Hello this is my first post on the Paizo boards but I have been reading them for weeks now. I have a home made world that I have been working on for about 3 years. I'm having trouble with how I want the divine system to work. I am unsatisfied with a run of the mill polytheistic pantheon of gods like in the core book. I would like to just remove gods altogether. Here are some of my ideas and I would love any and all constructive feedback you all can provide. Thanks!!
I was thinking of just having clerics only use the no god option for selecting domains. In my world clerics do not spontaneously cure/inflict they instead spontaneously cast their domain spell lists. Also since cleric lack a capstone ability like the other classes I have slated the class to gain a third domain at 10th level and maybe a 4th domain at 20th.
Furthermore I allow pretty much anything from 3.0/3.5 after review so there is an issue with certain prestige classes.
Lastly one thing that I'm not sure about and would like some input on is how a godless society would run in a iron age/medieval setting that pathfinder and subsequently my world runs in.
Thanks you all for your input!!!
Hello this is my first post on the Paizo boards but I have been reading them for weeks now. I have a home made world that I have been working on for about 3 years. I have having trouble with how i want my divine system to work. I unsatisfied with a run of the mill polytheistic pantheon of gods like in the core book. I would like to just remove gods altogether. Here are some of my ideas and I would love any and all constructive feedback you all can provide. Thanks!!
I was thinking of just having clerics only use the no god option for selecting domains. In my world clerics do not spontaneously cure/inflict they instead spontaneously cast their domain spell lists. Also since cleric lack a capstone ability like the other classes I have slated the class to gain a third domain at 10th level and maybe a 4th domain at 20th.
Furthermore I allow pretty much anything from 3.0/3.5 after review so there is an issue with certain prestige classes.
Lastly one thing that I'm not sure about and would like some input on is how a godless society would run in a iron age/medieval setting that pathfinder and subsiquently my world runs in.
Thanks you all for your input!!!
Well, first off I certainly think it can work just fine without actual dieties. But I think letting a cleric spontaneously cast from their domains adds alot to their versatility and their power. Especially if you add additional domains. With 4 domains at high levels that is 36 spells they can cast spontaneously of which they have a wide variety to choose from. You are basically handing the oracle's (or any spontenous divine caster class) best casting feature to the cleric. So that I would argue considerably against unless you dont care for spontaneous casters in general for your world.
As for how the world would work, it would be secular. Without the force of the church being present, kings and nobles would be the only powers, and everything would depend on their quality. Kings can be good or bad, as can nobles and ruling councils, so their societies would depend on the individual qualities of the rulers.
You may want to take another look at the domain powers. While the cleric core itself lacks a capstone at 20th, a lot of the domain powers grant their own little capstones. I'm not saying they're the greatest, mind you, but it's something.
In our dark ages period, creativity was limited to religiously themed works of art, so perhaps more secular art might have developed in your world sooner. The peasantry probably found another manner of making stuff up for explaining miracles or disasters, or they could just dismiss it altogether. I wouldn't necessarily think that the peasantry would be more educated, mind you, but if they can't attribute stuff they can't understand to a god, they'll find another way around it. They probably wouldn't look down on the concept of a god if it's not around at all. I figure if you have a character that wants to believe strongly in a concept or anthropomorphize the sun or whatnot, they'd just look at him like a physics major regards someone who believes in healing crystals or ghosts. That "you're kinda kooky" thing, not the "Heretic!" kind of thing.
Hmmm I see your point regarding the spontaneous casting. The reason why I did it was so that clerics of different gods were actually different from each in something more then name. Although now that I am removing gods this may not be needed. I must admit though that I like the idea of spontaneous domains since it make domain choice more important. What if instead of adding more domains I give the class a free spell slot at each spell level that can only be used to cast a domain spell? A domain spell slot so to speak ;).
Additionally I should have said this in my first post but I was thinking about still having churches but making them kind of like the the Roman Catholic church of old in that the "work for god" but are actually a powerful political and spiritual organization. So in effect churches may project power and influence in certain areas and the clerics of those churches would all pick from certain domains that the church favors (representing areas of spiritual study).
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The question of religion also still comes up; which is to say, just because there is no direct influence of deities does not mean that people seeking power will not try to get people to bow before them. Rulers may declare themselves "gods" so others won't rise over them or question their judgements. See Egyptian society. They may try to get people to bow before an external source so they gain wealth and power; as is typical in western religions.
If you're wanting to simply do away, you can look at modern dictatorships. Churches in the past served s the check-and-balance for kings in midevil times; lacking that, the totalitarian ruler will try to gain as much as they can without causing rebellion. It'd be even more cast-based than midevil; think ancient greece.
Whew! So the bottom line is removing thur direct influence of gods simply brings things more Lin line with the real world. The end result actually causes ou more work, but can be a fun world.
You might also have lots of different kinds of governments, not just monarchies. Monarchs rule by divine right; without the divine, they have no right to rule. They would need different justifications to rule: power, money, influence, kindness, a big honking army, elected (by the people, the Senate, the guilds, the merchants, the council of big powerful beings, secret society, the sufferage lottery, the board of directors, the inner circle of government bureaucrats, army generals, witches' coven, pirate lords, etc. etc.).
greetings, fellow travelers.
when i read your post athas from ad&d aka darksun campaign setting comes to my mind - maybe you could dig the net for further information. darksun is a brutal setting without divine/godly guidance. clerics (as per the rules) exist, but worship one of the four elements (athas is a desert world btw).
then, there are the sorcerer kings (mighty users of arcane magic), who grant spells to their followers (called templars) - i hope i got that right, i am away from my books and playing darksun is quite some time now.
the sorc kings would also fit your idea of resembling the roman catholic church during the dark ages.
ruyan
In my campaign world, the civilized religion does not include gods. Instead, civilized people associate with the Temple of Virtues. Each Virtue is associated with three domains; clerics choose a Virtue that they must seek to embody and pursue. Essentially the Virtue is acting in the place of a god for members of the civilized nations.
If this idea interests you, I'm happy to reproduce my list of Virtues and their associated domains.
You might still reexamine the spontaneous casting of domain spells, but instead have the cleric pick one domain and spontaneously cast those spells. They'll get a similar number of options to a standard cleric, but not step on the toes of spontaneous divine spellcasters so much.
Something else to consider, if only for yourself: why are there no gods? Were there never gods? Or did the people of the land overthrow the organized religions of the world? That could have some significant effects on the social structures of your world.
In my campaign world, the civilized religion does not include gods. Instead, civilized people associate with the Temple of Virtues. Each Virtue is associated with three domains; clerics choose a Virtue that they must seek to embody and pursue. Essentially the Virtue is acting in the place of a god for members of the civilized nations.
If this idea interests you, I'm happy to reproduce my list of Virtues and their associated domains.
This sounds great I would love to see your list if you could. It would provide a guide for my own endeavors.
You might still reexamine the spontaneous casting of domain spells, but instead have the cleric pick one domain and spontaneously cast those spells. They'll get a similar number of options to a standard cleric, but not step on the toes of spontaneous divine spellcasters so much.
Something else to consider, if only for yourself: why are there no gods? Were there never gods? Or did the people of the land overthrow the organized religions of the world? That could have some significant effects on the social structures of your world.
That is something I didn't consider. Well I would say that maybe there were gods at one point but after the cataclysm that brought the dark mist into the world the gods were cut off from world. That is an interesting idea.
What if that magical event somehow affected the gods so that now they are slumbering or something. Unconsciously able to channel divine power into the world but not give it direction. That would account for the cleric of anything approach.
Also I like the idea having just one of the cleric domains be spontaneous casting and the other domain be for the domain spell slot. then I can still grant the cleric another normal domain at 10 level.
On that note I think it would be fair to allow the cleric to change his spontaneous domain when he gains a new domain or at every even level to represent how the clerics world view changes the older and wiser he becomes. In this way the clerics spontaneous domain represents his main focus in life.
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You can even simply allow them to choose daily; some domains might be more suitable to non-combat expected days, others to adventure days. You are making domains with already great spell lists (travel) even better though; though for those who do want to heal, the healing domain is a better spontaneous casting.
As to gods, many games (DQ IX, Lunar: Silver Star Story) are revolved around discovering what happened to the gods and their disappearance. I'd leave it undisclosed, and if people show interest you can have many adventures around discovering the truth.
I do like the ideas of powers around virtues/vices.
I'm using a homebrew system that draws a small degree of influence out of the original world of warcraft computer games (predating WoW).
There aren't gods per se, but there are two overarching philosophies: Holy Light and Void. It's not too hard to figure out what is what but basically, they are forces of nature and the universe.
If a community reveres a local god, totem, saint, or even a place of goodness, one could say they're simply manifest aspects of Holy Light - almost like the 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' paradigm. Holy light encompasses basically all things good: warmth, life, growth, healing, love, light, etc.
Likewise, darkness, evil, cold, and malevolence might be manifest aspects of Void - the anti-light.
I was trying to create a paradigm that could fit well with certain fantasy settings as well as our own mythic history. (For example, in Ars Magica you could have followers of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism who are all equally "holy", even though their own particular interpretations of God are all different). In this case, they may all be drawing forth faces of Holy Light at times (while at other times their actions might be more influenced by Void).
I do feel this is a bit different (or at least interpreted differently) than the "Light side / Dark side" description of the Force in Star Wars (especially discarding the whole midichlorian nonsense in the supposed prequals). One could even argue that Holy Light and Void are merely the lighting shining forth, and the darkness moving towards, a mythical God and Devil - who were never given personas such as these in their cultural prehistory. Instead, they were simply ascribed to as "philosophies".
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No gods does not necessarily mean no religion. I would think your society could still be primarily secular, but there would still be a variety of cults/religions. The difference would be similar to what we have here on earth - no direct divine intervention, but still a strong basis in faith.
Clerics would possibly draw their spells from their faith in themselves and their beliefs (their soul?), rather than being gifted directly from a deity.
This could lead to some strong role playing opportunities, as no one's faith could really be proven, but separate belief systems can and do exist, none any more right than any other.
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In my campaign world, the civilized religion does not include gods. Instead, civilized people associate with the Temple of Virtues. Each Virtue is associated with three domains; clerics choose a Virtue that they must seek to embody and pursue. Essentially the Virtue is acting in the place of a god for members of the civilized nations.
If this idea interests you, I'm happy to reproduce my list of Virtues and their associated domains.
This sounds great I would love to see your list if you could. It would provide a guide for my own endeavors.
The Temples and Church of Virtue
Among the civilized nations, religion is not connected to any deity or personality. Instead, priests are called to a virtuous life, and specifically called to follow and perfect one of the Eight Virtues.Most citizens regard the pursuit of the Virtues as being worthwhile for all civilized people, and reflect on one or more virtues in order to “be a better person”, asking priests for guidance in doing so where appropriate.
The Eight Virtues are: Beauty, Charity, Diligence, Leadership, Liberty, Nature, Valor, and Wisdom.
All good-aligned priests of Virtue have access to the Good domain in addition to the domains listed for each Virtue.
Charity
Saint Tarba taught the importance of coming to the aid of others. Showing care and the compassion to those in need is central to the role of a follower of Charity. This Virtue is seen as the most closely embodied by the activities of the Temples themselves and is very visible to non-priest civils.
Healing
Protection
Community
Valor
Saint Brelg taught about the need to face evil directly and defeat it without compromise or remorse. Later, Saint Awra welcomed the first paladins into the temple and emphasized the role of Valor priests in cleansing the civilized world of undead. More paladins follow Valor than any other Virtue.
Repose
Strength
War
Leadership
The elven priests of the Nikricar family taught that to serve Virtue for a person of means and talent requires that you lead others to virtue. The entire line became known as the Saints of Nikricar (First through Twelfth). Most Temples are administrated by followers of Leadership.
Glory
Nobility
Community
Wisdom
Scholarship is critical to Virtue, argued Saint Belliadron – and so some priests perfect the truth found in the scholarly arts as a divine calling.
Knowledge
Magic
Rune
Beauty
The great priest and poet Saint Trafall demonstrated that a perfect aesthetic is recognized by all civilized beings as embodying the good, and showed an example of how to follow it. Although long believed by gnomes everywhere, it was Saint Trelladimifiwack who finally showed that a sense of humor is an important part of the aesthetic sense, adding a uniquely gnomish touch to this Virtue.
Charm
Glory
Trickery [reflavored "Humor"]
Diligence
Hard work, longsuffering, and perseverance are the heart of a virtuous life – so taught Saint Aurelius. Dwarves are often called to follow Diligence. This Virtue ties into a cultural respect for the behavior of obedient slaves and workers.
Artifice
Luck [reflavored "Focus"]
Strength
Freedom
Self-reliance and autonomy are core pursuits of this Virtue, as instructed by the husband-and-wife pair, Saints Kel and Naiah. Followers of this Virtue are also called to foster and demonstrate cross-racial and cross-cultural tolerance (at least among the civilized races).
Chaos
Liberation
Travel
Nature
Saint Vartiis taught respect for the natural world, preaching that Virtue can exist outside of the trappings of cities and communities by returning to the world as it was first uncovered. Although seeming somewhat alien to civilized society, the druids play an important role in delivering to civilization the values found in the primal world outside it.
There is no in-world distinction between priests of nature and druids; although formally taught at seminary, they form their own independent community as well where they are (secretly) taught druidic tenets which fall outside of the teachings of the Saints. Although Saint Vartiis was himself part of his druidic community, the teachings of his studied at seminary were those he presented to the priesthood at large; “sanitized” of his (and druids’) less “acceptable” views.
Clerics who follow Nature as their Virtue may take Druidic as a bonus language.
Air
Animal
Earth
Fire
Plant
Sun
Water
Weather
Something else to consider, if only for yourself: why are there no gods? Were there never gods? Or did the people of the land overthrow the organized religions of the world? That could have some significant effects on the social structures of your world.That is something I didn't consider. Well I would say that maybe there were gods at one point but after the cataclysm that brought the dark mist into the world the gods were cut off from world. That is an interesting idea.
What if that magical event somehow affected the gods so that now they are slumbering or something. Unconsciously able to channel divine power into the world but not give it direction. That would account for the cleric of anything approach.
Hmmm...it would seem to me that if there were once gods that granted power to the clerics, and now they're gone, isolated, sleeping, or otherwise unable to grant that power...wouldn't the clerics be powerless? In other words, instead of there being clerics of nothing/anything, wouldn't there be NO clerics? Filling the void of no divine power would be all sorts of arcane power and military might, I'd think. And then, what of demons, devils, angels, and all manner of undead? Would they not be free to act as they willed, introducing a whole celestial-war-on-earth kind of thing, coupled with a literal land of the living dead?
An approach like this would make the world very different...basically eliminating a whole class from the PHB. On the other hand, you could always say that there's residual power floating around somewhere, and that clerics are now simply very rare and either highly prized or publicly ostracized.
Whew...the mind reels from the domino effect of removing deities! Makes me very glad we don't live in a world like that!!
Lastly one thing that I'm not sure about and would like some input on is how a godless society would run in a iron age/medieval setting that pathfinder and subsequently my world runs in.
Probably about the same as our own iron age/medieval history ;)
There would still be religion, churches/temples, and powerful clergy.
However - if there aren't any gods - who is granting those divine spells?
Lastly one thing that I'm not sure about and would like some input on is how a godless society would run in a iron age/medieval setting that pathfinder and subsequently my world runs in.
Probably about the same as our own iron age/medieval history ;)
There would still be religion, churches/temples, and powerful clergy.
However - if there aren't any gods - who is granting those divine spells?
+1
You may have no gods, or just one god, but different religions are always here.
If you only have one god you can still have different religions, like happens with Christianism (or Christianity, or whatever it is written). You may have different divine Apostles that care of each religion.
If there's no source of divine power you may use Ley-Lines as the way used by clerics to "leech" power from the faith of the people, in example (I like this one, because Ley-lines are cool and can bring you a lot of ideas for campaigns and adventures).
Or say that a cleric can cast spells by the power of his own faith.
In my campaign world, the civilized religion does not include gods. Instead, civilized people associate with the Temple of Virtues. Each Virtue is associated with three domains; clerics choose a Virtue that they must seek to embody and pursue. Essentially the Virtue is acting in the place of a god for members of the civilized nations.
If this idea interests you, I'm happy to reproduce my list of Virtues and their associated domains.
This sounds great I would love to see your list if you could. It would provide a guide for my own endeavors.
The Temples and Church of Virtue
Among the civilized nations, religion is not connected to any deity or personality. Instead, priests are called to a virtuous life, and specifically called to follow and perfect one of the Eight Virtues.
Most citizens regard the pursuit of the Virtues as being worthwhile for all civilized people, and reflect on one or more virtues in order to “be a better person”, asking priests for guidance in doing so where appropriate.
The Eight Virtues are: Beauty, Charity, Diligence, Leadership, Liberty, Nature, Valor, and Wisdom.
All good-aligned priests of Virtue have access to the Good domain in addition to the domains listed for each Virtue.Charity
Saint Tarba taught the importance of coming to the aid of others. Showing care and the compassion to those in need is central to the role of a follower of Charity. This Virtue is seen as the most closely embodied by the activities of the Temples themselves and is very visible to non-priest civils.
Healing
Protection
CommunityValor
Saint Brelg taught about the need to face evil directly and defeat it without compromise or remorse. Later, Saint Awra welcomed the first paladins into the temple and emphasized the role of Valor priests in cleansing the civilized world of undead. More paladins follow Valor than any other Virtue.
Repose
Strength
WarLeadership
The elven...
That is a very neat list and I like the idea. Did you ever think about doing a list for sins? Just seems to me there should be the flip side to the coin.