Optimized Witch?

[Vopro]

My fighter has recently died, so I want to makea witch around level 8. I also want her to be amazing!

So does anyone know of any optimized witch builds? I've been searching the APG and general threads, but lack any real understanding as of yet.

[Vopro]

I suppose nobody has any fully optimized builds as of yet?

I'd create my own from advice that's already been given, but most I can find are more pertaining to specific flavors. No luck there unfortunately.

[wraithstrike]

Vopro wrote:

I suppose nobody has any fully optimized builds as of yet?

I'd create my own from advice that's already been given, but most I can find are more pertaining to specific flavors. No luck there unfortunately.

What do you want the witch to be good at, and what books are allowed?

[Vopro]

The only two books allowed are going to be the core rule book and the APG. Boring, I know! As for what type of role, I suppose it just really depends. Right now our party consists of:

Druid, Rogue, Bard, another character choosing either fighter or cleric, and then me as the witch.

So I would either need to be the main healer, or possibly a secondary healer with a major focus on controlling?

[Saedar]

Vopro wrote:

The only two books allowed are going to be the core rule book and the APG. Boring, I know! As for what type of role, I suppose it just really depends. Right now our party consists of:

Druid, Rogue, Bard, another character choosing either fighter or cleric, and then me as the witch.

So I would either need to be the main healer, or possibly a secondary healer with a major focus on controlling?

I'm currently playing a Witch at level 6. If you are going for a more controller-esque character like mine is, I get TONS of mileage out of Evil Eye. It's a beautiful thing.

Also, for spell and feat choice, looking at Wizard/Cleric CharOp guides, you can get a pretty good idea of what you can do as their spell lists both contribute to the Witch's. Just try to not do too many things at once. For a secondary healer/Controller kind of setup, you may want to pick up Healing Hex and memorize any other healing spells the main healer can't as needed.

[Vopro]

Evil eye is definitely one hex that I've been noticing people drool over. One thing I'm wondering is if can be stacked over and over, to add the different effects and have them all going at once on one cackle?

The healing hex I really haven't been looking over. It looks like it only affects the target once per day, so wouldn't spells covering the heals be more optimized?

Just curious. :)

[hogarth]

Try this thread for some witchy advice:
WITCH FOR PFS HOW TO IMPROVE

[Saedar]

Vopro wrote:

Evil eye is definitely one hex that I've been noticing people drool over. One thing I'm wondering is if can be stacked over and over, to add the different effects and have them all going at once on one cackle?

The healing hex I really haven't been looking over. It looks like it only affects the target once per day, so wouldn't spells covering the heals be more optimized?

Just curious. :)

1.) I would say no. Basically, you are using the same ability and like abilities don't stack. That said, I can see the argument that they are different effects. In my home game, we said no.

2.) Here's the thing. As a secondary healer, you will probably be doing emergency healing (ie: Hey look! Tom is down and bleeding out! Heals!) or filling healing slots to shore up holes in your primary healer. If you can have the healing on hand without spell slots, then it gives you access to more resources for your controlling. Dedicating spell slots to healing puts you more in the primary healer category.

EDIT: I should also say that if alternative healing methods are available to you (wands, potions) fairly easily, it is not a bad idea to skip on Healing in lieu of another Hex. Maybe Slumber.

[wraithstrike]

Vopro wrote:

The only two books allowed are going to be the core rule book and the APG. Boring, I know! As for what type of role, I suppose it just really depends. Right now our party consists of:

Druid, Rogue, Bard, another character choosing either fighter or cleric, and then me as the witch.

So I would either need to be the main healer, or possibly a secondary healer with a major focus on controlling?

Unless you get a high point buy the druid will probably be battle field control or a melee druid. Witches are good at debuffs. Evil Eye is annoying, just remember that when you are within 30 feet to have a meat shield between you and the bad guy you are harassing.

[Saedar]

wraithstrike wrote:

Vopro wrote:

The only two books allowed are going to be the core rule book and the APG. Boring, I know! As for what type of role, I suppose it just really depends. Right now our party consists of:

Druid, Rogue, Bard, another character choosing either fighter or cleric, and then me as the witch.

So I would either need to be the main healer, or possibly a secondary healer with a major focus on controlling?

Unless you get a high point buy the druid will probably be battle field control or a melee druid. Witches are good at debuffs. Evil Eye is annoying, just remember that when you are within 30 feet to have a meat shield between you and the bad guy you are harassing.

Or you could Fly. Flight makes life fun.

[Ikos]

low to mid level Witch optimized:

Elven Witch with dreamspeaker racial feat
Dreamspeaker: A few elves have the ability to tap into the
power of sleep, dreams, and prescient reverie. Elves with
this racial trait add +1 to saving throw DCs for spells of the
divination school and sleep effects they cast.

+ - pump racial Int. to 20. to raise DC of slumber/ at 4 & 8 to 21

Slumber [time with coup de grace from guy with big axe, sword, etc...]

Flight [threefold - defensive]

Healing [one free healing/ party member is nothing to scoff at - in a 4 person party, you just gained that many extra spell levels/day
----plus, wand of cure X - as soon as possible and you've just usurped the cleric's bread and butter

Pick up elemental familair to access wiz./sorc. shock and awe (if neeeded)

Debuff minor hexes require a failed save to be truly effective, they sound good but in practice, at least in my exp., seemed to fall short - why have the enemy make a failed save against something more delibitating (slumber) -of course not applicable in all situations. In a larger party the stakes might not be a s high and there might be more room for succesfully nickle and diming the enemy.

Feats: Improved Init. (get the drop), Extra Hex (if neccesary)

[underling]

Saedar wrote:

Or you could Fly. Flight makes life fun.

So true. The fly hex is AWESOME. feather fall as needed and a swim bonus at 1st, levitate 1/day at 3rd and finally flight at 5th. Except it can be used in one minute intervals. As fights typically take 10 rounds or less, you can fly in 5 fights a day at 5th level. Pretty sweet.

By 8th level you have access to 5 hexes, and all of the hexes that improve as you advance already have. Healing is now 1 cure mod per person, per 24 hours. charm is improve attitude 2 steps, etc... there are a lot of useful hexes. Take your witch in whatever direction you like.

I also can't overstate the value of mage armor and false life. These are mandatory choices as they are 1hour/lvl spells for wizards, and as a witch you get both.

[rangerjeff]

I'll just revive this thread rather than create a new one.

So, some specific questions.

Elf or human? Elf to get percept, get through spell resist, and alt racial trait increasing slumber DC by 1. Human to get extra feat. Either way stats are about the same.

Stats I have with 20 point buy are 7/15/12/20/10/8, +1 Dex at 4, and this is with human.

Feats Accursed Hex and Extra Hex at 1.

Hexes Cackle and Misfortune.

Go Elf and give up Accursed Hex til 3? Can't see bypassing Extra Hex at 1 and not taking Cackle.

I like Misfortune a lot as a debuff, next hex Evil Eye or Slumber?

Had to go Abadar to get Eyes of the City for Perception as a Class Skill, another trait to get Diplomacy as a class skill (playing PFS), Greensting plus Dex gives init +6. Good decisions?

[CalebTGordan]

You should read the guides on witches. They are all very good.

Don't do healer, instead you should focus on debuffing. With your party consisting of a druid and bard, and a possible cleric, you have healing done already. The bard buffs the party, the druid handles summoning and battlefield control.

Look into ruining and debuffing enemies. Evil Eye, Misfortune, and Slumber are a must have hexes for this role. Look at the guides for good spells. Go for high initiative as well.

[rangerjeff]

Hey, thanks, but all the posts above mine are 2 1/2 years old... was just searching and found it and decided to add my post to it for context, in case others are looking at witches.

So, yes, so far we're on the same page, but I was hoping for a more precision analysis of my build so far...

[CalebTGordan]

Ah... in that case go Elf. They are much more geared towards magic users based on Intelligence.

The stats look fine.

I would go Evil Eye. Cackle and Misfortune are both great for your second hex. Slumber is also a great hex, but you can get away with the sleep spell until you pick up it up.

I would suggest the Reactionary trait for another +2 to initiative. Get rid of the Diplomacy trait.

[Jakynth]

Saedar wrote:

Vopro wrote:

Evil eye is definitely one hex that I've been noticing people drool over. One thing I'm wondering is if can be stacked over and over, to add the different effects and have them all going at once on one cackle?

The healing hex I really haven't been looking over. It looks like it only affects the target once per day, so wouldn't spells covering the heals be more optimized?

Just curious. :)

1.) I would say no. Basically, you are using the same ability and like abilities don't stack. That said, I can see the argument that they are different effects. In my home game, we said no.

Thats exactly how evil eye works, you can hit a target multiple times each effecting something different, and cackle works right with it you could have 8 different creatures all effected with 3 evil eye effects all being prolonged with cackle within 30' of the witch. Very strong, but all of that still doesn't kill an enemy by itself.

[n00bxqb]

Magical Lineage for the trait and choose Ill Omen for the spell.

Wreak havoc on everything with a mind with Quickened Ill Omen spells.

Swift Action: Cast Quickened Ill Omen
Standard Action: Slumber

Target rolls 3 times to save, takes the worst result. Big dumb fighter is able to Coup de Grace target, easy kill.

Magical Lineage
Ill Omen

[rangerjeff]

Hmmm... okay. Init now up to +9 (going Elf I swapped ability scores to 7/16/12/20//11/7). Still using single feat for Extra Hex so I have both Cackle and Evil Eye. I know it's just a level, but I'm still thinking Misfortune over evil eye. At 3rd take Accursed Hex, 4th Slumber, 5th Extra Hex for Fly.

But, Evil Eye will always last at least 1 round, and up to 8 if target fails will save, and is versatile since I can target AC, attack, and saves separately.

But, for the BBEG encounter, Ill Omen then Misfortune, Cackle and Evil Eye and it's over (so long as I have a meat shield...) But either way that combo has to wait til 2nd level.

But Misfortune (with cackle) OMFG. Roll 2d20 and take the lowest. You only have a 25% chance of an 11 or higher (1d20 is 50% chance of an 11+.) Except in cases where you're looking at like a +19 to hit BBEG against everybody's AC's of 25 or less, Misfortune is going to be an absolutely crushing Hex.

Playing PFS I hate to suck at Diplomacy, but, meh, it's just Prestige Points (faction missions...)

Oh, and the 8 1st level spells I'm grabbing are (*=planning on memorizing unless foreknowledge of situation suggests otherwise):
*Cause Fear
Charm Person
Command
Ear Piercing Scream
*Ill Omen
*Mage Armor
Obscuring Mist
Unseen Servant

[rangerjeff]

n00bxqb wrote:

Magical Lineage for the trait and choose Ill Omen for the spell.

Wreak havoc on everything with a mind with Quickened Ill Omen spells.

Swift Action: Cast Quickened Ill Omen
Standard Action: Slumber

Target rolls 3 times to save, takes the worst result. Big dumb fighter is able to Coup de Grace target, easy kill.

Magical Lineage
Ill Omen

Ooo, that's planning ahead (I'm bad at that...)

Magical lineage allows me to, say, Quicken without bumping the spell level up... but I need to be able to Quicken, too, yeah? Feat? Rod? But yeah, getting that on Ill Omen is sounding better than going Abadar for Perception as a class skill.

Edit: and, stressing strongly, I'm PFS, which means, to me, being well rounded is important, since I never know the party I'll be playing with. Which is why I was thinking of the traits for Diplo and Percept. Also, along those lines, I may want to not dump Cha so much, and at least when I get a headband of intellect and improved familiar, go for UMD for the wand of Ill Omen usage...

[Kazejin]

Saedar wrote:

1.) I would say no. Basically, you are using the same ability and like abilities don't stack. That said, I can see the argument that they are different effects. In my home game, we said no.

Evil Eye doesn't stack for the same penalty (meaning multiple Evil Eyes can't all be targeting AC, for example), but you are allowed to give multiple Evil Eyes to the same target as long as they are debuffing different statistics. It's in the FAQ for the Advanced Player's Guide, question answered by Sean K. Reynolds.

It might sound broken at first glance, but you have to consider how many rounds of setup it takes to get numerous Evil Eye's off. For the time investment (and remembering that said witch is spending all this time on one enemy), it's perfectly fine balance wise.

-------------
As for healing, you do not want a witch as the primary healer unless you have access to Ultimate Magic. The Hedge Witch archetype plus the Healing Patron from that book makes primary healer witches very much viable. But with APG only, I'd stick with secondary "pinch" healing. The Healing Hex is still a good investment either way, though. A free, essentially spontaneous heal for each party member goes a long ways, even if it is once per person per day.

[WerePox47]

A buddy in my game grp runs a half-orc scared witch and he loves it.. Biggest upside is that con is your caster stat, so its very sad.. Stack con with a decent dex and its all u need.. The natural armor boost is just gravy and not having ur spellbook die is a super plus.. I would play no other style witch personally..