain powers (and note I'm not even bothering to compare the 1st level abilities, just the higher-grade ones) - they are quite significant losses.
But on top of that, losing 3 levels of spellcasting and a bunch of your highest-level spells is also a pretty substantial hit, and the loss of favored class bonus due to prestige classing, as noted above, cancels out the hit point gain.
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The banning of a character based on their power level once they hit max level is asinine. Once you hit level 20 you will have likely only have 3-4 adventures left in you before you start a new game. That is unless you've come up with some way to do epic level adventures in PFRPG.
The PrC class is fine, in fact I would say it is fairly well balanced compared to the core classes. Sure it offers a higher BAB but you lose the most powerful class abilities as a cleric in your high level domain powers, it seems like a pretty even tradeoff to me.
What people said. The class is ok, seeing the trades.
Expecially for the caster level lose. Lose caster level = BAD from an optimization standpoint.
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If you think the EK is okay, this PrC is way over powered...since it's basically EK for clerics...only lessy sucktastic entry req and a whole lotta class abilities on top of those BAB and CL. Now if you think the EK is weak, then this PrC is about right. Either case, full casters still are full of win over making a fighty version of them. So from an overall balance stand point, it makes not one with of difference...it just annoys the hell out of people who like the fighter/mage concept like me because we get nothing nice.
The banning of a character based on their power level once they hit max level is asinine. Once you hit level 20 you will have likely only have 3-4 adventures left in you before you start a new game. That is unless you've come up with some way to do epic level adventures in PFRPG.
The PrC class is fine, in fact I would say it is fairly well balanced compared to the core classes. Sure it offers a higher BAB but you lose the most powerful class abilities as a cleric in your high level domain powers, it seems like a pretty even tradeoff to me.
A friend I know had an interesting way to do epic levels. That wouldn't make them insanely overpowered.
As you gain levels. The only thing you get are more feats. Not including epic spellcasting creation. The slots would be there for awesome feat usage. But that is it.
If you think the EK is okay, this PrC is way over powered...since it's basically EK for clerics...only lessy sucktastic entry req and a whole lotta class abilities on top of those BAB and CL. Now if you think the EK is weak, then this PrC is about right. Either case, full casters still are full of win over making a fighty version of them. So from an overall balance stand point, it makes not one with of difference...it just annoys the hell out of people who like the fighter/mage concept like me because we get nothing nice.
Divine magic and Arcane magic do not work the same way. You wouldn't play the classes the same way, with the same strategies.
I could be wrong, but I don't think they are comparable.
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If you think the EK is okay, this PrC is way over powered...since it's basically EK for clerics...only lessy sucktastic entry req and a whole lotta class abilities on top of those BAB and CL. Now if you think the EK is weak, then this PrC is about right. Either case, full casters still are full of win over making a fighty version of them. So from an overall balance stand point, it makes not one with of difference...it just annoys the hell out of people who like the fighter/mage concept like me because we get nothing nice.Divine magic and Arcane magic do not work the same way. You wouldn't play the classes the same way, with the same strategies.
I could be wrong, but I don't think they are comparable.
Oh they are.
HV is making a fighter cleric. EK is a fighter mage. HV builds lose 3 CL+domain powers in exchange for enough extra BAB for 4 attacks a round. And gets class abilities to help you be a cleric/fighter on top of that. The EK build lose 3 CL+ school/bloodline powers for enough BAB for 4 attacks and barely enough extra HP so you don't auto-fail at your task. And that's it. EK kinda sucks at it's role compared to the HV no? Both will be considerable weaker then their full caster counterparts.
EK also sucks in that it's pretty much featureless, and its capstone does nothing.
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Napalm, the problem isn't with the HV its with the EK. It's not a good PrC. Some people do it but that's because its the only way to gish without using 3.5 splats.
I think its unfair to decide that new PrC's are unbalanced by comparing them only to core. Wait until Ultimate Magic comes out and offers some real PrC's for casters then you'll probably see the balance.
I'm seriously hoping Ultimate Magic has a redo of EK.
Repeat after me: You NEVER give up caster levels, it is NEVER worth it.
Who cares if he channels fully? Who cares if he BARELY gets to lv9 spells? A full-time cleric is sending demons packing with holy word while you are showing off with your fancy +1 bab. He casts mass heal while you have barely maximized the potential of regular heal. And the "Pshaw, domain powers" statement is is ridiculous. 2 extra uses of the luck domain reroll is better than +2 bab in my book. And as have been already pointed out, +1 guaranteed HP is better than 10% chance of getting +2.
Holy vindicator is a fighty cleric class, and a rather underwhelming one if you ask me. Sure, you can buff up and go into melee, earning the scorn of the others for shirking your job of keeping THEM up to par and healed, and feel like a fighter for 1rd/level. But seriously, if you want to fight and be slightly self-buffy/-healy, play a paladin, which is the far superior choice by most standards.
Oh and regarding the EK: He loses ONE level, meaning that if it were not for the prerequisite dip in fighter/barbarian/paladin/whatever gets all the martial weapons, a wiz/EK would be on par with a sorcerer. Also HP/BAB goes up 2 steps from wizard/sorcerer, not just one as is the case for cleric - vindicator. Also, I would argue that arcane magic is better for a fighting type, as the god-tier defensive spells are mostly arcane. And capstone freebie quicken spell whenever you roll more than 15 on the die with your falchion is not just good, it's pretty darned awe-inspiring. You can almost reliably cast all your touch/cone/line spells as swift actions if you are regularly embroiled in combat.
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Napalm, the problem isn't with the HV its with the EK. It's not a good PrC. Some people do it but that's because its the only way to gish without using 3.5 splats.
I think its unfair to decide that new PrC's are unbalanced by comparing them only to core. Wait until Ultimate Magic comes out and offers some real PrC's for casters then you'll probably see the balance.
See I agree, the EK suck. It's at best a filler class as written. I don't think the HV is overpowered either. However people who think the EK is a nice balanced PrC will see the HV and go holy monkey balls.
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Repeat after me: You NEVER give up caster levels, it is NEVER worth it.
Who cares if he channels fully? Who cares if he BARELY gets to lv9 spells? A full-time cleric is sending demons packing with holy word while you are showing off with your fancy +1 bab. He casts mass heal while you have barely maximized the potential of regular heal. And the "Pshaw, domain powers" statement is is ridiculous. 2 extra uses of the luck domain reroll is better than +2 bab in my book. And as have been already pointed out, +1 guaranteed HP is better than 10% chance of getting +2.
Holy vindicator is a fighty cleric class, and a rather underwhelming one if you ask me. Sure, you can buff up and go into melee, earning the scorn of the others for shirking your job of keeping THEM up to par and healed, and feel like a fighter for 1rd/level. But seriously, if you want to fight and be slightly self-buffy/-healy, play a paladin, which is the far superior choice by most standards.
+1
It's a great PrC in terms of flavor, though. I have a Zon-Kuthon cleric in mind for the future and being able to bleed myself for bonuses is so cool I half want to kill my character in some suitably heroic way just to do this. So cool...
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See I agree, the EK suck. It's at best a filler class as written. I don't think the HV is overpowered either. However people who think the EK is a nice balanced PrC will see the HV and go holy monkey balls.
Well, they just need to take a deep breath and use their brain to determine what everyone else in this thread other than the OP's GM already has.
I mean, sh*t, we're supposed to be geeks and nerds here. Using our brain is what we do...
HV is making a fighter cleric. EK is a fighter mage. HV builds lose 3 CL+domain powers in exchange for enough extra BAB for 4 attacks a round. And gets class abilities to help you be a cleric/fighter on top of that. The EK build lose 3 CL+ school/bloodline powers for enough BAB for 4 attacks and barely enough extra HP so you don't auto-fail at your task. And that's it. EK kinda sucks at it's role compared to the HV no? Both will be considerable weaker then their full caster counterparts.
The spellists are different. You can make BF control better with mage spells. There are more tricks. And True Strike alone can do wonders for a fighting class.
IMO the point is that the fighter cleric is better for buff+bash, but EK is more designed to be played thinking outside the box.
Just my thoughts.
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See I agree, the EK suck. It's at best a filler class as written. I don't think the HV is overpowered either. However people who think the EK is a nice balanced PrC will see the HV and go holy monkey balls.Well, they just need to take a deep breath and use their brain to determine what everyone else in this thread other than the OP's GM already has.
I mean, sh*t, we're supposed to be geeks and nerds here. Using our brain is what we do...
Sadly the quality of the geeks and nerds of this era seems to be quite low. I blame the vampire players....
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The spellists are different. You can make BF control better with mage spells. There are more tricks. And True Strike alone can do wonders for a fighting class.IMO the point is that the fighter cleric is better for buff+bash, but EK is more designed to be played thinking outside the box.
Just my thoughts.
True strike lets you get one attack at +20 for a standard action. I would say you can do it as a swift at higher levels...but your a EK, you don't have swift actions. That does diddly and squat for a fighting class.
BC spells are nice...the only issue being is that a pure caster can do it better. That's like saying well the HV gets healing spells. Yeah it's nice, but the straight cleric will heal better.
True strike can bring a +20 on a combat maneuver, too. This is what I mean for "think outside the box".
I simply fail to see how the HV is even good, much less broken. The abilities are mostly flavorful as pointed out, but hardly game-breaking:
Skills: Decent amount of class skills, but still 2+int, meaning it does not merit a mention in terms of power.
Proficiencies: Heavy armor and martial weapons. A good buff for a cleric, allows you to better mimic the fighter. Useless for a paladin.
Base Attack Bonus: Increases the cleric's potential by 2. You get access to another iterative attack, which hardly matters. Qualifies you for Greater vital strike, which can be nice. Getting into the class early (cleric lv5 or 6) on helps you on mid-level, but shoots yourself in the foot domain-wise in many cases.
Continued channeling: The best feature of the class. Channeling is great healing post battle, and decent healing in battle if you are willing to sink a feat into selective channeling. But the POWER of it can be argued, since you need to focus more on physical stats as a HV than a cleric would have to.
Vindicators Shield: Spends one of your best healing assets for a +3 bonus to AC if you get into the class early, and increases by +1/2lvs. Goes away when something hits you. Good against touch attacks and sneaky rogues, but too easily taken down.
Stigmata: Bleeding is bad, but not huge. The flexible bonus is good. Doesn't stack with Vindicator's Shield. Good, but not worth 3 caster levels.
Faith Healing: Inferior version of the lv6 Healing Domain power until you are character-level 14, and then real healing is rarely done by dice anyway. Kind of a trap.
Divine Wrath: Doom is a mind-affecting fear spell, meaning half the monster manual chuckles at it. Still costs you a slot, but it is decent against martial characters, beasts and rogues. Reflexive use when victim of critical is worth mentioning, as it doubles the versatility.
Bloodfire: Great for evil HVs, close to useless for good HVs. Only evil outsiders can be hurt by positive channeling and also bleed.
Versatile Channel: Again, great for bad guys, but helps good guys heal people at range, which is always nice.
Divine Judgment: Err... you SURE this class is not meant for bad guys? Death Knell is usually an evil act, but this class makes an exception for you alone. Anyways, this more or less saves the death knell spell in my book, as it allows you to use it without having to spend a round on a non-threat. Enchantment bonus to str is most likely pointless by the level you get this ability, but the extra HP and the +1 caster level is nice.
Bloodrain: Great for baddies, so-so for good guys. Again, only evil outsiders are adversely affected by the condition, as elementals, undead and so forth are mostly immune to status-effects.
Divine Retribution: Finally one that is as good for good guys as for the bad guys. Bestow Curse is a will-save, but not a mind-affecting effect, meaning it is good across the board. But now you are level 16+, and the save DC on a lv3 spell (doubly so for someone who needs to have 14 or more in 4 different stats to function in his role) is commonly made by most everything that poses a challenge.
My final call:Great bad guy/NPC PRC, since full-blown high level casters never get to use their full spell-potential anyway. Make those falchion-users suffer for their optimized builds.
For a good guy? You will be overshadowed by the paladin, and most likely the single class cleric. But then again, you are kind of the bard of the divine, a middle ground between two extremes. And it saves you from being a heal-/buff-bot, which is the main reason a lot of people dislike the cleric.
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My DM has banned the Holy Avenger PrC from the APG for 1 reason:
A Cleric 10/ HA 10 would have BAB +17, full channeling, 9th level spells, and 10d8+10d10 hit dice, while only giving up 10 levels of domain abilities.
Anyone else see this as a broken class? The way I see it is if your not a Clr10/HA10 your more than balanced, like a paladin or cleric fighter. I just don't get it.
Soooo.....
Banning the class because of an overall +2 BAB shift, about 10 more hit points, and losing 10 levels of domain power. WAY overpowered.....
LazarX, I agree with you point of view. But in the same way, I stated the mantra myself above to show that, if the PrC is not da uberoptimal (because of the CL loss) is very unlikely to be so broken that is mandatory ban it.
Repeat after me: You NEVER give up caster levels, it is NEVER worth it.
The mantra has been done to death. My reply to that is that it is worth it if it gets you something you want bad enough. Not all casters have to be max caster level to be effective. Battlefield control spells like Walls or Summons are fairly irrelevant in concerns of caster level. If the desire is to be a fighting cleric it's a valid avenue to go. (not the only one but a valid one)
Mantras like this are for the charop boards where every character has to be super optimised. That is clearly not the intent of Pathfinder module design, nor of the game system creaters themselves.
A lot of people have condemmed 4th Edition for being to MMO like. The MMO mindset is alive and well in mantras such as the one that Kamel reititerates.
That said, I've seem builds that the Charopers would condemn for not being top of the optimal curve perform well in the hands of the players that could think beyond that mindset.
My intention was to point out that the class is far from over-powered. What better tool to use than an optimization mantra? The abilities and BAB increase < 3 caster levels, meaning it is at best balanced, and definitely not overpowered.
I may preach optimization when I argue, but I _play_ bards, sorcerers and monks, because they are fun. Next, I am playing a samurai-flavored paladin with inferior armor and flavor-traits and even a (mostly) flavor feat.
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If you think the EK is okay, this PrC is way over powered...since it's basically EK for clerics...only lessy sucktastic entry req and a whole lotta class abilities on top of those BAB and CL. Now if you think the EK is weak, then this PrC is about right. Either case, full casters still are full of win over making a fighty version of them. So from an overall balance stand point, it makes not one with of difference...it just annoys the hell out of people who like the fighter/mage concept like me because we get nothing nice.Divine magic and Arcane magic do not work the same way. You wouldn't play the classes the same way, with the same strategies.
I could be wrong, but I don't think they are comparable.
Oh they are.
HV is making a fighter cleric. EK is a fighter mage. HV builds lose 3 CL+domain powers in exchange for enough extra BAB for 4 attacks a round. And gets class abilities to help you be a cleric/fighter on top of that. The EK build lose 3 CL+ school/bloodline powers for enough BAB for 4 attacks and barely enough extra HP so you don't auto-fail at your task. And that's it. EK kinda sucks at it's role compared to the HV no? Both will be considerable weaker then their full caster counterparts.
HV takes a class that is decent at melee combat and makes them better. EK takes a class that sucks at melee and makes them decent. Seems reasonable to me.
Napalm, the problem isn't with the HV its with the EK. It's not a good PrC. Some people do it but that's because its the only way to gish without using 3.5 splats.
No, it's not. Arcane Duelist in the APG fits it splendidly for the "equal caster/warrior", and there's a few ways to multiclass if you want a warrior with a little casting or a caster with a little fighting ability.
HV is totally not over powered. It's balanced. I'd take it for the concept not the optimization. If I want an optimized cleric I'd stick with cleric.
The only thing HV makes is a more Paladin like Cleric who doesn't have to be LG and that's a good thing in my books.