If it involves dice, there is nothing certain.
A fight of a level 20 fighter vs. level 20 wizard does not involve dice anymore. I showed you one way, the divination wiz above is another way, and there's many, many more.
In theory yes. But these are all familiar arguments that were used under the old rule set as well. The fighter sill won, 5/5.
Like i said, once you introduce chance, anything is possible. Highly unlikely, but possible. The original wager was that the wizard would win 3/3, but if the fighter managed to win one, he was doing well. When I had won the first 3, I GAVE the wizard initiative, and still won the last 2.
re: Gate- I suggest you re-read the relevant rules. Extraplanar is key.
Hence the challenge :) I've done this before, under 3.0 rules, and wiped out the wizard player 5/5. I agree a properly prepared Wizard SHOULD be able to pull this off with no problem, but I have yet to see one that DID. Anyone is welcome to respond to this challenge, but we will need a non-biased DM to run it and adjudicate.Divination specialist wizard 20
Step 1: Win initiative(always go first).
Step 2: Cast Gate and call Ice Linnorm(CMB +49).
Step 3: Order Ice linnorm to grapple a fighter.
Step 4: Buy some popcorn and watch the show.
Make him, and I'll meet you in the play by post area :D
Make him, and I'll meet you in the play by post area :DHence the challenge :) I've done this before, under 3.0 rules, and wiped out the wizard player 5/5. I agree a properly prepared Wizard SHOULD be able to pull this off with no problem, but I have yet to see one that DID. Anyone is welcome to respond to this challenge, but we will need a non-biased DM to run it and adjudicate.Divination specialist wizard 20
Step 1: Win initiative(always go first).
Step 2: Cast Gate and call Ice Linnorm(CMB +49).
Step 3: Order Ice linnorm to grapple a fighter.
Step 4: Buy some popcorn and watch the show.
Post a link! I wanna see how this goes! XD
... in pvp the relative abilities of the players is much more important then the abilities of the classes...
I tend to agree with this. An experienced player can almost always triumph, either through creativity, guile, or sheer rules lawyering :) I'm pretty old and evil to boot, so....
Make him, and I'll meet you in the play by post area :D
we need a DM, and the relevant rule set, esp re: buffing or "leaving the field". I found your point re: cohorts very funny, and a good reason to avoid the issue altogether, IMO :) Do we have a volunteer DM?
We will need to submit builds offline so neither player gets an advantage by posting late. Thoughts?
It doesn't matter... play one if you fancy it, don't if you don't?
"Move along, this isn't the fighter thread you're looking for"
Make him, and I'll meet you in the play by post area :D
we need a DM, and the relevant rule set, esp re: buffing or "leaving the field". I found your point re: cohorts very funny, and a good reason to avoid the issue altogether, IMO :) Do we have a volunteer DM?
We will need to submit builds offline so neither player gets an advantage by posting late. Thoughts?
I am pretty busy at the moment. But if he says yes, i think we can hash out some ground rules and do it in a week or so.
I will put in a provizo, that he must do exactly what he set out in this threat though ;)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Hence the challenge :) I've done this before, under 3.0 rules, and wiped out the wizard player 5/5. I agree a properly prepared Wizard SHOULD be able to pull this off with no problem, but I have yet to see one that DID. Anyone is welcome to respond to this challenge, but we will need a non-biased DM to run it and adjudicate.Divination specialist wizard 20
Step 1: Win initiative(always go first).
Step 2: Cast Gate and call Ice Linnorm(CMB +49).
Step 3: Order Ice linnorm to grapple a fighter.
Step 4: Buy some popcorn and watch the show.
Step 5: Read the rules.
Gate: "The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid."
Ice Linnorm: not extraplanar. Ignores attempt to gate him in.
Wizard: "Oops, guess I wasted my action by attempting to cheat. This game is much harder when I have to follow the rules."
Step 6: Fighter's turn.
P.S. If we're talking about certainties in the game, one is that, with all the grapple monsters in the game, a 20th level fighter will have a ring of freedom of movement (probably slotless). Grapple = fail.
EDIT: Ninja'd
Divination specialist wizard 20Step 1: Win initiative(always go first).
Step 2: Cast Gate and call Ice Linnorm(CMB +49).
Step 3: Order Ice linnorm to grapple a fighter.
Step 4: Buy some popcorn and watch the show.
Just to point out, Gate can only call an extraplanar creature and an Ice Linnorn is a (non-extraplanar) Dragon.
And casting a Gate to call one or more extraplanar creatures would still cost 10.000 bucks.
But I would gladly buy some popcorn so see this show :) .
EDIT: lots of ninjas in this forum :D ...
Hence the challenge :) I've done this before, under 3.0 rules, and wiped out the wizard player 5/5. I agree a properly prepared Wizard SHOULD be able to pull this off with no problem, but I have yet to see one that DID. Anyone is welcome to respond to this challenge, but we will need a non-biased DM to run it and adjudicate.Divination specialist wizard 20
Step 1: Win initiative(always go first).
Step 2: Cast Gate and call Ice Linnorm(CMB +49).
Step 3: Order Ice linnorm to grapple a fighter.
Step 4: Buy some popcorn and watch the show.
Sure if you have the gold to burn.
...and what if said Fighter has a Ring of Freedom of Movement? O.O
I cast "Swarm of Rules Lawyers!!!"
I win :)
I'll DM this if we can get people to run both sides. I promise to run it fairly, and lord knows any decisions I have to make will be picked apart by the adoring masses :) I'd seriously like to see if it was a fluke, or something that can be repeated. In the interests of Science, of course :)
Hence the challenge :) I've done this before, under 3.0 rules, and wiped out the wizard player 5/5. I agree a properly prepared Wizard SHOULD be able to pull this off with no problem, but I have yet to see one that DID. Anyone is welcome to respond to this challenge, but we will need a non-biased DM to run it and adjudicate.Better challenge: Ignore K, he is one of the group that unless your playing a wizard {Who always happens to have endless spells called"Anyspell I need right now} and happens to have endless gold and any magic item he could ever need
Then your playing wrong
PvP does not mean anything because the game is built around a team system. A more accurate way to do it is to have a 4 man party with 2 wizards, and another 4 man party with 2 fighter each with the same supporting cast run through several encounters(not just combat) in a published module.
Have them statted up at different levels. A 2nd party will randomly pick an AP and the encounter. Both parties will try to overcome the encounter.
PS: The support cast should have the exact same build.
Step 5: Read the rules.
Gate: "The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid."
Ice Linnorm: not extraplanar. Ignores attempt to gate him in.
Read the extraplanar subtype. There have to be one linnorm not on the material plane. You can always find one by divination spell and send him to abys by plane shift spell. Linnorm have now extraplanar subtype.
Antimagic field.Sure if you have the gold to burn.
...and what if said Fighter has a Ring of Freedom of Movement? O.O
Wow, you fail so hard at this it's sad.
Ok, so round one, you cast a divination spell to find the name and location of an extraplanar Linnorm. Round two, you send him to the abyss. You spend the next round casting the gate. Then finally, you cast AMF on the fighter.
In the mean time, you are already dead. And what happens to Summonned creatures in an AMF class?
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Antimagic field.
Which has a range of 10ft centered on the caster. Which means the Wizard is going to be in reach if the Fighter has Lunge, a reach weapon, a bow, or can take a 5ft step to get closer to the Wizard.
Oh, and it stops the wizard's spells and summonned monsters.
If Linnorms get, disregard this.
PvP does not mean anything because the game is built around a team system. ..
I tend to agree, but the premise previously stated was that a Wizard, of almost any level, would be ALWAYS able to defeat a fighter of an equivalent level. I disagree with that notion, hence the last couple pages of silliness :)
Silliness for which no wizard player has stepped forward to dispute, BTW. If nothing else, fighters win from sheer pugnacity. :)
It doesn't matter anyway, metamagic rod of quicken + time stop gives you enough time to buff even if the wizard loses initiative.You can always roll a "1" on time stop :) Sure , you still get 2 rounds (assuming Timestop was the Quickened spell?), but if I already had a full round action, your wizard will be too busy bleeding. Plus, with all the daze and critical feats fighters get, you'll be lucky to GET an action if the fighter goes first. We can argue, or we can play a game :)
You will not possibly go first, as the wizard could just contingency-teleport out of there in the worst case and buff himself in peace, summon some friends, whatever...
I cannot believe that you don't see this, even with your rules everything is stacked in favor of the wizard:
- inherent class imbalance
- contingency and quicken
- the wizard can go nova...it boggles the mind.
Doesn't Moment of Prescience give like a +20 to most rolls meaning he can almost auto make the fort save. Timestop, quicken whatever he wants while he is there. There is also Gate. I agree that it would take a poorly made wizard or sorcerer to lose this one, but it would not prove anything so if this ever takes place I think the party example should be used.
In theory yes. But these are all familiar arguments that were used under the old rule set as well. The fighter sill won, 5/5.
Like i said, once you introduce chance, anything is possible. Highly unlikely, but possible. The original wager was that the wizard would win 3/3, but if the fighter managed to win one, he was doing well. When I had won the first 3, I GAVE the wizard initiative, and still won the last 2.
re: Gate- I suggest you re-read the relevant rules. Extraplanar is key.
You are correct but pit fiends are extraplanar.
+38 grapple.
+34 for CMB. He disarms you or sunders your weapons. If you have the gauntlet of locking so you cant be disarmed he sunders that and then takes your weapon.
In theory yes. But these are all familiar arguments that were used under the old rule set as well. The fighter sill won, 5/5.
Like i said, once you introduce chance, anything is possible. Highly unlikely, but possible. The original wager was that the wizard would win 3/3, but if the fighter managed to win one, he was doing well. When I had won the first 3, I GAVE the wizard initiative, and still won the last 2.
re: Gate- I suggest you re-read the relevant rules. Extraplanar is key.
You are correct but pit fiends are extraplanar.
+38 grapple.
+34 for CMB. He disarms you or sunders your weapons. If you have the gauntlet of locking so you cant be disarmed he sunders that and then takes your weapon.
As sad as it is I have never seen players use freedom of movement, and they know I like to grapple.
Wow, you fail so hard at this it's sad.
Ok, so round one, you cast a divination spell to find the name and location of an extraplanar Linnorm. Round two, you send him to the abyss. You spend the next round casting the gate. Then finally, you cast AMF on the fighter.
In the mean time, you are already dead. And what happens to Summonned creatures in an AMF class?
I will explain this again.
0. Win initative
1. Cast maximized Time stop
2. Cast gate and call(go read what is calling) extraplanar Ice linnorm "By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell". If there somewhere is an extraplanar Ice Linnorm, gate will call it and I dont have to know his name. Order him to grapple fighter.
3. Move close to fighter and cast antimagic field(called creatures do not disappear in antimagic field)
4. Watch showDo you understand now ?
It would be up to a DM to give any monster a subtype it does not have by the book. I think we should stick to stock monsters, and magic items. It keeps things simple.
As someone else mentioned, a better test would be to make a series of challenges and put both characters to the test.
Incidentally, I love how more and more rules will be propping up to try and keep wizard power levels down. "No buffs!" "No teleporting!" "No using any of your divination spells!"
Incidentally, I love how more and more rules will be propping up to try and keep wizard power levels down. "No buffs!" "No teleporting!" "No using any of your divination spells!"
Interesting assertion. I haven't seen any attempt to limit either players' options yet -- either than asking the players to stick to things that actually exist in the books.
You are correct but pit fiends are extraplanar.+38 grapple.
+34 for CMB. He disarms you or sunders your weapons. If you have the gauntlet of locking so you cant be disarmed he sunders that and then takes your weapon.
Also true. But figure a base fighter with a 20 STR @ 20th level has a CMD standing still of ~35 (10 +20 BAB+5 STR). That's before weapon training, deflection mods, dodge bonuses, any feats, or even a high dex are called into play. So it would be pretty easy to end up somewhere in the upper 40s, which means a 50/50 chance on a d20 roll. And the wizard just used 10K GP on a spell, AND gave me at least one full round to whack away at him.
So, you want to play the wizard? :)
Incidentally, I love how more and more rules will be propping up to try and keep wizard power levels down. "No buffs!" "No teleporting!" "No using any of your divination spells!"Interesting assertion. I haven't seen any attempt to limit either players' options yet -- either than asking the players to stick to things that actually exist in the books.
I think "No buffs unless they're x/day" is a pretty bizarre and extreme limitation, considering a level 20 wizard can have buffs that last longer then he'll be awake.
